BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids Odd things you've heard people say regarding kids

Hi everybody!
It's been awhile since I've posted, but I've been kinda busy, but I've also made a point of visiting my sounding board (this site) everyday to stay in touch. I've wanted to post in response to some of Griz's comments, but now I don't have to because, thanks to Elise, she has done so! Thank you Elise for saying all the things I've been wanting to say, but I know I wouldn't have been as diplomatic as you! I agree wholeheartedly with you that comments have been quite restrained in regards to the posts of parents and prospective parents, and if Griz is looking more for a debate format with parents, CFers and fencesitters, another site may be an option.

AND, you're absolutely right about how us CFers are always exposed to a parent's POV in our everyday lives and many of us come here soley for a CF POV-that is the main nature of this forum. I don't need to be "enlightened" with how hard parents have it; they chose it and now they can do it. The point is, as you said Elise, we don't WANT to do it.

Rant done.
Jenny

happy saturday morning everyone!! hope you're having a pleasant weekend . I went out to a club last night and it made me realize I've gotten too old for that stuff hehe... I just went because it was a friend's b-day celebration, but once it got crowded I just kept looking for the door.

Anyway, regarding the comments I made previously, I'm not going to pursue the issue any further after this post.

In retrospect, the whole thing to me seeme kinda like this:

-parents give up their personal development when they have children.

*I know some that don't, they're pretty rare but do exist.

-yeah, but I bet they can't spend enough time with their kids.

*they can, at least the ones I know can.

-well, I bet they don't have any time for themselves.

*they have afternoons and weekends to plan at leisure after their studies are done.

-but they often miss work to do family things and I never get thanks for substituting for them.

*as far as I know, at least where I work, when you sub for someone you get their pay for that day. That works for me...

-but WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!

*I never said you HAVE to, I was just exposing another side of things you may not have known existed. I was offering a counterpoint to the original argument and suddenly I'm getting responses like "oh well, that changes everything, guess I'll go have 19 babies now!!!"

No need for any of that, I was just unveiling a curious truth. It seems some of you feel threatened by it... why is that? If this were a cat lovers forum and someone came in with poignant discoveries about the benefits of dog ownership I don't think I'd go toss my cats in a shelter and get a dog, I don't believe I'd even incite a debate with that person, just go "yeah, neat, good for dog lovers. I still prefer my kitties, tho"

My mistake was in thinking people here were open-minded enough to embrace all kids of philosophies lines of thought, without feeling like you were trying to be "won over by the other side". Lesson learned, letting it go.

*end of story*

Trying to get back on topic, I really dislike parents who never discipline their children because they believe "kids will be kids, eventually they'll grow out of (insert destructive behavior)". Then they act surprised when their teenager is physically violent and out of control.

Ok, I was trying really hard to stay out of this, but now I'm thoroughly insulted. I AM NOT ANTI-PARENT. I am engaged to one! I let him read over my shoulder your conversation with Elise earlier in this thread. This hard-working, proud daddy said a few things I think bear repeating (because I don't disagree, obviously). What follows below are his opinions, paraphrased as little as possible.

"You may be able to do it all, but you can't to it all WELL. Something's got to give. Kids, career, marriage. Someone is going to suffer if you have too much on your plate. If you're doing a great job with the rest, then the person who is suffering is YOU. Human beings need down time. Just the way it is."

"Her comments read like she's trying to convert you to a religion. Is she selling biological clocks?"

"I thought you said the mommy types on this board were nice and open-minded?"

I'm going to marry that man.

I struck out the anti-parent comment. Sorry if it offended you. And I'd really like to know WHERE I've said anything about "selling" an idea to someone or trying to convince them that their choices are wrong.

Like I said, you don't want to be parents because that's the way you've planned out your life, fine, great, wonderful... but fact remains, SOME people can balance it all, thanks to a difference perhaps in something as simple as society and culture. They're no better than you, I don't know why it irks some of you that these people exist.

[quote=Griz]Anyway, regarding the comments I made previously, I'm not going to pursue the issue any further after this post, as some of you have plainly made it clear that this is not just a CF forum, but also an anti-parent forum.

-parents give up their personal development when they have children.

