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Hi again!

Here are the passages from The Book of Certitude (part of the Baha'i scriptures) that I'd mentioned:


161 �[i]t is evident � that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: �No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!� 2 For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the kawthar [river] of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath 153 Muhammad, the Point of the Qur��n, revealed: �I am all the Prophets.� Likewise, He saith: �I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.� Similar statements have been made by �Al�. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God�s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: �Our Cause is but one.� Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same�.
162 �It is clear and evident � that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring 154 in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: �I am the return of all the Prophets,� He verily speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established. Inasmuch as the return of the Prophets of God, as attested by verses and traditions, hath been conclusively demonstrated, the return of their chosen ones also is therefore definitely proven.�

pp. 152-153


191 �We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. �No distinction do We make between any of them.� 14 The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: �Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave 177 manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.� 15
192 �It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well-springs of divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of divine wisdom, all their utterances are in reality but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they therefore feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.
193 �It hath ever been evident that all these divergences of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been and are applicable to those Essences of being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God 178 is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the divine Being.
194 �Viewed in the light of their second station�the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards,�they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution and complete self-effacement. Even as He saith: �I am the servant of God. 16 I am but a man like you.� 17
195 �From these incontrovertible and fully demonstrated statements strive thou to apprehend the meaning of the questions thou hast asked, that thou mayest become steadfast in the Faith of God, and not be dismayed by the divergences in the utterances of His Prophets and Chosen Ones.
196 �Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: �I am God!� He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: �Those shafts were God�s, not 179 Thine!� 18 And also He saith: �In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.� 19 And were any of them to voice the utterance: �I am the Messenger of God,� He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: �Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.� 20 Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim: �I am the Seal of the Prophets,� they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the �Beginning� and the �End,� the �First� and the �Last,� the �Seen� and �Hidden��all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: �We are the servants of God,� this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply 180 immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man�s heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.
197 �In this day the breeze of God is wafted, and His Spirit hath pervaded all things. Such is the outpouring 181 of His grace that the pen is stilled and the tongue is speechless.
198 By virtue of this station, they have claimed for themselves the Voice of Divinity and the like, whilst by virtue of their station of Messengership, they have declared themselves the Messengers of God. In every instance they have voiced an utterance that would conform to the requirements of the occasion, and have ascribed all these declarations to Themselves, declarations ranging from the realm of divine Revelation to the realm of creation, and from the domain of Divinity even unto the domain of earthly existence. Thus it is that whatsoever be their utterance, whether it pertain to the realm of Divinity, Lordship, Prophethood, Messengership, Guardianship, Apostleship or Servitude, all is true, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Therefore, these sayings which We have quoted in support of Our argument must be attentively considered, that the divergent utterances of the Manifestations of the Unseen and Daysprings of Holiness may cease to agitate the soul and perplex the mind. �

pp. 176-181


Regards,

Well I think I've learned all I need to learn of this faith. The most important thing to remember is if you cannot say something is wrong then you cannot say anything is right. There is no way that baha'u'llah is God in any way shape or fashion. I will move on to truer pastures. Thank you for your time. I will pray for you.

Greetings!

We Baha'is most assuredly DO say that certain things are wrong and certain things are right, this being a reflection of what our scriptures say!

But that in no way prevents multiple meanings from applying to certain things where there is more than one true/correct viewpoint....

And as I've already stressed, we fully agree that Baha'u'llah is not God, however much He reflects and communicates to us God's Will and teachings. . . .

Peace, and do keep in touch! As always, further questions are most welcome.

And I do hope the passages I posted give you a clearer idea of why we take the position we do.

Best,

It is sad that so many can be combative when they have asked for an explanation. I am a Christian/Wiccan and do not neccessarily agree with your teachings but wanted to find out what you believe. Let's all just live and let live. Peoples beliefs all transcend explanation so why fight over them. I am sorry that you have to defend yourself so vigorously to someone who professed to be asking for information. God/Goddess blessings on you.

