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No. I know that Poles go to America to work there, 99% do it illegally. I did it myself in the early 90s. I got a student visa, went to the USA, and worked illegally there.
It is against American law, so lifting the visa requirement for Poles would mean closing an eye to illegal practices. I wouldn`t advocate such a solution. It is painful but necessary. Law must be law.


It is very probable. More than 2000 Americans were killed in Iraq. About 20 Poles were killed in Iraq.

Oops, you have made a real monster of me ha ha ha ha ha. But the truth is, from all your quoted posts only the last one is mine. The rest are other guys`.

This one is of my produce:






Ooooops, I have always thought that my English is fairly understandable to people. Now you are suggesting that it is quite the opposite. But, you seem not to have gotten the message of my post. Proving the validity is not enough, you must also understand it.
Well, I will try to explain it in a simpler way.
When I said that the French problems are boring to me, I really meant it. Thus it means I have a bad/scornful/contemptuous/disdainful/biased/prejudiced attitude to France and its silly problems.
When I said I prefer American problems, I really meant it. Thus it means America is so fascinating to me that even if it has problems, it doesn`t cease to be of curious interest to me. It means I like American problems more than French ones because I like America more than France.

Do you find it wrong?

However, to be frank, I like Polish and my problems most of all.

That is why I didn`t post anything about France`s riots, although I am European.

I am really sorry. I would like to officially apologise for my stupid blunder.






Booooo! I am a bad guy! Please, will you forgive me? Boooo!

