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BellaOnline Editor Chimpanzee
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BellaOnline Editor Chimpanzee
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,189 |
Czarina, I do believe she is helping take care of her Dad right now. He was supposed to come home from the hospital right around Christmas-time, but was going to need some help around the house.
I'm sure she will appreciate your prayers and thoughts. And she did say in one of our editor's talks that her father had received the Sacrament of the Sick. (I'm not sure if that is different from the blessing for the sick).
Thanks for your thoughts!
Last edited by Spirituality&SFFMoviesEd; 01/27/09 08:03 PM.
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Chimpanzee
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Chimpanzee
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,141 Likes: 52 |
The blessing of the sick is a wonderful experience. I have attended several of them for when someone is to have surgery or other treatments. One friend said she was overcome with warmth when Father blessed her. She also said having friends with her in prayer at that time was most helpful as well.
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Amoeba
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OP
Amoeba
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 73 |
Mellisa,
A few things you need to know:
1) Most Catechisms have an "Imprimatur" upon it, even the ones that had been later condemned.
2) The Pope doesn't actually read the Catechisms before he writes his "blessing" on it - he relies on his "faithful" Congregation to do that, so he may in fact never even know what it contains. Again, it is only as good as the men who write it, since it is not infallible. Even if a Pope did know of the error and allowed it to remain, due to some weaknesses he may possess (they are human and a few have been proclaimed by the Church as heretics) the dogmas are always there to "double-check" any questions; The Popes cannot lie when binding a Dogma of Faith. This is the guarantee we have from God which is why Catholics should stop listening to men and actually read what the dogmatic councils and pronouncments say.
3) The Second Vatican Council was not "dogmatic," meaning: it never defined or pronouced dogma, in fact since it was merely "Pastoral" it can be dismissed completely from ever existing by any future Pope (unlike the ones that actually did define dogma, which you and every true Catholic should be studying up on - this is much like a house built on sand -v- the house built on rock. i.e: "Don't build your house on sand...")
You never answered my question as to why the church would say there was no salvation outside of Her, when there realy is. You simply keep saying that "its all in the interpretation" - The question is basic, and I want an honest answer so I will ask again: Why would the Church ever even mention "No Salvation..." if it was not needed to be said, since there actually IS salvation outside Her?
Did you read the pronouncement (infallible) that I quoted?
Can you explain to me why you would ignore the highest authority, a definition and declaration?
I will paste my question and the quote, here, for you again:
Read the definition of the dogma "No Salvation..." below, and tell me what you think it "REALLY says?"
"The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever have a share in eternal life, but that they will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels unless before death they shall have entered into the Church; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those abiding within this unity can profit from the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal reward for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may be, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV
In summary: A binding statement or definition of dogma is the highest authority; nothing and no one can ever undo or redo what IT says. Once a Pope has spoken in this manner, it is BOUND in heaven as Truth. A thousand Popes, other Bishops, Cardinals..etc. cannot remove it. They can try and write all kinds of books and interpretations to twist it as they would want, but the definition will always remain in the original document/pronouncement, as it is in Heaven, (much to the dismay of liberals). Since the Forum Master is AFK (since forever) I'll post this last one (quoted above) and ask if anyone else, who is attentive to the Forum, would like to answer my post?
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,141 Likes: 52
Chimpanzee
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Chimpanzee
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,141 Likes: 52 |
Czarina,
Buried in all of your post, I guess your question is, "Why would the Church ever even mention "No Salvation..." if it was not needed to be said, since there actually IS salvation outside Her?"
Her, the church, is Christ and the baptized are in the church. We are the Body of Christ.
14
(But) later, as the eleven were at table, he appeared to them and rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart because they had not believed those who saw him after he had been raised.
15
He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:14-16).
Last edited by Angie; 07/23/09 10:33 PM.
