BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Random Thoughts

I believe that Debbie is one of the "coolest" (perhaps a comprehensible insider joke for some of you who follow rambling in many directions RT religiouly or not) editors and forum posters at BellaOnline. However, which is also quite "cool," we not only have differences of opinion as to the "source" of the Universe, but less universally important as to the administration of forums.

So, I strongly urge you, if you don't already, to read Debbie's articles (she sure knows about nature and sentient lifeforms!) and, if you are of a like mind or not, join in her forum, whether as a respectful and hopefully freethinking poster or as an interested observer/lurker.

As far as my friend's belief in God and Debbie's, I sincerely feel that is a constructive and positive aspect of their value/belief systems providing much meaning to their lives as it is an integral part of making them the special people that they are.

It's just as I wrote recently, I am of the opinion that religious belief and faith is largely psychologically predicated on how the vast majority (billions upon billions) of people want to see the Universe and not how it really is, despite scientific evidence to the contrary.

No debate is necessary because if one is of my opinion and one is of another 180 degree different opinion, never the twain shall meet...no matter the evidence...

I certainly respect your opinion, even if it differs from mine

I thank you for the sincere compliment, and for encouraging others to visit my site and forum for a peek after perusing the posts on Random Thoughts.

In honor of the man himself and the article that I wrote, "Clarence Darrow the non-Fence Sitting Agnostic," that is currently number one in the Top Ten at the A/A site even though it no longer exists (talk about miracles!), below are some of my favorite quotes (some that appeared previously in RT while it was just evolving) from that illustrious defense attorney of the Scopes ("Monkey") trial fame:

"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Do you think in the above quote that Darrow was just talking about theists or also about atheists?

"Lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for."

"I do not believe in God because I do not believe in Mother Goose."

"To think is to differ."

."The origin of the absurd idea of immortal life is easy to discover; it is kept alive by hope and fear, by childish faith, and by cowardice."

"The best that we can do is to be kindly and helpful toward our friends and fellow passengers who are clinging to the same speck of dirt while we are drifting side by side to our common doom."

"Some of you say religion makes people happy. So does laughing gas."

"History repeats itself, and that's one of the things that's wrong with history."

In a freethinking sort of way more Clarence Darrowism...

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."

"The world is made up for the most part of morons and natural tyrants, sure of themselves, strong in their own opinions, never doubting anything."

"I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered a hell of a lot more if I had been understood."

“The pursuit of truth shall set you free - even if you never catch up with it”

More on Clarence Darrow...

In the "Twit" article, "The 50 Most Brilliant Atheists of All Time," Clarence Darrow at #8 on the list really caught me attention or better yet, caused me to question who really was without knowledge.

Quoting his clever ideological self-identification of himself, "I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means," the comments about him missing-the-pointedly went on to contend "yet he wrote essays with titles like "Absurdities of the Bible" and "The Myth of the Soul," suggesting that his agnosticism was strong enough to be considered atheism."

Well freethinking, non-zealot-like, attentive and open-minded followers of RT, what is wrong with the article's labeling of CD as an atheist as by his own words in the above quote of his with self-awareness he considered himself to be an agnostic because he knew that he did not have all or even any of the answers to the Universal "life and death" questions?

Clearly, shame, shame, shame on those "Twit" folks , Clarence Darrow was an atheistic agnostic!

Then again that same article at #4 on the the list questioned whether the multi-exiled ancient Greek philosopher who as one of the earliest Utilitarians "taught that the aim of human life was to obtain joy and avoid grief, and that joy comes through prudence while grief arises from folly," Theodorus the Atheist, not to be confused with Theodorus the Mathemetician or The Beaver, was perhaps not really an atheist!

A lesson to be learned from all of the above is that atheism and agnosticism (or any belief system) should be not in the eye of the beholder but rather in the minds of the holder.

It was in "Heavenly Hillsdale," er, I mean Dayton, Tennessee in 1925 that the Scopes Trial which revolved around the teaching of evilution ("Give me that old time religion..."), er, I mean evolution in the public schools in the U.S. in which Clarence Darrow was the attorney hired by the ACLU for the defense of not only teacher John Scopes but more importantly for the scientific doctrines of evolution.

