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"....only leads us to distrusting our own judgement." Holly, there are times I would swear you were a mouse in the corner of my private space where nobody is ever allowed, because you know the things I've never allowed anyone else to hear. I have no faith whatsoever in my judgement. My track record justifies that. Since I am the only constant, it has to be me, doesn't it?

Do I still love him?

Is the person I love the real person,or who I thought him to be?

Gee, I really can't say at this early stage.

When I met him and we got married, he was wonderfully loving, caring, gentle, understanding, generous and thoughtful. I trusted him as I have never trusted anyone before. He was my whole world - and perhaps this was my first big mistake.

The change in him was gradual, but after three years he was tearing my heart and mind apart. I now wish I'd never gotten involved with him in the first place, but the love I had, and the memories of better times just will not leave me in peace.

I know I can't live with him, but a part of me doesn't want to live without him!

My T told me she thinks he became an 'addiction' for me. (Now there's a thought to put to the group! Do we sometimes become addicted to people???)

AF.

But is it really your judgment that is flawed? ...or rather are problems caused by insecurity? See... i would bet that if there have been problems, that most weren't brought on because you trusted your faulty judgment, but rather because you didn't trust your judgment enough, or value yourself enough, so you trusted and followed someone else's lead.

Now three guesses how i know that, and the first two guesses are just for fun! HAHHAHAHAH.

yes. I've made some doozies of mistakes and then in hindsight wondered, why on earth did i go along with that??!! I had more sense! I could have gotten us (or me) out of that mess!!! Why didn't i follow my own inner voice that was telling me this was wrong?

Think for a moment when you've been at your best, too... when in hindsight you see that you made the best decision... wasn't that because you trusted your judgment? That somehow you knew?

I think when we don't trust our own judgment, and when we don't have a solid core of knowing what we stand for (our ethics) and how we're going to insist we are treated, that we're just like a floating stick on river rapids... we get easily pushed by the currents and tossed around and even thrown against the rocks. But when we do know what's right and wrong for us, then we can swim, and can get ourselves to solid land.

You and i and many others... we aren't centered enough at present. We don't know at the moment how to stand strong. We're learning who we are (learning to value ourselves), and how not to put up with being treated poorly for longer than it takes to discover it. We're still learning that: yeah, maybe we DO know something afterall... sometimes we even know a lot more than the misguided souls we meet who sometimes sound so sure of themselves. And we certainly know more about our own needs and desires than ANYONE else, right?

I think a lot of days i act as if there is a price tag on me that reads, $4.98 marked down from $6.98. Like a special at Walmart, ha. But the truth is, we're all priceless, right? We're all museum masterpieces. And we should have that kind of care and nobility that goes with being a masterpiece.

I don't know, AF, but we can certainly become obsessed and lose our balance and reason.

...you've got me thinking... when you said he was, "your whole world"... that is certainly how an addict comes to view the object of their addiction. What i'm thinking is... we start seeing that/them as being the cause and only significant source of our happiness, instead of our happiness being something we do, and available to us under many different circumstances, yes? no? What do you think?

...and then if that is so, then wouldn't the remedy be balancing and feeling the happiness comes from ourselves and is found in many places? ??

Hooly, you said-

you've got me thinking... when you said he was, "your whole world"... that is certainly how an addict comes to view the object of their addiction. What i'm thinking is... we start seeing that/them as being the cause and only significant source of our happiness, instead of our happiness being something we do, and available to us under many different circumstances, yes? no? What do you think?


that is what romantic love is all about.

yes. I suppose it is.

I don't know then, Manjari. I certainly don't have it figured out for myself yet.

Holly,
There are two kinds of people.

One highly analytical and calculating.
other- emotionally driven.

you belong to the later category.

You will obviously get hurt. That is bound to happen.
But you also enjoy life much more than the dry calculators.

