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I can't agree more! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you are talking about those who try to do things the right way. Those are not the kind of people that Fire was talking about. Fire was talking about those individuals who think that the gov't or we taxpayers owe them something. In other words. We have to support all those kids they continue to have, in the form of our tax $'s. They can't afford to have kids, but they continue to have them because they know that the taxpayers will continue to support them. I agree with Fire on this one. That is not right. I am CPA. I do a lot of taxes for people who can't wait to get those hand outs. There is a difference between those who take advantage of the system and those who really work hard and do the best for their family without taking advantage of others.

Honestly I was taking about both types of people because I am more concerned with the children in the matter then the adults. I agree it is disinheartening when someone chooses to have a child at 15 or chooses to have 10 kids with 10 different fathers. The students I teach are often the product ot such situtations and cutting social programs such as welfare or education programs will hurt them, not their parents. Furthermore, cutting such programs only furhters the cycle and sets them up to become parents at 16 and so on and so on. I would rather live in a society that supported its weakest members, even if they are at fault. I feel this way about all social issues, not just children. I dont see the point in cutting dollars to prisons so that prisoners suffer more or dont have education or health care either, and certainly many of them or more guilty then the parents of these kids. If our taxes are going to be lowered we could start with cutting the ridiculous amount that goes to national defense or to help corporations. I also t hink that the attitude that money spent on social programs that dont benefit you is very silly. So are you not going to pay taxes to build roads you dont drive on or support a hospital you choose not to go to too? A society requires that members support a variety of socila services, even if they dont all use them. The most important point here though is that there is no such thing as an undeserving baby that choose to be born to take your tax dollars. Maybe if you had to take the food and medical care from these babies yourself you would see what I mean.

Thank you Fiddle for seeing the obviousness in my post.

tubby: What the h ell are you talking about living in a bubble world? Do you know what I do for a living? I'm significantly involved in the everyday goings on in this screwed-up world, so don't you dare suggest I live in a 'bubble'. As a Range Medic for Ft. Dix, NJ, I was sent to ground zero in NYC for three days - that's 9/11; 9/12; and 9/13, I was de-briefed and sent back for a week for recovery of 'PARTS', you little snob b&%#h; you pompassed brat, how braizen of you to suggest I hate kids or have no sympathy or awareness for the suffering they endure. I don't take, I give, of my time AND my money - regardless of what Uncle Sam takes and does God only knows what with. Watch your words and accusations, this isn't the first time you've insulted me. I ignored it the first time.

I work my @ss off and over 35% of my taxes go to what? where? I donate quarterly to five organizations, two of which are CHILDRENS organizations. You THINK you know about National Defense and the like, you don't know squat. Think you don't want prisoners to suffer huh? Come work with me in the City and have one try to reach up your shirt while you're treating them or grab your crotch. I have plenty of sympathy, but I have to live too, pay my bills invest in my future and enjoy a few things before I die. I am not the only able-bodied soul in this world that can work and pay taxes, but there sure are a lot of them milking off my tits, and I'm sick of it.

Read Neil Boortz's book then come talk to me about taxes.

Fire

You certainly use some intersting language in a supposedly refined forum. For your information I live in NYC and lost a friend and a relative on 9/11 so I am aware what it was like. I also work with children with severe disabilites and did an internship in a prison. My point about the prisoners was not to say that they are innocent but to say my own personal view, which I am not forcing down anyones throat, is that I would want to live in a society that protects and treats its weakest members. I too experienced cat calling, but it didnt effect my feelings about programs in prisons. You tell me I am ignorant yet you are foolish enough to believe that cuts to welfare and social programs will reduce the number of children born into poverty when they never have. Also althuogh it is very generous of you to donate to childrens organizations you are mistaken if you think that any private agency will raise enough money to keep children out of poverty, for that we need welfare. My point was that when we take money from social service programs like head start and food stamps and other programs we are hurting the children not hte parents, and no matter how you feel about kids they are innocent victims. Also my point about defense was that the lions share of our taxes goes to defense not social service programs. In the future perhaps you could keep to a more civilized tone in a debate and refrain from personal insults and name calling directed at me and other members of the forum, that would seem to be the adult thing to do. Also my comment about the bubble was meant to refer to a large majority of middle class people, both childfree and not who I feel live in bubbles and do not see poverty first hand and are not affected by it, so to them it does not exist. I witness poverty and the effects of poverty every day first hand. I was not refering to you personally as I like to keep a civilized tone in debate. You obviously have a great deal of anger and honestly I feel badly for you.
Also I would love to know when I insulted you, perhaps I disagreed with you but a disagreement is not an insult.