Piwo,

I don't accept your sincere and heartfelt apology for essentially diverting this thread from your comments. That my observations and questions that for the most part went ignored while others retorted to your observation and editorial is because most writers come from the USA, Poland or other places distant from France and maybe Western-Europe.
That I am concerned about the situation is because of the posibility that the riots can spread through North-Western Europe like a wildfire, because the same mixed populations live in France, Belgium, Holland and Germany. The same type of guys (Maroccan, Arab, Somalian and criminal gangs of the Duch antiles) live in the subburbs of the large Duch cities. We already had our riots a few years ago, and they can return on a larger scale with more violence and could create more devidance than there already is between the white caucasian Duch and the foreign peoples in Holland. I am very ambivalent in this situation,
because from on side I live in a more or less leftwing or liberal multi-cultural environment or social cirlce (Duch, Turkish-Kurd, Antilian,
Iranian, Half-Hungarian, Bulgarian, Gypsy, German friends) of left intelligentsia, painters, musicians, poets, photographers, video-makers
and graphic designers. Most of them vote left and radical left.
In the same time like most of the Duch society I moved from the center-left cultural middle to a more rightwing standpoint.
Like Poles and Americans on this forum I love my country, it's history,
it's culture and art, it's achievements, it's regions, it's language, and so it's various dialects and kind of people.
Like in America in the seventees there was to long a climate of "affirmative action", an official policy of tolerance, which was very affraid of discrimination of minorities, and so strict anti-discrimination laws. That went so far that it was most objectionable to be conservative,
patriotic, rightwing or nationalist. Foreigners were pampered with subsidised clubs, organisations, Mosque organisations, job possibilities,
family allowance. No-one in the seventees or eightees thought about asking these people to learn to speak the language properly or spread them over various locations (to avoid the formation of getto's), to aks them to become Duch citizens (like the American's do), because the politicans were afraid to stigmatise people, the employers simply needed cheap labour (work no Caucacian white Duch people wanted to do), and the government simply payed the social benefits and pensions of these people. Many of them became unemployed and got a Duch allowance. The Duch (left and centre-right) politicanians, administrators and bureaucrats simply forgot the Duch for a while and concentrated on the housing of foreigners, facilitating their organisations, and allowing their large families to reunite ovehere, although the fathers had no job,
and the mothers simply stayed inside.
As a result of that generations of unemployed people emerged in these neighbourhoods of our big cities, in which a huge crime rate, vandalisism, decline and poverty was existend.
The governments changed into more business oriented, pragmatic reform governments, like the centre right market oriented Unia Wolnosci
government in Poland in the ninetees. Reforms ment to cut down drastically on social security, housing projects, less subsidised groups,
and more space to private ownership, free enterprise, and self organisation of citizens (charity, Non-Governmental organisations, churches, volunteerwork and etc.).
The Duch working class and middle-class was fed up with the political correct political elite and the in their eyes weakness of a over-tolerant society and social-economical and political system, which was built
at their expense. Half way the ninetees it was hard for a white male to
find a job because foreigners, women and youngsters had priority.
They and their families got really sick of that and got their revenge, when they in 2002 after the assasination of their Populist hero Pim Fortuyn, who said that he represented the voice of the common men
agianst the arrogant political elite ("the left church" in his words), en mass voted for his party "List Pim Fortuyn" LPF, and from nothing came to 26 percent of the vote, totally minimalising the Duch labour party,
and forming a rightwing cabinet of Fortuynists, Christian-Democrats and rightwing liberals. The society had changed from a social-democratic,
left-liberal society to a rigthwing populist and conservative-liberal society. Politicians from left to right took a tougher standpoint towards foreigners and the integration or assimilation of them in our society, whci had completely failed in the previous three decades.
We recognised that we had an alien element in our society, which was strange to our national culture, and which had own rules, territory and
subcultures. in 1991 I was violently robed in Amsterdam by a North-African gang, and because of that I became xenofobe and Islamofobe. That was not accepted in my left and cultural environment.
Until today revenge thoughts go through my mind, and when I see France, I do not hope that these troubles come to Holland, because then I might take my revenge on the Maroccans. Yes, I think there are to many of them here, that Islam is a problem, and that Europe should be Christian and secular. I am agianst Turkey in the EU.
The weakness of the Western European politicians in their internal affairs and in their muliti-lateral and bilateral (French-German axes) relations whith eachother, and especially in EU context makes me sick. I have no trust in our national and European politicians (parlaimentarians), leaders and bureaucrats.
Although I am very Pro-Europe, and happy about the fact that Poland, Hungary and the Czech and Slowak republics joyned us, I am also Euro-sceptic, due to the weakness of Europe, the lack of determination,
vision, Unity, solidarity and strenght of this Union.
About France and our Western-European states which have the same problems (as I mentioned above here). Not only the foreigners are a problem here. We have a underclass in Europe of 80 million people,
unemployed, poor, low educated, illiterate, primitive people.
Next to the problem of "the foreign state" exsistance in our national state (Turkish and Arab speaking zones), we have the problem of our own undevelloped underclass of poor white neighbourhoods, in which the same problems occur as in the foreign neighbourhoods, alienation by the degeneration caused by unemployment in families for generations (grandfather, father, sun), alcoholism, broken families, drugs, violence,
crime, Hooliganism and closed neighbourhoods (the hood is the autonomous territory of its citizens, outsiders not allowed).
Frnace and Brittain have the worst problems with their Algerian and African ubnderclass in the banlies and the Pakistani and Yamaican gangs in Brighton and east-London.
But we know that what yesterday and today was France's or Englands problem is our problem tomorrow.

That's why you don't have to apologize for sidetrackingmy post Piwo.
Poles and Americans have the right not to be interested in France
or Western-Europe, which was such long time an arrogant wiseacre.
Now we have to take care of ourselves, now America is bussy with itself
and the Middle-East. America has helped Europe for one century,
and got back for it Europe's critisizm. Now Europe is not the centre of the world anymore, and we have to get used to that.
Maybe the hope of Europe lies in Central- and Eastern Europe, and less in Western-Europe, a spoiled and degenerated area.
A dam I aggree with your words of France, I am fond of the French language, culture, cuisine, country, cities, cathedrals, women, cinema,
art, music, stile, cars (Citro�n, Renault, Peugeoit, Talbot), wine, champagne, cathedrals, Mediterannee (Cannes, Nice et especiale
Montpellier) and Paris (Place 'd Italy, Quartier latin, Saint germin de Pres). And the french speaking cities of Belgium Bruxelles et Liege.
Vive la France, Vive La Pologne, Vive L'Europe, Vive L'Etas Unis.

Pieter

Pieter

ha, ha. Well, I was actually referring back to when you were discussing the Uprising, found yourself being attacked from all sides, and responded with lengthy posts. Thus, my comments.


Of course not. Everyone has their reasons for anything they do, and there are no wrong ones. Whether it's because you are uninterested in something, or hate something, neither is wrong if it�s the way one feels. The fact is, you explained very succinctly why you were uninterested in, and thus, not commenting on European riots.