*I know some that don't, they're pretty rare but do exist.

MANY parents give up their own development. Not all. Can you not see the degrees of grey in most of the arguments we put forth here? Most of us actually agree with you on this point, but somehow you're not picking up on that. (I myself said in another recent post that one of my two dearest friends in the world is a mother of three. She's doing wonderfully in the personal development department. On the other hand, she's completely sworn off of romantic relationships, so that frees up some time for her).

Some people who have children were never into personal development even before they had children. It's not "anti-parent" to say so...more like "pro-child" or "pro-humanity". It's merely stating that parenthood is entirely TOO COMMON, and that people who haven't thought it through are still having kids, even though they're entirely ill-equipped to be good parents. And --- surprise! --- they tend to be the ones who are looking for kudos and praise, just for having birthed a child. If you have a child for the right reasons (not to carry on the family name, not to save Social Security, not because all of your friends are having kids, not to give your parents a grandchild --- but because you want to raise and nurture a young life), then the process itself is the reward.

-well, I bet they don't have any time for themselves.

*they have afternoons and weekends to plan at leisure after their studies are done.

...almost always with their kids. We're talking about actual time alone, or quality time with one's spouse.

-but they often miss work to do family things and I never get thanks for substituting for them.

*as far as I know, at least where I work, when you sub for someone you get their pay for that day. That works for me...

I'm thrilled it works for you. I'm on salary, though, like the vast majority of American teachers. We get paid a fixed amount per year, and when you're asked to sub, you just do it (no extra pay), for the good of the school and the well-being of your colleagues and the students.

It's usually Americans who are (accurately) taken to task for trying to to universalize their experience, assuming that all other nations are like theirs. In an international forum, it's best to try to avoid such things.

-but WE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!

*I never said you HAVE to, I was just exposing another side of things you may not have known existed. I was offering a counterpoint to the original argument and suddenly I'm getting responses like "oh well, that changes everything, guess I'll go have 19 babies now!!!"

No need for any of that, I was just unveiling a curious truth. It seems some of you feel threatened by it... why is that?

If you'd come down off your high horse, I think you'd see that we're not threatened. We're annoyed.

If this were a cat lovers forum and someone came in with poignant discoveries about the benefits of dog ownership I don't think I'd go toss my cats in a shelter and get a dog, I don't believe I'd even incite a debate with that person, just go "yeah, neat, good for dog lovers. I still prefer my kitties, tho"

They'd grumble to themselves a bit, but be polite and try to get you back on-topic for the forum. If that didn't work, they'd try to direct you to another, more appropriate forum. Dogs vs. cats is a matter of choice --- apples and oranges. Some people come down on one side of it; some, the other. Some people have both. Some people have none. But even the people who have both wouldn't talk about their dogs much in a cat forum. They'd go to the dog forum for that.

Y'know, Griz, I would think that a person such as yourself, who's trying to break the mold within your own family in terms of building more positive points of view towards working women and working mothers, would at least have some insight into the struggles that CF people face. You're not fighting that particular fight, because you want kids. That's fine --- it's what you want, it's your choice. But since you're not CF, you've never had to face the s$%tstorm (probably even bigger in Mexico than it is here) that American women get when they consciously decide not to have kids, or worse, dare to admit that they're actually happy with their decision.

My mistake was in thinking people here were open-minded enough to embrace all kids of philosophies lines of thought, without feeling like you were trying to be "won over by the other side". Lesson learned, letting it go.

We'll hold you to that, Griz.

Griz, I'm not threatened by your opinions and I doubt others on this site are threatened or feel like you're trying to persuade us to have a child. I think what I have a challenge with is why someone who wants to be a prospective parent wants to be in a forum, albeit an open one, that focuses on child free matters and then has the nerve to accuse some of us of being anti-parent. And it has been pointed out to me that it is an open forum so there may be a few parents and prospectives who will visit and comment, so I'm aware of it.

Just because we don't want to start discussing how great some parents are and wow, kudos to them for doing so much, etc., etc., this doesn't mean this is an anti-parent forum. Just like Elise said, if you want to see anti-child and really anti-parent comments, go to cfhardcore and other websites who refer to children as crotch trophies and so on. I don't really see that kind of talk here.

