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das #318209 05/30/07 01:45 AM
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Wow. That is so nice that he thought of me and my project. smile

Tell him, laugh ...i stopped writing on it when i realized how little i know. hahaha ...but i promise, i shall return to working on it now. Practice is helping me to become happier, and the good community here at Bella is helping me to become a little wiser. smile

Is he more comfortable now? I hope so. He's not forgotten and i pray for him at the end of each day.

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hollyelise #318217 05/30/07 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: hollyelise
Wow. That is so nice that he thought of me and my project. smile

Tell him, laugh ...i stopped writing on it when i realized how little i know. hahaha ...but i promise, i shall return to working on it now. Practice is helping me to become happier, and the good community here at Bella is helping me to become a little wiser. smile

Is he more comfortable now? I hope so. He's not forgotten and i pray for him at the end of each day.


I believe that you are already a very wise person. You needed a platform to discuss and make friends. You found this at Bella. It is surely a very nice community.

Alexandra #318220 05/30/07 03:22 AM
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I aplogize for the length of this post, but I believe it is necessary to address some of Alexandra's comments and suggestions to survivors of child sexual abuse.

I speak both as a survivor myself, and as a qualified counsellor with considerable experience in working with abused children.

Originally Posted By: Alexandra
And it is precisely this final point which raises sorrow within me. The inability that people truly suffer from, of being incapable of Letting Go. Completely.


Dear Alexandra, it depends on what you mean by 'letting go completely'. You cannot 'let go completely' of psychological damage. Ask any Psychiatrist who is worth their salt, and is experienced in treating survivors of child sexual abuse. You cannot get rid of the legacies of such abuse by simply willing yourself to. Acceptance is a more reasonable expectation. It is much more than just memories we are talking about here.

Quote:
If the majority of 'me' is less than 6 weeks old, then what has happened to the "me" who experienced this suffering?
It would appear that most of me no longer exists, in any tangible form.
The place I exist chiefly, is in the workings of my own mind.


And in the mind is also the damage. The damage is also in the very soul of the person. There is physical damage to many of us, and that doesn't change every 6 weeks. There is emotional damage, and that can affect the way we feel and how we are able to function in life. There is psychological damage, which can affect how we think and how capable we are of functioning in the every-day things that others take for granted. It is not simple at all!

Quote:
We cannot tangibly change the past. it's gone. The only place we can access it is within our memory.


This is not strictly correct. It is NOT 'gone' - it remains a part of us, and it is not just 'memory' - it is within our whole being. There are also 'body memories'. The 'whole person'. This is because years of sexual abuse leaves permanent scars. It is something which touches every aspect of us. It is not just a 'memory'. If you lose your legs in an accident, no amount of positive thinking is going to give them back to you, but you CAN learn to go into the future making the most of what you still have. So it is with survivors of child sexual abuse.

Quote:
Trust me, i often shed tears for you...
But they are also tears of frustration, because really, the answers are so simple.


I'm sorry. The answers in a situation such as this are never simple.

Quote:
Willingness, willingness to really try to drop it all, and leave it aside.


I get so exasperated when people say this. It is so uninformed and without knowledge. You don't just 'drop' these legacies Alexandra. It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. If I asked my therapist to show me how to 'drop it and leave it aside', she would probably tell me that I was in denial and failing to face reality. These things have to be worked through to be dealt with, and that means dealing with the grief, the anger, the sense of betrayal, and the damage that no amount of positive thinking is going to heal. It can take years of hard, heartbreaking work. So to say that we are "perpetuating the act by keeping it active as a negative memory" is ludicrous!

The fact is, that the sexual abuse of children has effects on the mind of the child which remain with them. There are what we call 'legacies' which are left behind, and which often follow them all their lives, especially if they are not fortunate enough to receive professional help at an early age. The damage done frequently leads to other psychological problems, and it doesn't stop when the abuse stops - it can and does reach far into the future of that child. The introduction of the child to sexual behaviour messes big time with their minds as well as their bodies. Everything is thrown out of balance and it affects everything they do, or experience in future years. It affects their ability to know acceptable boundaries because their boundaries were invaded before they were old enough to know what their boundaries were. Their ability to trust was affected by the fact that their abusers were probably people they trusted, and who had a duty of care to them, which was completely betrayed in the worst possible way.

Often their ability to make close friendships was affected because they are not able to relate, or to respond to others.

Often they are emotionally arrested, and do not experience the normal 'stepping stones' which are experienced in the formative years.

I could go on and on with examples, but I think it would be a waste of time. But survivors will know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Quote:
Why, oh why hold on to it? Why keep it as a sharp stick to keep poking yourself in the eye with it?


WE don't 'hold on to it' - it is a PART of us and we have to learn to live WITH it. To accept that it happened; to work through our grief and anger; to accept the legacies we have been left with and learn to make the best of what we have, and find peace within ourselves and the courage to move on - but NOT to think that we can just drop the whole history as if it is something which will 'go away' and we will be free of it forever!