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Amoeba
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Amoeba
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 73 |
I did ask the question you attempted to answer, in a previous post - but the one I am referring to is in the one I quoted in #537942. Since you missed it, maybe it is hard to see, so I will repost here: Read the definition of the dogma "No Salvation..." below, and tell me what you think it "REALLY says?
"The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever have a share in eternal life, but that they will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels unless before death they shall have entered into the Church; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those abiding within this unity can profit from the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal reward for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may be, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV I would like to have a Catholic answer it though, no offense. Thank you for at least being around (unlike the Catholics here). By the way, the Catholics believe that Christ founded a visible church. We believe that the words "whosoever does not believe" are those who are not in communion with the Church, and do not obey the Vicar of Christ. Thanks again, CzarinaOz
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Amoeba
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Amoeba
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 73 |
Sorry Angie,
Reading through some posts I guess you are Catholic?
I was confused since the answer you gave would be exactly what a Protestant would say to make claim that the Catholic Church is against the Bible... "Christ never wanted a Church..." "All you need to do to be saved is be Baptized/accept the Lord.."
Anyway... since you are the only other Catholic around here, you might as well answer my post above if you like.
It is very sad to see such disinterest in the Catholic Faith - even by Catholics.
And especially sad that the Moderator can't seem to stick in some amount of attention.
Hopefully she isn't unwell.
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Chimpanzee
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Chimpanzee
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,141 Likes: 52 |
Upon consultation with a friend, I have this: Catechism of the Catholic Church 998 Who will rise? All the dead will rise, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. Also: Catholic Culture has a good article too. Library article I don't know what you're looking for exactly. Why don't you answer your own question. I would like to know what you think the answer is.
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Amoeba
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Amoeba
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 73 |
Was that a reply to this quote and question pertaining to it?:
Read the definition of the dogma "No Salvation..." below, and tell me what you think it "REALLY says?
"The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever have a share in eternal life, but that they will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels unless before death they shall have entered into the Church; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those abiding within this unity can profit from the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal reward for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may be, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV
...Because I don't see that expressed in what you quoted from the catechism. In fact it seems what you quoted is pretty-much the opposite of what the Infallible teaching of the Dogma says...
Can you explain what the Dogma says in the quote above?
Thanks.
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Chimpanzee
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Chimpanzee
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,141 Likes: 52 |
From my friend and consultant:
There are other sections concerning catechumens, children etc.
The Catholic Encyclopedia which has an IMPRIMATUR says
Salvation Outside the Church page 540
In the 20th century, and stemming from the errors of the Jacobites (1442), there arose notable instances of triumphalism and pride that caused many to declare falsely that only as members of the Catholic Church could human persons obtain salvation. This false notion was never endorsed by the Church authorities and was answered by V-II in several declarations.
The open admission was made: "Some, even very many, of the most significant elements or endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church herself can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church". (UR3), and several sacred actions of the separated brethren "can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation."(UR3c). This indicates that the "mode of understanding" is the crucial approach to the salvation of those outside the Church.
"Catholics must joyfully acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren" (UR4h).
Also, what you call dogma was perhaps a writing of the pope and as such authoritive but not infallible.
I believe we are One Body - the Body of Christ.
I would gather you believe the quote in your post.
We're poles apart.
Last edited by Angie; 07/25/09 11:14 AM.
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Amoeba
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Amoeba
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 73 |
Angie,
I don't understand what's going on here.
I keep asking for a summary of sorts- from a quote, and you keep giving � I don�t know what.
It is simple: Pretend your college professor asked you to give a �break-down� of what the dogma is saying... you read it, go to the front of the class and give everyone a synopsis of what you read.
Again, here is the quote.
"The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever have a share in eternal life, but that they will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels unless before death they shall have entered into the Church; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those abiding within this unity can profit from the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal reward for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may be, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV
Can you tell us what you think this quote is saying "in-a-nut-shell?" To make it easier, you can pretend you are a Protestant, looking into the Catholic Faith and read this quote... what would a catechumen think it is saying?
Thanks.
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