Someone mentioned that a lot of us are in our mid-thirties and forties and have felt this way about not having children either early on in adulthood or even in our teens, so by coming on here and telling us that you are "just exposing another side of things we may not have known existed" just seems condescending to me, like you're trying to educate us. Of course we all know there are some wonderful parents out there who are great parents, have a job, maintain their interests and so on. This is not news to us.

And I don't know why anyone who wanted to talk about the merits of dogs would want to comment on a cat forum. I think they would go find a dog forum. Just my two cents.

Just because we don't want to start discussing how great some parents are and wow, kudos to them for doing so much, etc., etc., this doesn't mean this is an anti-parent forum. Just like Elise said, if you want to see anti-child and really anti-parent comments, go to cfhardcore and other websites who refer to children as crotch trophies and so on. I don't really see that kind of talk here.

Just as much to the point...if a CF were to go into a parent forum and say "Well, moms, don't you think a CF person lives just as fulfilled a life as parents do? Isn't everything a tradeoff in life? You guys have your kids, and there are rewards there, but CFs get more quality time with their spouses, fewer money worries, more leisure time, etc. Have you ever thought about this truth?". We'd be run out of town on a rail.

Someone mentioned that a lot of us are in our mid-thirties and forties and have felt this way about not having children either early on in adulthood or even in our teens, so by coming on here and telling us that you are "just exposing another side of things we may not have known existed" just seems condescending to me, like you're trying to educate us. Of course we all know there are some wonderful parents out there who are great parents, have a job, maintain their interests and so on. This is not news to us.

Absolutely. Also, as has been pointed out many times, parents of very young children tend to be very positive and evangelistic about parenthood (compared to parents of teens and adults, who've seen more, or all, of the hard work that goes into the entire process). Prospective parents can sometimes be even further off the charts on the positive/evangelistic scales.

Ok, this is kind of funny, to me, that is! There were no comments to Griz's comment when I got on, but after I submitted mine, I saw that myrabeth and bonsai were commenting at the same time I was! So it was nice to see that I wasn't the only one who was feeling like "what the hell?"
And Elise, I like when you said we're not threatened, just annoyed! That is true and it made me laugh!
I had to call my husband into the room so he could get up to speed as to why I've been annoyed the last few days. He totally backs me up!

Let's move on soon, shall we?

So, if we get it down to the point of origin, I also felt a little annoyed with the initial comment I responded to, that stated something to the effect that people who have kids put their personal development on hold, or never become completely fulfilled as human beings.

That's what started this whole ordeal, if you think my opinions have turned me into some kind of troll, my only intention was to give counterpoint to that opinion, because it seemed generalizing and biased, not to mention derisive and condescending to anyone who plans to be a parent (like, why would ANYONE in their right mind give up their development to develop someone else from scratch??).

Stiking a counterpoint and foolishly (I admit) following it through to this extent has left some of you feeling exactly the same way I initially felt. I don't consider my decisions to be wrong any more than yours are, and I apologize again, profusely, for letting things escalate to this point, but I just wanted to clarify my original intention.

Exactly. For two years straight I worked 7 days a week, went to graduate school full-time, worked 20 hours as a T.A., which means I actually spent about 25-30 hours a week once you add in grading homework and watching all their projects, plus I was teaching gymnastics at 1 or 2 gyms depending on the season and working in Kidzone at the park district AND reception. I was out of the house 14 hours a day weekdays and 6 hours a day at LEAST on weekends.

I crashed. I burned. Not only did my relationship with my husband suffer, I was getting sick because I was getting 3-4 hours of sleep a night after homework.

So as far as "having it all", I've been there, done that. Minus children, of course. My own children, that is, because I was teaching over 100 children gymnastics per session and I had 2 classes of college students.

Everyone applauded me for being such a "high-achiever" but after I graduated I pretty much fell apart. I HATED leaving the house. I quit teaching gymnastics halfway through my last semester because it had messed up my knee and I couldn't kneel anymore, not to mention that something had to give.

But - I COULD stop teaching. I COULD cut back on the jobs. You can't just stop being a parent. You can't always cut back on the jobs when you have other mouths to feed.

If things get too stressful and you've got children