This forum is a bit too quiet. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Give your opinion on Iraq, terrosism in the world and USA.

Is that too sensible to touch or you prefer to stay away from politics?

Why don't you say whether Iraq should or should not be leveled, your opinion on 11th of September, on who did it and so on ...

Jeez here I was trying to be less feisty in the forums, and you're trying to stir things up <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think Iraq is a really hard situation. I get email from people in Iraq who are miserable with the situation there. One guy said his 24-year old daughters were thrown into jail for 3 days because they went to a birthday party that also had men there. They were 24!! I can't even imagine living like that.

But what do you do? Anything you do to 'punish' the country really punishes the people there. And things you do to try to help the people - like giving food and clothing - usually just gets grabbed by the military anyway ...

Well, it is up for you to decide, whether you want to participate or not. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you prefer me to shut up and keep on discussing what Auron has in his jug, well ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This is a forum, a plce where we can talk about anything, I guess that more sensitive matters are also more interesting. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Correct me if I'm wrong.

On one hand yes, but on the other it is THEIR lifestyle. Their traditions and religion. It is for THEM to decide what to do and what not to. Those girls should have been aware by that age of the local laws. It may look bad to other countries, but it is the right way for them and you (I mean exterior world) have no right to judge them and much less to punish them. Tell me, what right do you (and in this case - USA) have to attack Iraq? Who gave it to you? UN certainly did not. It was USA's idea to put embargo on Iraq, so, the poor people suffer there because of you (USA).

I don't mind debating at all <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just want the record to show I was lured into this one <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, just because a ruling party sets down rules doesn't mean they're right and that the majority of the people WANT those rules. It just means those in power are forcing them onto the people. Most people in Iraq don't like the rules they have to live by.

Take Nazi Germany. They were happily killing millions of Jews. Let's say that they weren't attacking other countries, they were just "minding their own business" passing laws that Jews were to be killed, and killing them. Shouldn't the outside world step in and try to keep the Jews from being murdered? Or should they just watch and say "Oh well, Hitler is in charge and this is his new rule, so I guess it's ok"?

As far as Iraq goes, they were told to let in inspectors to prove they weren't making weapons that could destroy all life on the planet. They keep refusing. All evidence says they are actively working on this, and past evidence shows they like to use this sort of weapon.

It's like Fluffy, the cat we just had to give away. You can keep saying "Fluffy don't scratch my leg into shreds" but if that cat keeps causing damage and now your leg is infected, you have to take other steps, isolate the cat, remove its claws. You don't just sit there letting the cat shred you until you die.

If your neighbor has fire-bombed you twice already and your kids are sleeping upstairs, and you catch him in your back yard assembling ingredients, and ask him to stop and he doesn't, it's time to do something. And since we've shown that Star Wars doesn't really work, there aren't many other ways of putting a 'wall' between the US and Iraq.

It is such an interesting topic indeed. Before anything, I want to let you know that I'm in friendly mood and want to debate and discuss things, not insult you or your country. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Read your second paragraph again. You can easily put "USA" in place of "Iraq" and change a couple of words and it will make great sence. USA is in power nowadays and dictates the W H O L E world what to do, many don't like it but are forced to obey.

Iraq has given a "GO" on letting the inspectors in, and it is USA who say "NO!" ... odd behavior, isn't it? USA are not interested in letting the inspectors in, because they will come, find nothing and USA will loose the great opportunity to exersice in bombing and also they will not achieve what they want - have that country under complete control.

You know, we're living in civilised and "democratic" world and all that. Everything is supposed to be solved with diplomacy all that. But there many wars going on in the world. MANY. USA say: "Sadam is a bad guy, we need to level the country with the ground to prevent the strike." And they are ready to attack. Tell me what is IT if not a declaration of war and invasion. Everything is surrounded by nice and very democratic props, everything looks honest and respectable, but behind all that it is a war over territory.

Think again, EVEN IF Iraq had some kind of weapon. Do you think they are stupid enough to use it? They launch it, no matter how strong it is, it will not erase the world, and then what? They will be leveled by countless nukes falling down on their heads.

As for terrorism, I hope you don't think that Iraq is the real source of them, do you? They don't have enough money to buy food, I'm not talking about supplying terrorist. But the source is close - Saudi Arabia is the place.