I'd be a little afraid if it was any other way....



Well, now I'm being made sport of.... Of course if I didn't understand your position, you wouldn't need to apologize.


Now I'm sure I'm being made sport of. But that's OK.. It�s the new me.... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now, if I could only kiss and make up with Jaga and Nancy� <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

As for the situation in France as it spreads, while I consider myself a conservative (in the American sense, and thus an object of disdain here). I'd be the first one calling for the impeachment of GWB if he sends one policeman or soldier to France to get involved in their mess. There's no case for our security or best interest, not even a misguided or convoluted one (like the current American involvement in Iraq). I'm sure the Germans and the Russians will be forthcoming with help directly. This will be a good bonding exercise for their alliance.

As I stated in my 2nd post, social disorder is a scary business. I wish it on no legitimate government, irregardless how I feel about it, their policies, or their people.

Excuse me my jokng, I can`t resist from it. But now I am going to be serious





You wrote it before, meaning that you appreciated my explanation. So it is even more amazing to me that you carried on your discussion with Nancy and Jaga, still sticking to your early message that we intentionally pick on America.
But I explained that we didn`t pick on America, "saving" France just because it is a big shot European country.

After my first post, if I were you, I would have written something like that:
"Ooops, I am sorry, guys, I got you wrong. I thought you were picking on/critisizing the USA when you posted on American riots. Then, when France had similar problems, you refrained from criticizing it. I thought you did it because you admire/appreciate France more than the USA. But I was wrong"

Exactly! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, rude comments aside...

I heard last night that the Paris police have finally "threatened to arrest some rioters if they do not stop rioting" Helllloooo, whatever they have been doing up until now obviously is not remotely affective. Isn't arresting people what police do? That just might have some sort of affect...although given the number of people in the streets at this stage of the game it may well be a case of far too little; far too late.

Roni,

are you sure? I heard a couple of days ago that they arrested already a couple of hundreds of people. The problem is - they do not want to use army and they do not want to use any excessive force, so that in the essence there is no any dead people yet, except the one guy who died in the hospital, he was 61.

Hi Roni,

Interesting situation in this mass display of Civil Disobedience. Interesting in the magnitude of persons involved and the resulting distruction of personal and goverment property.

It is easy to sit back, and bring condemnation upon the French Police for their inaction.

But, perhaps one should look at the root cause, study for a minute, the foundation of such a movement, examine the people involved and type of violence: violence against primarly property? violence primarly against people? combination of violence against both people and property?

To formulate and place into the type of force to be applied, rather it need only to be physical and psycological, both or need it be lethal. The French commanders have all of these tools at thier disposal.

they are dealing with French citizens and valuable resources as people and then, the protection of the public as well as property. What do you do?

The rioter are primarly young people with various reasons of their own. The primary root cause of their anger is just plain discouragement with their lives in poverty. Feeling shut out of main stream society and related access to good jobs and education, their families do not have the financial resources to support their dreams of a better life and as such,a certain amount of resentment is held against their elders, for their failure.

But, this is a sociol failure that has come to head with mass violence and just shear numbers of persons envolved. How do you handle such large numbers of this magnatude? And then with minimum inflicted injuries upon the active participants, police personnel, and equipment. Just what are they (police units) to do? Sure, they cauld bring out riot vehicles, riot squads with gas projectors and lethal weapons, or, bring in the army. This is good for local civil control, but, not too effective on such a mass scale and distances apart.

Bear in mind also, the eyes of the world now are focused on France. How will this be handled? Will this spill over across our borders (frontier)and what are you going to do to insure this as not to happen? If so, you are responsible for your failures and we will chage you our cost of containment,if your problem crosses our frontier (border).

You must bear in mind that this is some incident that has only recently erupted. But a cause and effect beginning many years back. It has only just come to head sparked by one incident that lighted the fuse of action.

Interesting situation that is not the first for France,but the first on their home turf.

A feeling that is I tend to beleive is shared by the most of us is this: I dont care so much about your problems, but, I certainly am interested in how you handle them.

Charles

Jerzy,
I responded to your questions in an Email as my lengthy response will probably be too boring for the forum at large.

The address was from jsquaredjcubed... just in case your SPAM filter doesn't recognize it.