Do you understand what I mean when I speak of 'triggers'? Do you understand that some memories only surface as a result of triggers? These then have to be dealt with from scratch. Things that you thought were dealt with can re-surface, and by no conscious action of the person concerned. There are many things which we 'blocked out' - and which appear even 20 or 30 years later, when something 'triggers' them.

Quote:
Help me understand why you would willingly, voluntarily keep doing this to yourselves, long after the acts have gone!


No one will understand unless they have experienced the same types of abuse. And we DON'T 'willingly' or 'voluntarily' 'keep doing this to ourselves'!!!!!!! To even suggest that, is to insult, and is completely without knowledge or understanding. Do you honestly think we do this to ourselves? GEEZ!!!

I repeat again for the benefit of all those who are reading this thread who may happen to be survivors of child sexual abuse.

The way forward is to:

1) Find a GOOD therapist who has experience with survivors of CSA.

2) Talk about it, and as often as you need.

3) Express your anger in positive ways which do not hurt you or anyone else.

4) Realize that you will no doubt be experiencing Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and that you need a wide, and reliable support system.

5) You will need to work through the grief process, AT YOUR OWN PACE, and in the way that is best suited to your needs.

6) You can help yourself a great deal by keeping a journal to write down your thoughts and feelings. I have also suggested art work to express how you feel. These are all PROVEN ways to help yourself to heal.

By doing these things you are able to 'get it out' and to reach a place where you are able to 'accept' - and move on with your life.

The ARE NO 'quick fixes' and people who have thought they have found a 'quick fix' sadly relapse later on, when something they haven't 'dealt with' and 'worked through' suddenly surfaces and throws them into a panic. I know. I've seen it happen.

My loving encouragement to all those who have been sexually abused. There IS light at the end of the tunnel, but it takes time, and a lot of hard work on your part, but it can happen for you. Trust yourselves. Love yourselves, and BELIEVE in yourselves.

Patience.





Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


patience #318224 05/30/07 03:49 AM
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Patience - dearest, dearest Patience - your post is full of self-erected hurdles.... All objections and reasons as for why you simply "can't" just drop it all....

"To diminish the suffering of Pain, we need to make the crucial distinction between the Pain of Pain, and the Pain we create for ourselves through thoughts about the Pain. Fear, Anger, Loneliness and Helplessness are all mental emotional responses that can intensify Pain."

Howard Cutler, "The Art of happiness - A Handbook for Living" Written in close collaboration with HH the Dalai Lama.

These teachings are not new. They are thousands of years old, tried tested and proven to work.
They worked for me.
Simply because I don't ever mention what happened to me, or seem so blase about it, people don't believe I ever had the experiences to begin with.
But I did, and I give a damn.
They don't matter, not a jot.
If I met those who hurt me, for so long, as a child, I could genuinely hug them and not care a damn about the past.
because it's not worth it for me to keep carrying the baggage.
I am worth more to me than that.

Try substituting the words 'can't' for 'won't'.
That will describe it better.

I am now going to refrain from adding anything further to any posts regarding this kind of subject, because try hard as I might to convince you that the only reasons you are still carrying all this [censored] around with you is because you choose to, it seems to simply engender more anger, hostility and protesting resistance.
Not because of sour grapes, or huffiness.
it's just not constructive and helpful, and it's causing anger and resentment in others.
Something I would never wish or hope to do.

Sadly - in every sense of the word - I am signing off now.
Both on Forum and through PMs and personal correspondence.

Alexandra #318228 05/30/07 04:26 AM
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I have read posts by patience and Alexandra here. I contribute thus-

When we are abused badly, we tend to lose the mental balance. Most of the thoughts I have are beyond my control. Most of the times, I live in a different world. That world is so different that I can not even explain it. I may call it lunacy.

No suggestions work when I live in that world because I lose control over myself. That is not my fault. Earlier I used to hate myself for losing control. Now, i accept that as a legacy of the abuse I underwent.

Most of the people who never experienced extreme abuse can not understand what goes in me. They give me many ideas. But as I said nothing remains with me when I am in my world.
Bookish knowledge and such things look good but do not work at all. One has to live through the pain in many ways. Slowly the memories get drained and the intensity decreases. And sometimes I feel that nothing has decreased with me.

Sorry, I am not able to explain.

Alexandra #318239 05/30/07 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Alexandra
Patience - dearest, dearest Patience your post is full of self-erected hurdles.... All objections and reasons as for why you simply "can't" just drop it all
"To diminish the suffering of Pain, we need to make the crucial distinction between the Pain of Pain, and the Pain we create for ourselves through thoughts about the Pain. Fear, Anger, Loneliness and Helplessness are all mental emotional responses that can intensify Pain."

Howard Cutler, "The Art of happiness - A Handbook for Living" Written in close collaboration with HH the Dalai Lama.

