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Interesting article. The phrase "starting a family" makes me want to throw things, but that article gives me hope that being CF is beginning to lose its stigma. Unfortunately, the hyper kid focused society I live in (US) is far away from the progress in the society Nina is living in (UK).

Elise- I'm one of the women in her 20s with mixed feelings about the term "feminist." My stance is a bit different from many of my peers, however. I believe in equal opportunities but I also believe in accepting and respecting the natural differences of each gender. In other words, I think a woman shouldn't exhaust herself trying to prove she can do everything as well as a man. She has her own strengths and he is self-aware enough to know he can't match her, so he doesn't try. (Of course these strengths and weaknesses vary on an individual basis, but you know what I mean.)
I've chosen to do what makes me happy and does not endanger my health. For me that means I don't always move the furniture alone, even though I probably could and I admit to the world that staying home to bake and clean house is a gig that I'd be honored to have (most writers will do anything to have quiet time alone to write!). I don't refer to myself as a feminist. Am I wrong?

[Side note: The health issue involves injury-induced osteoarthritis in my knee. I'm capable of more heavy lifting than I actually do because my fiance and I want to delay the need for knee replacement surgery as long as we can.]

I do consider myself a feminist, yet I don't even want to do many "man jobs." I let my husband take over the drain cleaning (which is very gross thanks to my hair), crawling under the house whenever needed, and most other repairs and maintenance. I do the traditional woman stuff, like the lion's share of cooking and cleaning. I'm a little resentful about that as it's happening, but he helps out some, and when it's time to crawl under the house, I'm glad to have him. It's just how it is.

If I ever am in the market for a new guy, I will do my darndest to find one that likes to cook, but if he's great in all other ways, then I'd probably overlook that once again. I happen to be more attracted men who are "manly" and can't help it. If that makes me not a "real" feminist to whoever sits judgement on these things, oh well.

Elise- I'm one of the women in her 20s with mixed feelings about the term "feminist." My stance is a bit different from many of my peers, however. I believe in equal opportunities but I also believe in accepting and respecting the natural differences of each gender. In other words, I think a woman shouldn't exhaust herself trying to prove she can do everything as well as a man. She has her own strengths and he is self-aware enough to know he can't match her, so he doesn't try. (Of course these strengths and weaknesses vary on an individual basis, but you know what I mean.)
I've chosen to do what makes me happy and does not endanger my health. For me that means I don't always move the furniture alone, even though I probably could and I admit to the world that staying home to bake and clean house is a gig that I'd be honored to have (most writers will do anything to have quiet time alone to write!). I don't refer to myself as a feminist. Am I wrong?

Stay home to back and clean house? Or stay home to write? I'm not quite clear on what your primary focus would be. Either way, you're not "wrong", and either way, a true feminist would support you in either choice you'd make, Myrabeth...as long as staying home and baking is a *choice*, not your only option in life. Do you agree that there's a distinction there?

Myrabeth, I mentioned about equity feminists believe that "it shouldn't make a difference unless it truly *does* make a difference". I'm not for lowering the demands on sodiers or firefighters just so more women can fit into these fields. I do, however, find the absence of women in the upper levels of management in corporate settings to be curious...hanging out in boardooms in Armani suits and heels, making deals, is something that has nothing to do with upper body strength.

Actually, as CF becomes a more frequent choice for women, perhaps more will crack that glass ceiling. "The Mommy Track" has probably held lots of them back over the years. Perhaps it will start to shift...hell, more than 50% of law students are female now, and many of them end up in business. I wonder about MBAs --- anyone have figures on the ratio of male to female grads in MBA programs?
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Wow...

I didn't mean to hit such a nerve, ladies...I'm sorry if I've offended you, Frieda. It's not about exactly how things are decided in your household, or the exact division of labour. It's the fact that they are decided at all, and that the woman is not just de facto expected to clean, cook, birth babies, etc., that is the main difference since feminism first hit the scene.

Most of us CFs (those of us who don't have infertility problems, anyway), owe so much to the feminists...if it weren't for Margaret Sanger and the Pill and all of that, we'd likely still be talking about college savings funds and teething issues and baby food and v-chips...we'd be mothers, whether we wanted to or not.

We have choices now --- as complicated as that makes life, I say that we're all a ton better off.