Now, eighty-eight years later that scientific issue is still being debated in the country along with another more recent scientific idea of great global concern, albeit not as religiously tinged.

Whether you are an agnostic, an atheist, a deist or a theist what do you think about the issues raised in the following two quotes that appeared in the most recent online Scientific American in the article "A Move Is Afoot to Keep Climate Science Out of Classrooms."?

"The common ancestry of living things and the mechanisms of inheritance explain why things are the way they are. Students and adults deprived of this knowledge are scientifically illiterate and ill prepared for life in a global, competitive world. Students given merely once-over or light instruction in evolution are woefully undereducated."
[i]

"Today's atmospheric warming rate is not regional; it is global. It affects land, sea and air. The scientific consensus is that humans are mostly responsible. Whatever our society decides to do about climate change, it must be based on solid science. We all will suffer if that science is compromised because of ideological opposition to its consequences. Beginning learners have a right to know what scientists have concluded. It is not right to allow religious, political or economic ideologies to trump instruction in science."

"Inherit the Wind" was not only an extremely apt title for the fictionalized play about the Scopes Trial. It could also be the title for the debate being played out vis-a-vis Global Warming as the wind that future generations inherit is in our hands, minds and living souls.

Scientific ignorance is never blissful- just ignorant!

I really like your post. I'm not certain why I was drawn to it. I'd come for a different reason actually.

But, yes, I do agree. If we were to all exchange nakedness, exposed on every level and understood or misunderstood, there would be even more blood-shed than there is now.

But, if you need something that makes each of us almost what I'd call "family"...look to water content - whether you believe in God or not or "On the fence."

Debbie, knows her stuff just as many of the Editors here whether (mentally) we agree w/them or not. I just can't get it...the division of it all. It's like the a rainbow (that's scientific) get yourself a prism...it's one light that occasionally reveals the components.

My husband recently told his dad, he doesn't believe in God.

I personally feel none of have exactly a clue as to what exactly it is that's out there, where we come from and time relativity for that matter. so I kind of prefer science, but


There's something, my husband is trying to explain - that though he doesn't believe in God, that's out there and not a single one of us could produce or reproduce it in the manner we seem to be intellectually proud of

It really feels like we've all got a lot to learn, mentally, physically and definately Spiritually (simple kindness).

In the natural and selective evolution of ideas Random Thoughts-wise, the following are the surviving fittest of species specific quotes from the original CD, this time immemorial, Charles Darwin:

“The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic”

“It is so easy to hide our ignorance under such expressions as the 'plan of creation,' 'unity of design,' etc..”

“An American Monkey after getting drunk on Brandy would never touch it again, and thus is much wiser than most men”

“...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance.”

“What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel work of nature!”

“Animals, whom we have made our slaves, we do not like to consider our equal.”

“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world”

“On the ordinary view of each species having been independently created, we gain no scientific explanation”

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."

"The very essence of instinct is that it's followed independently of reason."

"I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars."

"We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act."

Science and biology were my favorite areas of study in school. I think no matter what the information is it should be presented to everyone so that the individual can make a choice as to what to believe. There is a lot of truth and fascination to science, and it is a wonderful branch of knowledge that should be shared with all.

Yes, Debbie, along the lines of what you said, that is what my interpretation of freethinking is all about. Having access and exposure to all available information, scientific and non-scientific, and being allowed to freely make decisions based on those wondrous and miraculous resources.

However, I am totally without knowledge (and freely choose to remain so utterly nonplussed) as what/why the heck was being proselytized, er, I mean merchandised in the following thread that was posted by a spammer/guest/Red Wine Magazine on the Beauty Basics Forum:

"Red Wine Magazine (RW) embraces the sweet and rich ideology that God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Precious Holy Spirit are releasing raw power for those gifted, creative and talented believers who are looking for success in all the unlikely places.Red Wine operates on the premise that a paradigm shift is taking place, charging the atmosphere with new information that can be made available to anyone if they know where to look. We are offering a fresh new approach to every area of life. Go to :>>BellaOnline ALERT: Raw URLs are not allowed in these forums for security reasons. Please use UBB code. If you don't know how to do UBB code just post here for help - we will help out!"

What in "the unlikely places" in the name of Most Precious Blood is going on???

No wonder I don't drink any alcohol and I have never needed to be saved from doing so!!!