Holly, I'm not sure I'd say it was insecurity, because as an individual, a single mother, a friend, I've always been secure in my abilities. When it came to depending only on me, i knew I could manage anything life threw my way. It was my judgement in men that I chose where my judgement became impaired. Beginning at age 15 and ending 6 years ago at age 40, I was in 5 serious committed relationships-all which turned abusive after the first year except the first one, which was abusive from the git go. the first 3 each gave me a child and I wouldn't trade them for anything in this world, so I consider them lessons I had to learn. It was the last 2 that really destroyed any confidence I had in my judgement. I should have been well schooled in the ways of abusive, controlling men, yet with experience my judgement got worse. The fourth one got me beat up by a cop and resulted in a lawsuit against the police department. It should never have happened. I had just graduated from college with B.S. in political science and sociology with a concentration on law. I was top of my class. Not only did I have hands on personal experience, I had learned knowledge to use. I missed all the signs anyways. Four years later in a new state and one child raised, I did it again. This one almost cost me my life permanently and scarred my son, also. I was in the process of trying to get out when [censored] majorlly blew up. To make a long story short, my ex was bipolar and had stopped taking his paxil regularly and was addicted to xanax. His behavior got crazier and less predictible, often erupting in intense, uncontrolled rages. If he couldn't get me to fight, he'd turn to verbally abusing my son, knowing I'd then step in, giving him reason to beat me. During the last, and I do mean LAST in my life, there was a point I realized I was capable of taking another human life. Had he touched my son, I'd have shot him in the back with the gun he'd given me as a gift. In a flash, I saw everything. I'd go to prison, my children would be left alone and forever traumatized, but he'd be dead and it would be over. We got out that day and never returned. I had 3 broken ribs and a cracked vertebrae, not to mention a very colorful face. He was charged with domestic assault and did 7 days after pleading guilty. I was charged with assault with a deadly weapon because he said I had a knife and was trying to kill him so he had to beat that way in selfdefense. He never knew what went through my mind. He never knew I had the gun any where close. In addition, he didn't have a cut or scratch on him. Our sheriff says it takes 2 to fight. My charges were dismissed for lack of evidence eventually. Anyways, the way I see it there has to be something very flawed in my judgement. For the first year this man talked like my soul mate. When the mental illness, which I knew was there previously but was under control with medication, became a controlling factor, I was totally caught off guard; blind sided and totally dumbfounded. What would you say? Was it poor judgement or do I bring out the worst in people. All 5 of these guys were totally different from each other. Different walks of life, views, attitudes, etc. I never dreamed they would turn to the same controlling, abusive man. Being a very independent woman, how was I fooled if my judgement wasn't flawed. I have done alot of hard, soul-searching work and have gotten a grip on most of it and have overcome alot, but as far as confidence goes, I have none. The only confidence I've gained is in my ability to choose the worst of men. I'm over 5 years into a healthy relationship with a good man. We've never lived together and will never, ever marry. With my youngest child leaving home for college, he talks more of living together. He's a good man, makes excellent money, etc., etc., yet if everything was to suddenly change for the worse over night, it wouldn't surprise me. That's what kind of confidence I have in my judgement. What do you see in this? Can anyone give me insight? I've done the work and realize how I ended up abused in the first place, even the first three, but I cannot understand the last two, especially the last one. Sorry for ranting, but thanks for listening. It helps me to lay it all out once in awhile! Sue

Manjari-you are right about two kinds of people. Why do you think they wind up together as a couple so often like a lock and key or cup and saucer? Fate? Intentional? Any thoughts, anyone?

Well, Sue, ...i know it is NOT that you bring out the worst in people!!!!

A very dear friend taught me that "There is NO excuse for abuse!" ...and it is simple, but very true. And learning that has helped me so much to sort things out sometimes! It doesn't matter what you did, even if you were yourself abusive (and i think not)... nothing excuses treating another human being abusively, even if it is done first to you. We are each accountable for how we treat others! No one gets a pass because of circumstances, because they are under stress, or because of what another person does to them. Even if you supposedly "brought out the worst" ...they are responsible for what they did, not you. "Brought out the worst" to me, sounds too close to, "yes he hit me but i made him mad," ...NO... that doesn't excuse it. You are responsible for what you do, I am responsible for what I do, they are responsible for what they do, and so on. You see, not everyone will behave the same if put in the same situation. No one is ever FORCED to be abusive to someone else, we are responsible for how we treat others.

I know when i was reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship and The Emotionally Abused Woman, they talked a lot about how sometimes we (the partners of abusers) don't know where healthy boundaries are so we don't say anything when those boundaries get the first nudges, for example, we may not give them any consequences for their first lie, or the first time they say we can't do anything right. They say abusers are attracted to people who don't have healthy boundaries because their partner because then they don't have to be culpable. The partner doesn't say no enough and their partner doesn't end the relationship when the abuser misbehaves, cheats, insults, lies, is selfish, irresponsible or shows addictive behavior, etc... in fact the partner often tries even harder to make the relationship work "right." I came to think that if you can't be pushed around and won't put up with even being treated badly a little, that it is actually the abuser that looks elsewhere for an easier target, sometimes before we even know them well enough to know they are an abuser. A partner who isn't strong, would seek to keep the relationship going... but one who was strong would be glad they left. So i look at being strong and having healthy boundaries as like BUG REPELLANT!!!!

We can get abused even in non-romantic relationships and work situations, too. I have an idea... why don't we start a new thread to discuss and define healthy boundaries? We can help each other figure them out, and talk about our current relationships... romantic or otherwise... to see if we are enforcing healthy boundaries?