I'm married to the most "guy's guy" around...he's into marksmanship, cuts and splits all of our own firewood, goes down to the pub after work every week or two with the guys for a pint. But he does the laundry (he washes and dries; I fold)...I mow the lawn and take care of the garden and landscaping (it's a hobby for me; he, on the other hand, has allergies)...he does the dishes...I do the grocery shopping. I'm the one who futzes around with computers, TVs, and VCRs in the household; he could do it, but just defers to me, even though I don't think I know any more than he does. Neither of us is a really big-time cook, and we joke about that a lot (I do most of it, in the end). I drive our big ol' yard truck to the dump with our trash and recyclables...but he loads up the truck (the dump's only open on Saturdays, when he usually works, so he generally can't make the dump run itself). There's not a huge rhyme or reason behind any of it; it's just about, basically, who hates a particular job less. We've made decisions about it; we've made choices. That's the beauty of it. If he were to make himself miserable with allergies while cutting the lawn just because it's historically been "man's work", that would seem pretty odd to us.

True feminism is about having the full range of choices available to you...no matter which one you make, it is still a choice, and that's the main thing. Some people who call themselves feminists (the gender feminist variety) tend to think that it's all about mother's rights and making sure every office has a lactaction room, etc. --- and that's a part of it, sure. But being CF is part of the feminist spectrum, in sort of the same way the freedom of religion must also encompass freedom FROM religion if that's what one chooses.

Isn't it an interesting time to be alive?

Honestly, both. I find I actually enjoy keeping my little domain clean and tidy. But I also enjoy the fact that I can contribute to our household and still have time to write. Does that make sense?

(Currently I work part time, do 70% of the cooking, and 90% of the cleaning while my fiance picks up the remainder of the housework and works more than 3 times the hours I do. Our household policy has always been to adjust the percentage of home responsibilities proportionately with work responsibilities.)

Sounds pretty "feminist" to me...

The pre-feminist way of thinking is that even if there were no jobs in your husband's line of work, he would be working --- even if you could go to work, that would be a last-ditch choice. Your set-up with your fiance sounds like it's all about choice and equally contributing to your household.

In my MBA class it was approx 60% women...

About the low % of women in top level management, I'm wondering if it is partially due to priorities? Are more women passionate about having a work - life balance? I know that I don't want to give up my personal time to advance into management. In most firms, large amounts of overtime is an expected part of rising into higher management and I just don't care to do that.
I'm sure part of it is the "old boys club", and part is that many women devote their time to their kids, but I'd be interested in a study that tried to determine other reasons that women are under represented in top management positions.

Elise, I wasn't offended at all by what you said, though now when I reread what I wrote, I can see why you thought that. Sorry! I agree with all you've said. I didn't mean YOU were sitting judgement about it... Sorry it sounded that way.

I was referring more to the Andrea Dworkin/gender feminists with that "sitting in judgement" remark, because they are the ones pointing a finger and saying "you are not a true feminist because you ______(fill in blank with traditional woman role activity)."

When I was in college there were "political lesbians" which sound very much like gender feminists. They took it to the extreme of renouncing sex with men, even if that was their preference. I always thought that was kind of funny. I couldn't go for it, but it did make me think.

I am so grateful to the women who came before us and paved the road for us to have more choice in our lives. It worries me that so many younger women aren't willing to say they're feminists.

I married a pretty old-fashioned guy, so it has been somewhat of a struggle. We've got it to a place where, as you so aptly put it, we each do the jobs we hate less. Sometimes it will seem out of balance to me and I'll feel frustrated. That probably came out in my last post if I sounded a bit shrill. Other times it seems fine. Remembering the big picture and to feel gratitude helps.

I was referring more to the Andrea Dworkin/gender feminists with that "sitting in judgement" remark, because they are the ones pointing a finger and saying "you are not a true feminist because you ______(fill in blank with traditional woman role activity)."

When I was in college there were "political lesbians" which sound very much like gender feminists. They took it to the extreme of renouncing sex with men, even if that was their preference. I always thought that was kind of funny. I couldn't go for it, but it did make me think.

Maybe the wave of "gender feminism" was necessary for a bit, just to push the pendulum farther to the opposite side so it could swing back to something more reasonable. But they also did a lot of damage, and they'd be the last to ever acknowledge it. It's as if, when they found a problem with how women are treated in society, their approach was to "cut off the broken leg" rather than splint it and let it heal. I'd rather keep both legs, thanks...men are wonderful and useful creatures to have around!



The other thing that's amazing about the gender geminist crowd is that they're sort of the polar opposite of the MNK/CF crowd...gender feminists want men around only for procreative purposes (they're so low on the totem pole, in gender feminist thought, that maybe they should be kept in fenced corrals until their DNA is needed to impregnante Enlightened "Wymyn"); MNK/CF women want men around for everything but procreation. To say that I have less than zero use for the average gender feminist is an understatement. Fortunately, Andrea Dworkin is dead...and not much missed, either, from what I can tell.