BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Catholicism If a Faith is not "True" it is "False" - debate

no. I don't care to do so.

For me as a non-Catholic looking at it, it looks pretty straightforward saying that the Catholic church believes that they are the only ones that are saved and will not go to Hell - the rest of us are damned whether we have accepted Christ or not.

My problem with that comes straight from the Bible, one of the 1st verses we ever learn John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

If God says that is what we must do to be saved, then what right does man have to put extra terms on it?

Michelle,
I believe we are One Body - the Body of Christ.

I would gather the Czarina believes the quote. The mainstream Catholic Church does not teach to that quote. She mentions Eugene IV as the author of the quote. Just because he was pope in the 1430s-40s does not make the quote dogma.

I do apologize for not being in the forums more lately. Life has been very hectic and busy. I do, however, pop in to make sure all is well in the forums even when I don't have time to post. And I truly don't think just because people choose not to enter a debate means there's a lack of interest in the Catholic Faith.

We've honestly gone round and round in this discussion. We are not supposed to interpret dogmas (or the Bible) individually - we look to the Magisterium of the Church, the teaching authority of our Catholic Church, to do so. And they have provided us with many tools to teach us what exactly the Church means when interpreting the dogma extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (outside the Church there is no salvation) as well as all other dogmas and beliefs of our Catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a just one of many viable and legitimate resources that has been quoted ad nauseam throughout this discussion. The Catechism has not been condemned and is endorsed and published by the Holy See. As such it is a viable resource for teaching us what our Church believes. Second Vatican Council has not been dismissed (and chances are it will not be), thus it is also a viable resource for our faith.

P.S.
Page 540 says no such thing.
"error of the Jacobites" cannot be found anywhere online nor inside the Encyclopedia.
Everything that was quoted from your "consultant" after this (UR3 etc..)is correct, and does not say that these people it speaks of can be saved outside the Church.. it implies that they can use these natural graces (that are found outside the Church) to obtain salvation - which is found only inside the Catholic Faith and Church. Not once did it say that these people remain in their current condition and remain un-converted.
Ok - now answer my question, please

"But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil."

�Let your speech be always in grace seasoned with salt: that you may know how you ought to answer every man.�

�Be not solicitous how or what you shall answer, or what you shall say; For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say.

What is interesting Michelle, is that you read the definition of "No Salvation..." You can see it for what it means - and it IS what it says. No one and nothing can remove it. I can write a million books or documents against it (and so can every Pope, Bishop and theologian ever to be), and it cannot undo what has been bound in heaven �as the absolute truth.�
Believe me, the Masons, Protestants, Liberals, etc... in every form (including that of Pope) have been trying to do so ever since it was proclaimed. You can see that liberals (self-hating Catholics) have attempted to bury this definition of �No Salvation�� And have done so well that when a Catholic of today sees it, they can�t take it (It is a hard saying�) The �new Catholics� are so apostate, that they will deny it immediately after seeing it, and work like mad to get rid of it.
They have been taught that it is more important to respect people, than their own faith � and what is scary: Christ predicted it, Fatima and Lourdes predicted it to the last dot. These Catholics have read about it, knew it was coming and still they ignore all the warnings, because they would rather gain the respect of mere humans, than fight for the Faith and Church�s Dogmas. I find it very weak that a person can so easily be taken in by the fear of offending people; and a very weak faith that will allow them to turn their backs on their own Church �He who is not with Me, is against Me.�

The dishonor it does to the thousands of missionary martyrs, alone, is enough to warrant a hefty curse � I fear for, and pray for those sad Catholics who will so quickly accept what is easy, and what gains the most for them in this life� because they have been written off.

No one replies to any of the posts since this went dry, due to the sadness of your sick father, in January (I hope he is well).

Remember this: If there was a person looking into the Catholic Faith and they walked away because you, in error, told them they don't need to convert to be saved, your hell will be twice as hard for every person lost. Times that by how many people have come to watch this particular debate, and left because they don't understand the crisis in the Church brought on by Liberals/Modernists/Humanists (aka Satanist - whether they know or want it or not).

They need to know that no matter what book they read - no matter WHO "commentaries" with an �interpretation� over a defined dogma of the faith, (even if it is a Pope speaking from his own personal errors) it cannot, and will not ever change what has been bound in heaven as the absolute Truth.
The definition is right there (see the previous posts), and there are two others (a total of three de fide statements on the "No Salvation.." dogma).

The Second Vatican Council did not re-define a single dogma (which would be impossible anyway) nor was it in ANY way a dogmatic council - is was PASTORAL - the definition is the same as it always was, and can never be changed (that is why Vat II wasn't a dogmatic council, it was impossible to bind an untruth, so the modernist just settled to confuse the masses with some "less-than-truthful� interpretations) Your Catechism and Vat II, is like a 3 of clubs while the defined dogma from a Dogmatic Council is the Trump ACE - there is NO �interpretation� of a DEFINITION � it IS the interpretation.
If you took that catechism into court and I brought my Bulls, they would laugh you out. Every musing the liberals have done has been covered (thank God) by another de fide statement AGAINST it. You name it, I will provide the DOGMATIC Council or Bull that says differently.
My confidence comes from the fact that I know the Catholic Church is the ONE FOLD that everyone MUST be brought into. I know Our Lord did not lie. The confusion of �interpretation� is man-made � while the definition is so plain as day that everyone who has read it (including YOU) knew exactly what it said� which one do you think came from the Holy Ghost? Do you sincerely believe that when God says �Yes� He really means �Maybe� or �No?� � it isn�t theologically possible.
If the True Faith of Catholicism was just "an option" there would not have been even ONE martyr nor a single missionary.

This article is a papal quote from Pope Gregory XVI�s Summo Iugiter Studio (On Mixed Marriages), of May 27, 1832. The following passage is on �no salvation outside the Church� for this post, I will only quote what is required for now:


5. Next let Us start with the things which concern the faith which, as We mentioned above, some are endangering in order to introduce greater freedom for mixed marriages. You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the apostles, martyred St. Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: �Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.� Moreover, St. Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: �Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ.� Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: �The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.� Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: �There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.� Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses and that which other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies."

The entire encylcical is here http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm


The subject matter of the encyclical is mixed marriages, which the Supreme Pontiff is decidedly against, as we can see from the gloriously nineteenth-century opening of the pope�s directive: �The Apostolic See has always ensured that the canons forbidding the marriages of Catholics with heretics have been observed religiously. Occasionally such marriages have been tolerated in order to avoid more serious scandals. But, even then, the Roman Pontiffs saw to it that the faithful were taught how deformed these marriages are and what spiritual dangers they present.�

And again, as you can see, what was always taught as the definition on "No Salvation..." was always understood as I have presented it in this debate. "But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies" ... and what has been presented by others has been, according to Pope Gregory XVI: 'audacious.'


begin promo: It isn't too late to join the "good fight" all it takes is the releasing of pride in yourself, and replacing it with pride for your Faith! You can be a success!.- end promo

I would like to give the url to a book available for free-viewing that everyone should read (not just Catholics).
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Catholic_Dogma:_Extra_Ecclesiam_Nullus_Omnino_Salvatur

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