BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Can Atheism REALLY be defended?

kibrisli7 :

I don't see what any of your ranting has to do with atheism. It is the rant of a rambling mind.

Atheism doesn't preclude perceiving order in the universe or preclude the perception of a life force or energy.

Atheism simply indicates the lack of belief in an anthrophomorphic "God" deity.

End of story. It's not about science. It's about one's perception about the organizing principles of the universe.

There is no God. God does not exist. That is atheism.

Denise,
You should see me over here with a pencil and paper trying to draw a "family tree" branching off monkeys, neaderthals, and men, LOL!

Kibrilis,

We may have to start a whole new thread just on evolution!

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This is fun!!!

YankeeLass, I think you have confused a couple of things here. Let me restate what I am telling you based on all these long speeches. Let me restate my thesis basically. I am saying Objective Moral Laws can't exist without a Moral Lawgiver. By Objective Moral Laws I mean moral values that are valid and binding whether someone believes in it or not. For example Rape is objectively wrong. It doesn't matter who thinks what. It still would be wrong even if the "Church Priest" or Atheist Leader or whoever said it was right. It would always be wrong. Same with child abuse. The Holocaust was objectively wrong and it doesn't matter if the Nazi's would have won the World War 2, It still would have been wrong.
Now if God didn't exist these moral laws wouldn't be objective in this way. Now the question is not "Must we believe in God to live a moral live?" I am not saying we must. The question is also not "Can we know the Moral laws without believeing in God?" I think we can. I am not saying that "We can't have a sufficient system of ethics without refrence to God." So long as we assume that human beings have objective moral value, atheist could probably draft a moral code that theist with agree with.

But if human beings are just accidantal by-product of nature that has just evolved and I don't see any reason that in obsence of God, they have any kind of special values. They are just a speck of dust in a huge mindless universe and are going to perish indiviually or collectivally in a ralatively short time. On the atheistic view, some actions, say rape, may not be socially advantagous, so in the course of human development has become tabu; but that doesn't obsolutely nothing to prove that rape is really wrong. So without God there is no obsolute right and wrong. But we do know that Objective moral values exist therefore there has to be an unchangeable Moral Lawgiver. Otherwise Moral laws become subjective or what a person chooses or thinks what is right and wrong. But we know that a person can't make a moral law because then another person can't call actions of other people wrong.
So basically my arguement is as the following
If God doesn't exist, objective moral values don't exist.
Objective moral values does exist.
Therefore God exist.

I don't see how you can make the above as a conclusive statement and not expect to be laughed out of the room.



Yes, I got that, but it's absurd. I don't even know how someone might think it makes sense to say such a thing. There can be an all encompassing objective moral standard without a God. It's just a little harder to make people follow if you don't threaten them with hell.

Now this statement I don't agree with. As a general rule I don't go around preaching fire and brimstone. I realize that my introduction on this board did bring up the subject, but if you look at the majority of my posts around all of the forums - I steer away from the "threats" aspect of Hell and damnation.

I prefer to show people the example of Christ's love and what He has done in my life, because I feel that is so much more important than what happens than if one doesn't have Christ. I guess I like the example of the positive rather than the negative, because I feel that is more important.

(Sorry, I realize this post was rather off topic from the scientific proof debate. Back to the topic at hand!) <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Scarey thing is alot of "religious" people think like this. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
"thank god" they have their religion to keep them on the straight and narrow.

Well freespirit thanks for joining us here and already insulting us which I don't mind at all. Actually why don't you do as all a favor and read the everything that is written in this post before saying who is preaching hell here and who is giving us logical arguements for what they are saying. You did say that "Objective moral laws can exist without God" but you didn't give us any good arguements for saying so. I would really appreciate it if you really give us some good arguements rather than just good comments based on just what you belief.

If it does not apply to you then you should not feel insulted. I dont think I said anything insulting at all.Notice I said alot not all religious people??? Maybee you should question why you feel insulted by what I said.

He feels insulted because he's an idiot. Now he *really* has cause to feel insulted. LOL

He is very persistent but that type usually are <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do you think it could be TD?