Hi, MSW, and welcome to the forum! :-)

Very briefly, the most central teaching of the Baha'i Faith is, as I mentioned in message 2, what we call the "Three Onenesses," which are:
- the Oneness of God, Who is known by many names in the various languages and cultures,
- the oneness of humanity, and
- the common foundation of all the great religions, which are all stages in a single ever-evolving faith, the Faith of God!

You can learn more at various Baha'i web sites, including www.bahai.org and www.bahai.us and (in the US) also get free literature and further information (including the location of the closest Baha'is if you like) by phoning 1-800-22-UNITE.

And one other place you might want to check for general information and answers to questions is the "Forum" section of the Planet Baha'i website at www.planetbahai.org as it has a great mix of people who can provide you lots of answers from a number of perspectives!

My regards, and I wish you good hunting! :-)

Oh--and as always further questions are most welcome, so please ask away!

Best,

Bruce

Wow things are picking up in here. Keep the communications flowing.

I will try and catch up and keep up as soon as I recoop from my vacation.

Thanks again Emaster and Bruce

Hey Bruce
I read your conversation with Emaster, really enjoyed and learned a lot.
I heard some stories about Bahallah. He lived in Boushehr or around this city and had this ability to look at the sun straightly.
Already I thought Bahallah, revealed himself as Mehdi, but as saw your statement it was wrong.
I think Islam believe that Gospel disappeared after Jesus and some of his pupils wrote these Gospels so aren�t origin. In the other hand Quran or Koran didn�t collected and issued as a book until Omar or Osman, second and third Khalifas, hence maybe had some changes, beside some historian think that first of all Quran wrote in Aramaic language and then translated to Arabic so has some misunderstanding.
I will be glad to know your opinion about these.

I think you were right about meaning of "Nabi" and "Rasole".
Nice to meet you.

Bruce
pardon for my sentences above, maybe they bring some controversy so need not you answer them.
religion isn't my issue anyway. just one question.
what's differences between men and women in your relign?
I guess you know about this case in Islam.
Best regards

Hi again, Babak!

(Sorry about the delay in getting back to you: I've been away.)

It's been good to meet you, too! :-)



Hmmm. I've been a Baha'i over 35 years, and I've never heard this one! I suspect it only ranks as a pilgrim's note, which is to say, as somebody's hearsay.

In any case, it's nothing to which I think we'd attach importance. (It may well have been meant metaphorically, anyway.)



In fact, the Bab (Baha'u'llah's immediate precursor, fulfilled the prophecies for both the Mahdi ("the rightly-guided one") and the Qa'im ("he who shall arise"). And He in turn stated that His sole mission was to announce the imminent coming of "He Whom God will make manifest," i.e., Baha'u'llah.



Relatively few.

The Baha'i Faith stresses the equality of men and women, and we're involved in promoting this world wide! And indeed, one of the eighteen Letters of the Living (the Bab's original followers, equivalent to Apostles) was Tahireh, a woman renowned for taking off her veil (in Nineteenth-Century Persia) and proclaiming the equality of women.

We do not, however, view men and women as identical as each has special functions.

In the Baha'i scriptures Baha'u'llah states that membership in the Universal House of Justice, our world-level elected administrative body, is to be composed of men only, and what women are "exempted" (His term) from this. We don't really understand His reason for this, but our scriptures tell us that someday we'll understand why it's so.

All other Baha'i institutions are fully open to everyone, and women serve in all other positions in the Faith, including those carrying far more prestige than membership in the House (which is considered a role of service not conferring any special status).

And our scriptures also give women a special privelege: women--all women everywhere, not some tiny number like the nine mebers of the House above: all women take precedence over men for receipt of education!

For example, if a family cannot afford to send both a son and a daughter for higher education, priority must be awarded the daughter! (Of course, in this case the community should assist in educating the son also.)



In the Baha'i viwe only the Qur'an and the Baha'i scriptures are completely intact and unchanged. The Bible, while valuable scripture, is no longer completely pristine and has suffered a few changes (as evinced by the fact that, for example, even most Christians now reject the end of Mark as spurious). Fortunately, the Bible's spiritual message has still not been damaged!

Do feel free to keep the questions coming: they're most welcome!

Best,

Bruce