Patience and Percy will not be returning to this forum. As the only other adult here, I am writing this as an 'epilogue' to show that what was told as truth was called lies or propaganda, and the original question asked was never answered, and finally their own country was put on trial instead of WW2 Japan, which was the topic being discussed.
This is how the discussion began - with a statement:
Never can war ever be justified
Percy then asked a question:
I would also like to ask you what we were SUPPOSED to do? Are you saying that we should have 'turned the other cheek' and allowed these aggressors to invade our countries, raped and butchered our women and children, or stood by and done nothing when we saw other countries being brought into slavery, especially when they cried out for help?
Answers to an honest question:
I agree that there is no easy answer Percy...
But I still have to say that war is not ever the answer
Percy asks the question again:
How exactly would you have stopped the Japanese war machine that was set on the conquest of every country in Asia/Pacific?
If you still think you could have prevented it, or stopped it, I'd really like to know how
Percy's questions are sidetracked (not answered) by introducing another question to lead away from what Percy was asking:
Apart from the moral questions involved, were the atomic bombings militarily necessary? By any rational yardstick, they were not.
Then another sidetrack from the original question by introducing Stalin into the discussion:
In fact, the atocities that Joseph Stalin commited were worse than those that Hitler committed.
Percy brings the discussion back on topic:
Linda, are you suggesting that no action should have been taken to try to stop the carnage the Japanese were inflicting on China?
How else were they going to stop these murderous atrocities? What other measures which did not involve military action were possible please?
These questions were never answered. Instead, the focus was shifted to other areas:
Was it any more wrong of Hitler to exterminate the Jews than it was for us to kill over 200,000 Japanese citizens? How can you justify that kind of carnage? Would what the Japanese did to the Chinese have been any less devastating than what we did to them?
and...
Look at what we are doing in Iraq?
Percy again asks that you stay on topic:
And we are talking about WW2 not any conflicts that have followed. What is happening in Iraq is a totally different subject.
So then Percy's source of information is brought into question and he is told that he hasn't accurate knowledge and ought to pay attention to the Japanese version. (Still no answer to his original question)
Perhaps you should go online and read about the war from the JAPANESE perspective. The story is very different.
and...
You are looking at the whole thing from an Allied point of view.
You aren't looking at the fact that Stalin ran rampant through Europe
(another sidetrack from the original topic.
More introductions of unrelated topics to the point in question, which is "What were we supposed to do about the Japanese advances and invasions?"
People are starving all over the world Percy... and what are the leaders of our countries doing to help prevent that? This war we are fighting is costing billions of dollars that could be used to help the starving rather than to create more of them.
and...
Sorry Percy.. there is no justification for what we did in Japan.. none. You can believe what you want to believe, but I would suggest that you do a THOROUGH search of what the leaders of our country were saying and doing at that time,.......And while you are at.. check out the atrocities of "Uncle Joe Stalin."
Sidetracking and side stepping everywhere to avoid the main issue.
So Percy brings you back on topic yet AGAIN:
If you go back to my original question, which you have not answered (except for the one relating to how WW1 might have been prevented, with which I agree) you will see that I asked you how you proposed that the war with Japan might have been prevented, considering that you had said that it was an unnecessary war.
I still await your answer.
So how would you have stopped the Pacific War from happening?
Again, I ask, HOW do you stop war? You are the one, along with other pacifists who have said it is possible, so I'd like you to tell me how?
Percy received this response:
I still hold by my initial statement that both wars could have been prevented.
And then, an answer, of sorts!
My suggestion.. and you are going to hate this one..lol.. is to put women completely in charge of the world. I think that you would find that things would change drastically and that women would seek and find alternatives to killing one another.
This of course is NOT a logical, workable answer .
Patience then enters the discussion to clarify things, and closes with this statement;
May there one day be true peace in our world, but sadly I can't see it happening in my lifetime. I hope you young ones will see it in yours.
Then comes this 'response' (for lack of a better word) which goes right off the page as far as logic is concerned and turns the discussion, and Percy's 'unanswered question' - which pacifists on this list said there WAS an answer to - into an attack on the way Australia treated its Aboriginals many years ago. I copy it again here so that those who are reading this post can see it.
So Percy.. You feel that Japan deserved to get hit by an atom bomb because of their cruelty to their own people and to the countries they were trying to invade. Correct?
Well, maybe you should look to your own history. It seems to me that a country who needlessly slaughters their fellow countrymen, and then on top of that steps in and separates children from their parents, all for no good reason... hasn't got a whole lot of room to talk about the atocities that were committed by others.
I give you.. The Aborigine people of Australia...
Prior to colonization which began in January 1788, the Australian Aborigines lived a lifestyle based on their Dreamtime beliefs. They had survived as a race for thousands of years and their lifestyle and cultural practices had remained virtually unchanged during that time. We refer to this as the traditional period.
However colonization imposed changes on the Aborigines as people who lived in areas that were being settled by the Europeans, were forced off their land as towns and farms were developed. We identify the period in which the changes took place, as the historical period. The sort of changes that took place usually commenced with explorers entering the area of a tribe and being challenged by the people for trespassing on their land. The Europeans often (usually) responded by shooting at the people. Many were killed. When settlers followed the explorers and began felling trees and building farms, they restricted the ability of the Aborigines to move freely around their land. They also destroyed their traditional food sources.
These changes took place throughout the continent at different times. They began in the Sydney and Parramatta districts from 1788; in the Cowpastures (Campbelltown / Camden)area from the early 1800s and in the Illawarra district from 1815. Gradually - but with increasing speed colonization spread throughout the entire continent.
The settlers had arrived in this country to build a new life for themselves and their families and had 'no time for the Dreamtime'. In other words most were not interested in the affects colonization was having on the Aborigines. In fact they were often considered to be a pest and a nuisance. Many were killed by diseases such as influenza. Thousands were massacred to make way for farms and settlements.
On the other hand some Aboriginal people adapted to the Whitman's laws and the new lifestyle. In doing so, many were reduced to pauperism and were beggars. Others broke the traditional tribal lore's by accepting Brass Plates and by moving into the traditional lands of other tribes. In many cases they had no option in doing this as they were facing starvation or the gun.
Overall, the Australian Aborigines went through stages of being conquered through an 'invasion' and taking of their lands. Many adapted to the new lifestyle (when many became reliant on alcohol, tobacco and handouts of food and clothing. However the settlers were often contemptuous of the Aborigines and separated them from their society and the people became the fringe dwellers of society. Others were removed from their families and placed into institutions. From the late 1830s the remnants of the tribes in the settled areas were moved onto Reserves and Missions where they were 'managed' by Whitemen and were forbidden from teaching their children their language and customs.
During the 1900s separation was an official government policy which lasted for many decades and today, many Aboriginal people do not know their origins. In other words, which tribe they are descended from or the names of their parents and or grandparents. They are a lost generation.
I admit that perhaps the situation is a bit better for them today.. but from what I understand there are still many of your native people who are living in slums.
Now, the USA isn't any better with what we did to the Native Americans here.. Pine Ridge Reservation home of the Lakota in South Dakota is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the States.
The law of Karma is that what goes around comes around.. if we insist on bullying our own people, we really can't complain when someone tries to bully us in return.
_________________________
Linda Paul
This was the exuse for such a response:
I was not attacking anyone. I was merely pointing out that none of our countries are blameless when it comes to oppressing others. And if you reread my post you will see that I did include the US and their treatment of the Native Americans.
Yes, three lines!
I leave readers to decide for themselves.
Ann.