What has Iraq done in the past, I don't really remember, refresh me. Have they declared a war on USA or something. Launched a nuke. It was USA who declared a war on defenceless country and won it with ease. They wouldn't fight Russia, but Iraq ... USA needs a small victorious war to cover their economical problems, Iraq is the one chosen to beat.

WWII is a different matter, but interesting too. Who was the outside world to step in? - Noone. When Hitler srarted the march on Europe taking one country after another, it was then when everyone gor preoccupied. By the way, it was the fault of those who won the WWI in WWII. Germany had no choice, they were put in such conditions that it would be a matter of time. As for killing Jews and other undesired in Germany minorities ... well, they had their own idea about the world. USSR won the war and installed it's regime, nobody said anything, since the right is the one who won. "They defeated Nazi's", if Germany had won the war, then they would be saying "They defeated kommunism". By the way, USA had nothing against the Nazi Germany, they even supported it in a certain way. And the fact that they gladly accepted all the Nazi scientists is also very interesting. Aren't they bad? Aren't they the ones who were inventing the new means on how to kill people? - Or maybe by offering their knowledge and services, they could take off the guilt?

Speaking of evidence, why is it that all of it comes from USA? I thought that James Bond was a British agent.

The world is full of economic and politic interests. Nobody cares for noone if it is not in someone's interests. And those who try to, usually have little success. There are interests behind any war, any conflict.

One more question ... take it easy. Why do YOU think everyone, especially the arab world ... errr ... hates USA? I've seen it on TV, that people in America really don't understand why.

I hope I didn't cross the line too much. Feel free to defend your point. Don't get angry with me. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Try to be objective, don't let your emotions make your thoughts ... oh, wait, it was in another topic. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Have a nice day.

I don't think having anyone dictate is a good idea. But I do believe in self defense. Those are two completely different issues.

I think it's fairly common knowledge that Iraq *does* have the weapons. I haven't read any news report from any country that believes Iraq is innocent in this situation. However, Iraq has been hiding what it's been doing. And the current concern is that the manner in which Iraq is allowing inspectors in, after fighting it for so long, is specifically designed to prevent the inspectors from properly inspecting. The US is saying that they want to *properly* inspect for weapons. Iraq is saying "you can only inspect us in the way we design, which will prevent you from finding what we're working on".

Do you really not know what Iraq has done that is hostile? I can find many, many URLs for you if you haven't been keeping up with the past 20 years of history involving Iraq ...

Self defence, right. :rolleyes:

The inspectors that were in Iraq the last time have searched everything, including the places they shouldn't have. Iraq says that it wishes to let in new inspectors with no apriori conditions and no restrictions. You say they don't show anything, they are cheating and hiding something and you know that, must be telepathy.

What evidence do the USA have? You say a lot: "Iraq is bad, we have an evidence!" and then what? Nobody hasn't seen any yet.

As for the wepons, USA and their servant (to be polite) - GB, are the only ones that think so. So, you haven't really read any other news.

Are you talking about Kuwait? What are the connections? Iraq has attacked Kuwait, not USA. But of course, Bush the elder, couldn't have missed such an opportunity.

You haven't answered the question, by the way, is something wrong with it? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just don't understand one thing, do you REALLY believe what you say or you want to tell me all that democracy-humanity-independance-human rights cr*p to support the legend?

That's weird, isn't it ... you know less about your own country than the outside world does ... that's also called "brainwashing".

Sorry, if I'm being mean and sarcastic and maybe even rude here. I just cannot hear you saying all that with a completely serious expression in your face. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Don't get offended.

You were saying Iraq is peaceful and would never use weapons. I was contesting that. Are you now admitting that Iraq is not known to be a peaceful country?

Iraq has ADMITTED to having the weapons. Read here, from British research:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/iraqdossier.pdf

"Under Saddam Hussein Iraq developed chemical and biological weapons, acquired missiles allowing it to attack neighboring countries with these weapons and persistently tried to develop a nuclear bomb. Saddam has used chemical weapons, both against Iran and against his own people. Following the Gulf War, Iraq had to admit to all this. And in the ceasefire of 1991 Saddam agreed unconditionally to give up his weapons of mass destruction".

This isn't brainwashing <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do you agree or disagree that he did these things? I have to say it's brainwashing if you somehow don't know about these things ...