Also I really dont get the connection to 9/11. What does that have to do with kids and social services for kids

"Hopefully, this won't end up being a negative post, but if would be helpful for me to be able to vent a bit..."

...

I apologize for the negativity in my own post. I was only attempting to express and defend my feelings, I dont expect everyone to agree with me. I did not mean any of my comments to be directed personally at someone what I was criticizing was a mindset I disagree with, which is the essence of debate. My problem began when personal language was used against me to insult me simply because I disagreed with another poster. I apologize to everyone else. I really appreciate fiddledeedees comments as she disagreed with me but was civil and respectful. I understand my beliefs are my own and are not shared by everyone, I only ask that others understand the same about thier beliefs.

Tubby,

Seeing some of the posts from today and yesterday, I too am a little taken aback by the actual language, but support the fact that the people who are here often use this forum to vent --- a place where CFs can completely drop the deferential attitude society seems to expect of us. When newbies to the group come in and challenge that tone (rather than lurking or posting in a respectful tone), people can get their backs up.

I'm not sure where the term "elite" and "childfree" got mixed together, or even exactly what the term "elite" means (on Fox news, it seems to mean "those liberal people who don't watch Fox news and --- gasp --- might not even watch TV at all"). But if one goes back to the old meaning of the word, it generally means top-drawer, wealthy, well-educated, etc.

This particular childfree woman (a private school teacher whose salary is in the mid $30K range and whose husband's salary for his work as a city letter carrier for the US Postal Service is about 1.5 times that) may be many things, but "elite" sure ain't one of them.

Elise

I really don't give a rat's behind if you or anyone else do not approve of my choice of language. I call it like it is. Adults do use language that is rougher sometimes, that's why it is called 'adult language'. I curse; don't like it, don't read it. But I'm not going to pussy-foot around and worry about hurting your feelings when you're treating me like an idiot. And please don't pretend to be dumbfounded about what I'm talking about.

What you're aware of is what it felt like to lose someone you knew. You STILL haven't one clue what it was like being there, smelling the smells, treating the firefighters, police officers and others. You don't know what it was like to pick up fingers and hands and put them in bags and label them, or how I felt when I saw pictures of CHILDREN and pieces of TOYS that the CHILDREN played with. I'll let you figure out how that has anything to do with having sympathetic feelings towards any child in despair or need.

Feel free to apologize all you want about your own tone and negativity - I make no apologies for mine. I spoke what I felt, and I had no idea this was a 'refined' forum - whatever.

You did an internship in prison for what? Talking to them through a cell? Please. Prisoners aren't weak my dear, just smart enough to schmooze the likes of suckers like you.

I never said private organizations would save the whole freakin' world, but niether is welfare, so what's your point? Mine was that I do more than my part. I'm only one person. Perhaps because your job depends on my tax dollars, your opinions are biased - no tax support for your programs, no job for tubby.

Please highlight for me where I called you ignorant - you sure do like to play with words and create your own drama, I NEVER called you ignorant. Yet you called me foolish for believing cuts in welfare would reduce the number of children born. Again, please point out where in my response I said anything remotely close to this? You're creating things that I never even said. Explain this.

And please, don't waste your time on feeling badly for me. I don't have any anger penned up in me because I reguarly let my feelings out. I learned this in medic school - it's called debriefing. It's the people who keep everything inside that you should worry about, you know, going postal? However, you p issed me off. I told you - I feel better.

I think it would behoove you to read future posts you respond to a little more carefully as it appears you have quite the overactive imagination. Go back, re-read my post and then yours. You will see how you made a mountain out of a mole hill. Perhaps because I stepped on your toes, or maybe because you're not the goody-two-shoes you make yourself out to be and enjoy stirring the fire. I don't know, but I'm not going to dismiss all your created accusations.

Fire