These teachings are not new. They are thousands of years old, tried tested and proven to work.
They worked for me.
Simply because I don't ever mention what happened to me, or seem so blase about it, people don't believe I ever had the experiences to begin with.
But I did, and I give a damn.
They don't matter, not a jot.
If I met those who hurt me, for so long, as a child, I could genuinely hug them and not care a damn about the past.
because it's not worth it for me to keep carrying the baggage.
I am worth more to me than that.

Try substituting the words 'can't' for 'won't'.
That will describe it better.
(black emphasis made by me, patience)

I am now going to refrain from adding anything further to any posts regarding this kind of subject, because try hard as I might to convince you that the only reasons you are still carrying all this [censored] around with you is because you choose to, it seems to simply engender more anger, hostility and protesting resistance.
Not because of sour grapes, or huffiness.
it's just not constructive and helpful, and it's causing anger and resentment in others.
Something I would never wish or hope to do.

Sadly - in every sense of the word - I am signing off now.
Both on Forum and through PMs and personal correspondence.


Well, Alexandra didn't 'hear' a word I said, apparently!

Isn't it lovely when people accuse you of doing nothing to help yourself, and of KNOWING nothing, when THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED OR EXPERIENCED COUNSELLORS THEMSELVES and they self-righteously propose to know not only what [b]I [/b]need, but also what everyone else needs, and also that they know more about how to treat survivors of child sexual abuse than the qualified experts in the field?

And then, they 'conveniently' remove themselves from the forum, and stop private PM's to someone they have professed to be an 'eternal friend' to, just because I happen to know more about this subject than they do, and had the integrity to disagree with them!

For god's sake!!!! How mature and honest is that?

Alexandra, if you are reading this, I have to say that I find your response arrogant, offensive, dictatorial and dangerous to any Survivors of child sexual abuse who happen to read it. It is because of 'teachings' like yours that so many survivors relapse in their later years, or feel suicidal because they 'can't' do what you say they should. You don't build hope and healing - you create GUILT and feelings of failure and you strengthen the damage done by abusers in convincing them that they are lacking, unworthy, and you send their self esteem, (what they might still have), RIGHT DOWN THE GURGLER!

(and Alexandra, do not be so condescending as to address me as 'dearest, dearest' and then proceed to tell me who and what I am and what I can and can't do. You aren't God, or Buddha! )

If your way works for you Alexandra, then good for you and I wish you luck!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


das #318243 05/30/07 07:36 AM
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Dear Das, you do not need to explain yourself to anyone, and neither should you. People can be very sanctimonious, and cruel. But that is because they are ignorant of the facts. NO ONE can know the pain of another and NO ONE has the right to set themselves up as judges on what others can and can't do. NO ONE has the authority to say: "Because I could do this, so can you!" That is one of the greatest fallacies in the thinking of many humans.

Every person's experiences are different, and everyone's pain is not the same. You cannot measure pain and you cannot tell someone they don't want to heal, unless you happen to be a trained counsellor who has worked with that person for years and knows them exceptionally well, and even then, no professional counsellor that I know would make such a value judgement on their client anyway. True counselling is in guiding and supporting; - NOT dictating and criticizing.

Everyone is unique and everyone deserves to be shown respect and
not talked down to. We are not cars in an assembly line - and we have to find the path that is best for us, as individuals.

I understand, and I'm sure others do too; - those who sincerely desire to offer support, and do not tell you that you are wrong and that you aren't really trying to help yourself.

Das, do you have someone close to where you live who can give you help and support?

I wish all the very best for you, and will always listen if you wish to talk to someone who has 'been there'.

With loving thoughts,

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


patience #318244 05/30/07 07:56 AM
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Patience,

I do not have somebody near me.
But in you now I have someone.
Sometimes I need to pour myself out without being told to forget and improve. I think you will listen to my pain.
Thank you very much.

das #318398 05/30/07 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: das
I have read posts by patience and Alexandra here. I contribute thus-

When we are abused badly, we tend to lose the mental balance. Most of the thoughts I have are beyond my control. Most of the times, I live in a different world. That world is so different that I can not even explain it. I may call it lunacy.

No suggestions work when I live in that world because I lose control over myself. That is not my fault. Earlier I used to hate myself for losing control. Now, i accept that as a legacy of the abuse I underwent.

Most of the people who never experienced extreme abuse can not understand what goes in me. They give me many ideas. But as I said nothing remains with me when I am in my world.
Bookish knowledge and such things look good but do not work at all. One has to live through the pain in many ways. Slowly the memories get drained and the intensity decreases. And sometimes I feel that nothing has decreased with me.

Sorry, I am not able to explain.


I think you explained yourself quite well. smile

Each of us cares about you das. If you will guide us on what is helpful to you now and what isn't, we'd love to help any way we can.

hollyelise #318433 05/30/07 11:44 PM
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Thanks holly.

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