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I used to explore drainage pipes under our neighborhood too�what fun!

Ali, I do understand the catch-22 you describe. We live in an environment where being called a "bad", "irresponsible" or "negligent" parent is about the worst insult that anyone can receive. So when a neighbor parent says that they could just never ever leave their kids outside alone for a second, it's pretty much impossible not to agree or even one-up them.
And I definitely agree with you that there can be good reasons for concern (creepy neighbor, v young kids, whatever). But from my perspective the overall hysteria is overblown.
This, for me, is a definite perk of being CF. Nobody can question my parenting skills if I don't have kids.

Oh, I don't doubt it at all. That little secret alone is probably reason enough to [censored] off parents who are envious of your free time and who feel like they're doing a thankless job. Which is where I guess the rub comes in for me personally. On the one hand, I applaud the fact that people who have decided not to have children have come to that decision as a result of reasoned consideration, and I wish a few more young adults and adolescents were made aware of this option and were more educated about the responsibilites of parenthood. So many people become enamored with the idea of a baby that they simply do not pause to consider what it's like to have a toddler, a tweenie, or a teenager. It's great to see all of you lifting the veil of blind obedience to tradition and letting people know that it's okay to put off having kids, or to space your kids out (mine are 6 1/2 years apart), or simply not to have them at all. And the decision not to have kids is not necessarily a selfish decision, either. I met a woman once who wanted to have kids very badly but, as someone who had come from a long line of child abusers, decided not to because she wanted to put an end to the line of abuse. So thinking rationally about the choice to have or not to have children should not be viewed as a negative. On the other hand, we parents do sometimes find it hard to tolerate the criticisms of people who don't have children for one reason or another and who find it all to easy to dish out harsh judgments on people whose responsibilities they themselves have never experienced. It's so easy to point out the flaws in someone else's behavior when you yourself are never held up to comparison.

Anyway, not that I think you personally are guilty of that. I see your smiley face, and I sense your empathy. Not everyone who decides to remain childless is a parent-basher, thankfully. And conversely, I hope you all realize that not every parent feels it is necessary to blame child-free couples for the choices we have made for ourselves. Are we envious of your free time on occasion? Of course! I'd be lying if I didn't say so. But I love my children dearly, and I in no way regret my decision to have them. I have chosen my path, and you have chosen yours, and hopefully we were both informed about reality when we chose them. Whether we have children or not, we all owe it to ourselves, and to each other, to make our decisions wisely, and to politely encourage others to do the same.

Yes, as you say, there are multiple reasons to be CF. One of my biggest ones is actually thinking about having an older child. I love babies, but don't relate well to older children. It's all about careful consideration of your own capabilities and personality...

anyway, I think we probably see eye to eye on many aspects of this. Thanks for the vote of confidence btw, and also btw, I have the same Devil Duckie- in pink!

Oh, I don't doubt it at all. That little secret alone is probably reason enough to [censored] off parents who are envious of your free time and who feel like they're doing a thankless job. Which is where I guess the rub comes in for me personally. On the one hand, I applaud the fact that people who have decided not to have children have come to that decision as a result of reasoned consideration, and I wish a few more young adults and adolescents were made [i]aware of this option and were more educated about the responsibilites of parenthood. So many people become enamored with the idea of a baby that they simply do not pause to consider what it's like to have a toddler, a tweenie, or a teenager. It's great to see all of you lifting the veil of blind obedience to tradition and letting people know that it's okay to put off having kids, or to space your kids out (mine are 6 1/2 years apart), or simply not to have them at all. [/i]

I'm with you, Ali. Seeing your work on the Atheist board, you have a good grasp of what goes into "lifting the veil of blind obedience".

And the decision not to have kids is not necessarily a selfish decision, either.

You lost me here, Ali. I would say it is NEVER a selfish decision. A person who has kids thoughtlessly and then doesn't care for them properly? That is selfish. Given where we are with the environment and with the number of kids who need mentoring, the decision not to have kids of one's own not only puts less stress on our resources (good for my niece and nephew; good for your kids), but also opens CFs up to having time to mentor. Two or three of us on this board alone have been Big Sisters/Big Brothers.

People make a big fuss about how their kids will be paying our social security support when we are old (if there's any left to be had, that is). However, we are paying for your kid's schools, and will never use that service. It's a wash. There is no selfishness here.

Knowing what one wants out of life, as long as you're not hurting anyone, is not selfish. The "selfish" thing is just a really old, tired term than many people seem throw at us reflexively. It's time for it to go.

I met a woman once who wanted to have kids very badly but, as someone who had come from a long line of child abusers, decided not to because she wanted to put an end to the line of abuse. So thinking rationally about the choice to have or not to have children should not be viewed as a negative.

She made a great choice. But nothing that dramatic in terms of reasons is necessary to make a good, non-selfish choice to be CF. "I just don't want to" is sufficient.

On the other hand, we parents do sometimes find it hard to tolerate the criticisms of people who don't have children for one reason or another and who find it all to easy to dish out harsh judgments on people whose responsibilities they themselves have never experienced. It's so easy to point out the flaws in someone else's behavior when you yourself are never held up to comparison.

We're held up for comparison all the time by parents (witness the "selfish" mantra); just not for our parenting skills. My hat is off to all parents who are putting effort into it (which is the vast majority). I really do believe it is the toughest job anyone can do --- which is why I'm puzzled why so many people seem to think that it's a job suited to everyone.

Not everyone who decides to remain childless is a parent-basher, thankfully.

