BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Spirituality Christian Heaven and Pagans

Ah, but Vance in my spiritual universe it IS that way. In my spiritual universe the souls of Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Buddha are enjoying a beautiful and peaceful afterlife, and good works are totally appreciated and applauded by whatever Creator or Creators are watching over us.

In my spiritual universe there is no special book that has to be read or words that have to be said in order for the soul to achieve bliss.

In my spiritual universe there is no God, no bible, and the relationship each one of has with Jesus or any other great spiritual teacher is a loving, gentle, compassionate and personal process.

And, I don't feel that anyone out there has to believe anything before it is "too late." I do believe, however, that we need to learn to work with one another in love and compassion to help to save our species from extinction due to the burden we are placing upon our home, the Earth.

That is what I believe.. and it works very well for me.. just as your belief works for you. We both have our own individual spiritual truths. I don't need to accept yours and you don't need to accept mine.

The difference is that in your belief system everyone who doesn't believe as you do is probably facing eternal damnation. That just doesn't work for me.

The good news is that neither one of us have a clue what we are talking about..lol. That is why we BELIEVE. But, truth is neither one of us will know what it is all about until we get there.

But, it has been my experience, through a death experience of my own, and working for Hospice that people who are not Christians do not scream their way out of this world in terror. In fact, quite often they are gently escorted out by loved ones. And, in many cases, they also see whatever spiritual guide they need to see in order to pass through the gates of death with no fear.

I can't believe that once they are on the other side, a demanding God rips them out of the embrace of their loved ones and casts them into hell. No, I have seen far to many deaths to believe that to be true.

I know what I know Vance. I have been there.. experienced what true love in the arms of the Creator is, and I have no fear at all of death.. and at no time during my experience did I feel any judgment whatsoever.

And, as I said before, people who do not believe generally do not want to go to Christian heaven..that would be hell for them.

Love and Light...

You said that excellently and I agree 100%!! What's more I have unfounding faith that in the next world, whatever it may be, all will live as one in total balance and harmony!

Well, I am sorry you feel that way, but, it is your choice to and I will respect that.

Vance, as a Christian, I am always puzzled about heaven being "just" for Christians. I know that you love God as much as I do and believe in everything from the Old Testament, but I often wonder, not just with you, but with everyone, if God is good then WHY would he prevent HIS believers from not meeting him, face to face?

Trish

When? We will meet Him face to face on the day we are called up?

Are you talking about now? I don't know why He doesn't let us see His face now. Have you tried asking Him to see it?

Have you ever read the book "23 Minutes in Hell? If not, then do read it or go and check out the website.

Bill Wiese was taken to hell by Jesus and he said that he could see everything but His face. His glory is just so magnificent that our simple minds would not even be able to comprehend the beauty.

On the website, there is another story about how 7 youths from Columbia were having a prayer meeting nad Jesus came into the home. They said His hair was long and golden and he wore white linens for clothes and had banners on him that said Lord of Lords and King of Kings but his face was just too brilliant to see.

As to your next question that I am sure will be coming...I don't know why He won't make himself seen to us like He did when He was walking with John, Peter, et al.

It is just one of the many mysteries of God that will someday be revealed to us as will all of His mysteries.

My own take on it, right or wrong, is that we are supposed to have faith. Blind faith, if you will and the enemy is always trying to make us waiver in our faith and God is going to let that happen to see who remains truly faithful to Him. If we saw Him, then our faith would be unquestionable but I feel He wants only the truly faithful with Him.

As I wrote in a previous post, He could have created a bunch of angels to worship Him instead of us. But, He chose us and chose to make us the way we are.

We hear God's voice, we just cannot see His face yet.

Vance..

Why on Earth would you be sorry that I have a life filled with wonder, joy, peace, harmony and love? Why would you be sorry that I see my afterlife as being even better than my life on Earth? Why would you feel sorry for anyone whose faith fills them to the brim with love, curiousity and awe?

We are here to learn to love, to learn compassion and to learn how to get along with one another. We are here to grow and develop our spirit to the fullest extend possible in a human body. Perhaps what you need to understand is that even though Christianity seems to be the only way of spiritual practice for you .. it is not the only way for thousands and thousands of people around the globe who are happy, well adjusted and thriving.

Feel sorry for those among us who are starving, who do not have a warm bed to sleep in, or who are abused and neglected. They are the ones that need that kind of emotion from you.

