BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Can Atheism REALLY be defended?

Darn, and here I thought I finally had a great idea for a new religion <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Guess I'll have to continue to work for a living. (Just kidding - I've read their stuff before. Thanks for the new stuff though - hadn't seen this one.)

I'll give you MY arguement: YOu have NO solid proof for your belief that God created the universe, no matter how much you believe it to be so. You accept it on your faith and the writings, opinons and biased findings of others who share your beliefs. Quoting them is not fact.

Those who claim that the universe somehow evolved from nothing have no proof of that either. There is NO actual way to prove that this was how the universe was created. Whatever anyone says is just theory. They may be able to go back a certain number of years to prove this or that but there is no way any magical evolutionary starting point will ever be found.

I will though admit that if "God" were to come down today and specifically SAY that "Yes, I created the universe in 6 days (ON the 7th he supposedly rested so it took 6 not 7 days) back in 6007 BC.") then I will admit I was wrong and that you Creationists were correct.

If you REALLY think about it, what difference does it make?
Is it somehow going to make mylife or your life or the lives of anyone else on this board any better becausee God created or didn't create the universe?

If you all really read that Bible you quote from so much you should know that "God" says in there not to "give heed to needless arguements". To me that means arguing about things which we will never have proof of.

In choosing whether or not to respond to people like godlovesyou and his pal, we need to keep in mind that most of these people view atheism as a religion or at least as a system of thought. That they have defined it in this way is the first sign that they have no interest in the reality, preferring to create something out of whole cloth and then hold it up as a punching bag. When you forget that and argue along the lines that they lay out, you support their belief in their correctness. They don't care that there is no standard definition of atheism (even atheists argue about it), that there is no atheist bible or other document to refer to, no set of rules or beliefs. All they care about is proving their own right thinking, no matter how much they have to twist logic and facts, and ignore reality to do it.

They are not amenable to reason (how can you reason with someone who doesn't know the difference between a fact and an opinion?), so continued discussion with them, on the grounds that they have laid out, is not only a waste of time, it reinforces them and encourages them to continue in their intrusions into spaces where they have absolutely nothing to offer.

And that's my final word on people who I consider little better than trolls.

EXCELLENT POINTS Catana! It is a waste of time to keep arguing with people who are trying to convince US of a point, which most of us either once believed or have chosen never to believe.

I used to believe in what they were saying, until I really thought about it and came to the conclusion it makes no sense.

I've stayed away from this forum for the most part because I am a Christian, and so this isn't my "place" so to speak.

I will note that the previous editor of the atheism/agnostic site and I were on very good terms and often had our own little conversations away from the board - and the main reason he never really bothered with the forums is because he said all that ever really happened was that people came on here trying to "convert" him! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

K7 and I have had momentous debates <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> over Christianity vs. Islam, so I can say without a doubt that he is indefatigable! Since I happen to agree with Jordan, I personally think he is a breath of fresh air. (I have been surprised by more than one personality that I have met here online as to who they know!) I also think there have been some very ugly remarks made about character on here just because people cannot always counter an argument. Not by everyone - the debate is very interesting so far.

I will reiterate the one comment that Jenna thought was made lightly, but I make in all seriousness - if I am wrong in my beliefs as to my God and you all are right, then I lose nothing, I just cease to exist. But, if I am right, then everyone that just dismisses God (for whatever reason, science, logic, anger...) is facing a far worse eternity. And that is not something to take lightly - eternity is something we as humans cannot really conceive of, I'm not sure I really want to.

The other thing I would like to poise for consideration is faith; so much of what we do everyday is based on faith. We believe the sun is going to rise and not burn out tomorrow, we believe our car is going to get us to work and not be in a fatal car crash, we get in an elevator and push the button to the 8th floor without even batting an eyelash that the cable might break. All these things are based on faith to some extent - but they are so everyday that we do not even think about them.

I'll try to be good and stay away for awhile now. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Life is but a manifestation of belief. Self-fulfilling prophecies, mantras, etc. They all work, test it.

The irony here is people have an illusion about true evil. For instance, one might view a religion of hate as "evil", and athiesm as "neutral". However, Hate is NOT the opposite of love, APATHY is. You see hate still has an emotion, which can be more easily turned to love. Whereas athiesm, apathy, has no emotion to change. You'd have to put the emotion BACK into them.

I wouldn't even debate with athiests. I just pity that they will never know the happy joy of connecting with their creator. I'm not a christian, no organized religion. Just spiritual, and it's kind of funny people argue that they exist.

You see if no PURPOSE exists, YOU DON'T EXIST. There has to be a PURPOSE to existence. Now, granted EVIL would want you to think there is no purpose.

Just pretend, that if there IS a good vs evil, then only EVIL would tell you there is no good vs evil.

Man can only know of something that INTERACTS with his SENSES. Man had to have SENSED a creator-force, to know of it. Aristotle PROVED this.

Science has proved this. Stephen Hawking said he was a die-hard athiest, but his EXPERIMENTS proved to him beyond a reasonable doubt, that there is a creator-force.

After all, Stephen proved big bang, which he thought would help athiests, but turns out all life started from one point and someone had to SPARK that point. He became agnostic, atleast saying there is proof for a creator, but not WHO that creator is.

Now unless you think you're smarter than the 300+ IQ genius, you can't really debate the existence of a creator.

You can debate, however, who, what, or why!

But hey, athiests are conservative. They don't want to change. It would be too difficult for their lifestyles, after all, athiesm is extremely convenient. So let's not expect any of them to be open-minded.

I'm sorry, but I can't pass this one up; I'm not an athiest, more a questioner, so I have to ask what "LIfeStyles" are you talking about?

This ought to be GOOD!

From Jordan13

"But hey, athiests are conservative. They don't want to change. It would be too difficult for their lifestyles, after all, athiesm is extremely convenient. So let's not expect any of them to be open-minded."

Pretty cheap shot, Jordan 13. Is 13 your age or IQ?

But see, you're not an athiest so you leave ROOM for some sort of spiritual world that your actions are held accountable to. (Or atleast that you go to the place for who you are, evil goes to evil, etc.)

If you are an ABSOLUTE athiest, who believes 100% there is no creator, then you would not feel OBLIGATED to do what is MORAL or RIGHT.

For instance, the columbine shooters were evolutionists who said they were merely "killing off the weak" doing evolution's job, etc.

Most athiests are more likely to see nothing wrong with homosexuality, beastiality, pedophilia, etc. Because they don't see any WRONG. Wrong supposes a MORAL compass, which Athiests DENY their own conscience.

How can an athiest call ANYTHING wrong? How can he say a child rapist is evil? He can't because Athiesm says there is no evil.

It's not a cheap shot, it's a valid understanding of the athiest mind. If there is no creator, athiests feel they are not accountable for their actions. So they can fornicate, rape children, do whatever. Since to athiests nothing is evil, since there is no creator-force. The only thing to hold them back is societal retribution FROM THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ATHIESTS.

And I'll ignore your cheap shot. I'm neither. And I don't want to intimidate you with standardized testing scores, as that takes away from legitimate discussion.

Unless you merely want to turn this into a "I have a higher IQ, so I must be right" type of discussion. Some sort of braggart competition? Please refrain from challenging the CHARACTER of others, challenge the DISCUSSION.