If you're saying "I can't believe anything the US or UK says" (which is being a bit overzealous in your anti-US belief, but OK), here is a quote from GERMANY. Or do you believe they're part of this gigantic lie-about-Iraq conspiracy?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/germany/02/24/iraq.weapons/

"BERLIN, Germany -- Saddam Hussein may be able to fire nuclear weapons at Iraq's neighbours within three years, Germany intelligence service has said. The service also reported it may be able to hit Europe with missiles within five years. "

Iraq by the way is the one who refused to let inspectors in since 1998:

"Iraq barred U.N. weapons inspectors in 1998, making it virtually impossible to keep track of what the West believes are Baghdad's efforts to develop its nuclear, chemical and biological arsenal. "

In fact, they had been CAUGHT at the development which is why they locked the doors:

http://www.iaea.or.at/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/nwp2.html

"IAEA Action Team's extensive inspection activities in Iraq between 1991 and 1998 resulted in a technically coherent picture of Iraq's clandestine nuclear programme. The programme was very well funded and was aimed at the indigenous development and exploitation of technologies for the production of weapons-grade nuclear material and production and manufacturing of nuclear weapons. "

OK so they inspect from 1991 to 1998. They say "Look, we have proof you're making nuclear weapons." And Iraq says "You can't come in any more".

So now you're going to say the UN weapons team was lying?

<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Of course. UN, like NATO is under complete control of USA, didn't you know? If they really had anything so really bad, they would have been attacked earlier. There is no evidence, that is why USA had to be patient for all these years. Inspectors were "barred" because they were spying, not inspecting.

"Iraq barred U.N. weapons inspectors in 1998, making it virtually impossible to keep track of what the West believes are Baghdad's efforts to develop its nuclear, chemical and biological arsenal."

The word "West" is better to be changed for "USA and GB" ...

<img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Germany ... you must be kidding me, really. Are you for REAL? Maybe you will qoute Belgium or maybe even Ukraine? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Find me a quote from Russia or maybe China. All Europe is under USA ... France MAYBE to a lesser degree ...

Iraq is not a peaceful country. All peaceful countries currently lie under USA. There is NO PEACE ON EARTH ...

I'm not anti-US, Lisa, <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't really care, since it doesn't affect me in any way. There are even things I like about USA, not many, but there are. But you must be leaving in a dream world, if you think that USA, UN and similar follow the ideals of equality, justice, peace and such ... there are no such things ... For instance, I can easily admit, that Spain is one of the politically weakest countries in Europe and they will do anything USA would say, but since Spain has no influence, USA don't touch it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Spain WAS against the attack on Iraq, but then Mr.Bush called se�or Aznar, and this one has immediately changed his opinion on this matter ... do you think that Bush is so intelligent ( <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) that he convinced the guy about something? Has given him some proof? Of course not ... he probably said something along the lines of "If you don't support us, we will not support you in your fight against ETA. And you will generally regret about your disobedience in the future.". It is this simple. So is with Germany and all other countries. France is a bit more independent and allows itself the luxury to express their own opinion from time to time. No comments about Britts ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you won't believe published reports by the reporting organizations, and insist that everyone in the world is lying except for you, then I suppose I'm helpless to make a case. A discussion relies on contesting the points brought forth, not in flippantly discounting every argument as "Oh, that's a lie. Oh that's a lie too. Yup another lie."

Everybody can't be lying. And, as pointed out, Iraq already admitted to having done this before. Unless you feel they were lying too.

Whether the UN inspectors were spying or not is immaterial. The point was what they *found*.

And what have they "found"? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Nobody has ever seen WHAT HAVE THEY FOUND ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You still haven't answered that maybe somewhat unpleasant question ...

And here are a couple more, very straigt question that don't require much thinking to answer:

A) Do you think that Europe is independent from USA in their opinions? (that is: they say and do what they think and want)

B) Do you think that USA only has self defence, humanity and justice interests in Iraq and in the world in general?

Don't go around too much, these are easy to answer. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> For me, the answer to both is NO with capital "N" and "O" ...

There is nothing bad in this ... USA is powerful and they rule the world as they like. There is nothing unnatural and sick in it. Everyone doesn't like it, but there is nothing to be done. Rome had ruled the world the same way before they fell. Whole Europe is weak and rotten and never can seriously argue with USA. The only countries that oppose are France, Russia and China ... the last two have always been USA's greatest enemies. And France, well, since they have nukes too and they also are the permanent members of defence comitee in UN, they have some "courage" left ... All of this is very natural, logic and quite simple ... Iraq having any weapons has nothing to do with this ...