Particularly not on this board. It's one of the reasons I've stayed here (in addition to the fact that the vast majority of posts on this board are well-thought-through, grammatically correct, and therefore easy to understand! Thanks, everyone!).

And conversely, I hope you all realize that not every parent feels it is necessary to blame child-free couples for the choices we have made for ourselves. Are we envious of your free time on occasion? Of course! I'd be lying if I didn't say so. But I love my children dearly, and I in no way regret my decision to have them. I have chosen my path, and you have chosen yours, and hopefully we were both informed about reality when we chose them. Whether we have children or not, we all owe it to ourselves, and to each other, to make our decisions wisely, and to politely encourage others to do the same.

Right. And I appreciate your willingness to not only see childrearing as a choice, but to encourage other people to see it that way, too. I'm a high school teacher, and I see my students checking out my lifestyle. They are *very* curious about it, and seemingly glad to know that there are choices out there --- even in the area of whether or not to be a parent (i.e., not just "when").

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Ali ---

Elise

What a good thing that you're able to discuss your personal decision with high school students on childbearing to show them that the traditional model of two kids, two dogs, and a white picket fence does not fit everyone! I hope you haven't received any flack about that. It seems ridiculous that we are not able to discuss important issues like family in schools for fear of offending traditionalists. When we don't talk to each other about our personal decisions, people end up with the impression that everyone fits some cookie-cutter mold and that only selfish, immoral people dare to break it. This just isn't true! There are responsible, moral people who go against tradition in all sorts of ways, not because they are rebellious anarchists, but because for them, that path just doesn't work. As an atheist, I "get" it when you say that you're tired of being accused of being selfish because your reason has led you in a different direction. Instead of drawing conclusions about people based on labels such as "atheist" or "childless," I wish we could all concentrate on how these people actually live, because many of them (us) contribute to society just as much, if not more, than traditional religious families do.

I agree with much of what you said Ali. About this "not necessarily selfish" part�I have to say it rankles me to hear this. I hear this so much, and it is one of the many reasons I was looking for people to talk with in my situation and found this forum.

I don't see what the connection is between not having children and being selfish. It's like saying someone is not necessarily selfish because they're not a firefighter, or not a doctor. Or saying a parent is not necessarily selfish because they gave birth rather than adopting. It's assuming that most of us made this choice because we're selfish, but occasionally there is an unselfish one of us in the bunch (as long as we decided due to a valid reason that a parent judges is acceptable, like being a victim of child abuse or having tragic health complications).

There are plenty of children already in this world. It's gotten to the point where I see no real societal purpose, and even less environmental purpose for everyone to have children. Parents do not have the monopoly on generosity. There are plenty of arguments that could be made the other way around in fact. For a lot of us our decision has nothing to do with things like being abused as children, or wanting to be obsessed career people, or not wanting to share. There are many possible reasons for the choices we make in our lives.

I think you're reading too much into what I said, perhaps because you're so used to hearing that word in a negative context. My point is precisely the opposite of saying that not having a child is a selfish decision. The decision to have or have not is not necessarily linked to selfishness in either direction. That is, it is a "neutral" decision in and of itself; the reasons behind it, which vary from individual to individual, may not be.

In other words, some people decide to have children for "selfish" reasons (i.e. "I want a cute baby to play with"), some for unselfish reasons (i.e. "I have a lot of love and wisdom to impart, and I'd like to pass it down to a child"). Likewise, some people decide not to have children for selfish reasons ("I want to spend all my time on myself and my career") and some for unselfish reasons ("I can contribute to society in positive ways without having to take an the overwhelming responsibility of rearing a child in such a complex world"). Neither decision is necessarily selfish, and neither is necessarily unselfish. In both cases, the person is getting something out of it that he or she wants (which is "selfish" in a sense), and in both cases the person is (hopefully) contributing to society in their own way (which is altruistic). A decision is only selfish if it does more harm to others than good, while reaping benefits for you alone.

So let's judge who is selfish and who is not on the basis of their treatment of all human beings, not just the ones they're related to. It's great that (most) parents can be loving and nurturing towards their children. But in the end, that isn't enough if they're racist, xenophobic, intolerant money-hoarders. Whether you're a parent or not, selfish is as selfish does.

"some people decide not to have children for selfish reasons ("I want to spend all my time on myself and my career")" ... Yikes!

I'd have to disagree that this is "selfish". What is wrong with one being honest about wanting to focus on themselves and their career rather than on offspring? I think it's a lot more selfish to bring another child into this overpopulated world just because one thinks they have value to share. How about sharing it w/an existing child? Just a thought.

Nosy, I agree with you 100%. I am CF because I like the freedom of knowing I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. However, I always try to be as generous as possible with my time and my resources. I never think the world revolves around me and I NEVER intentionally act in a way that would hurt someone else's feelings. The definition of "selfish" comes up on this forum a lot, because many of us have been accused of selfishness, but I'll re-post it:

SELFISH: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Although I like my freedom, I am always willing to drop everything to help out a friend in need--ALWAYS. I devote a TON of time making sure my dog knows he is loved. I spend most of my disposable income on things for others (I love shopping for me, too, but shopping for something to make OTHERS happy is the best feeling I know!) After talking with many of the people on this forum, I know the same is true for them!

I guess the moral of the story here is to have faith in ourselves and our CF decision. We are always going to come under the scrutiny of others, just like atheists, football players, or any other designated group of people. We are good people, and I frankly don't care if anyone confirms that.