People like me.. who just don't happen to agree with your ideas of divinity don't need your pity.. that is just plain ego on your part.. like saying my car is better than yours.. or my house is bigger than yours.. in this case it is .. my religion is better than yours.

Your religion only expresses your views.. it really does not apply to any of us who have different beliefs.. thank heavens..lol.. that you are not the one in charge of where people go when they pass over.. you obviously are not spiritually evolved enough to make those decisions..in fact.. no human being is.

No Vance.. I am happy and I know that I will be in a place that is beautiful when I pass over. I know that.. and no amount of your nay-saying can ever change that.

Love and Light..

Don't be sorry. I am not. You seem to know your religion and bible fairly well, but how's your spirituality. I am one with my creator and higher power. My world is great, here and in the everafter!

I am firm in my belief that I shall see Heaven one day. As for Judaism:

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.

Some scholars claim that belief in the afterlife is a teaching that developed late in Jewish history. It is true that the Torah emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.

Certain sins are punished by the sinner being "cut off from his people." See, for example, Gen. 17:14 and Ex. 31:14. This punishment is referred to as kareit (kah-REHYT) (literally, "cutting off," but usually translated as "spiritual excision"), and it means that the soul loses its portion in the World to Come.

Later portions of the Tanakh speak more clearly of life after death and the World to Come. See Dan. 12:2, Neh. 9:5.

The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age. The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being.

In the Mishnah, one rabbi says, "This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." Similarly, the Talmud says, "This world is like the eve of Shabbat, and the Olam Ha-Ba is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat." We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah study and good deeds.

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.

Hi Jase.. Thanks for the reply! What an interesting discussion this has turned out to be..

First, your post has brought up a thousand questions in my mind. It seems like the God that you are describing and the God of the Christians are two separate entities.

The God of the Jews rules by Jewish law and tradition. His laws are still in effect and still practiced by many traditional Jews. And, most of those all laws have to do with the respect of humankind for the natural world.

The God of the Christians however, does not live by Jewish law and tradition at all. He has a different holy day, different holidays, and a very different set of principles.. and he has a son.

Now, according to Christian belief, the God they worship is the same God that the Jews worship. I don't understand how that could be given the huge differences between the two deities.

If Christianity were to leave Judaism out of the story, and simply worship the man named Jesus as their God, it would make a whole lot more sense.. since the whole religion revolves around that principle anyway.

According to your posting Jase, all of the righteous regardless of race, color or creed are invited to one heck of an afterlife party. But, according to Christian rules.. and the main rule is that you have to believe in Jesus to get into heaven.. there would consequently be no Jews allowed into their version of heaven.

This raises a very thorny.. no pun intended.. issue. Jesus.. according to the Christians was a Jew. And, he would have abided by Jewish law. Wouldn't it only seem natural that he might have a preference for his own people, rather than non-Jews who are using his name as their calling card?

I just don't understand it.. Which God is which? And, if they are the same one.. how can such discrepancies exist?

Love and Light..

ok to give some light on the Jew vs. Christian thing...Christians believe that the Jews will come to believe in Jesus in Gods own time then they will be saved and live happily ever after..... (not sacasiam not intended!)

Christians tend to believe that for some reason God did not let the Jews reconize Jesus as the Massiah and kinda closed there eyes and hearts to Him but in time God will open there eyes and hearts and they will be saved that is where some churchs put the only 166,000,000 (whatever big #)will be saved....

so ALL GOOD CHRISTIANS will go to heaven but only 166.000.000 Jews will be there....

Now Personaly in the All things God and Heavenly book.... I think God Laughs at our little rules and divitions!!! So what if we are Jew Christian Muslim, or Pagan Wiccan Hindu buddist or some unable to pronouce combo of any and all of them!!! I think we miss the GREAT BIG PICTURE!!!!

but that is just me!

I believe in All dogs cats and people go to heaven and all BAD BAD PEople go to hell but I am not going to jugde whos who!!!
I am Happy to Let God do the Judgeing!!!!

So like i said somewhere else if you want to worship a three eyed red and blue poka dot bikini wearing oreo cookie then God Bless you for it!!! I will stick to my believes and you are welcome to yours!!! but I wont worship that Oreo cookie anymore then you will worship my God!!!