BellaOnline Forums Travel and Culture Polish Culture Re: Polish freedom of speech

Sciwriter) i read and reread the article you posted, but i could not find any relation to the original posting. The article seems to suggest that Jerzy Urban had something to do with the murder of father Popieluszko. If thats the case , ( and i have no clue if its true or not). Then i would suggest that this article did a much worse job in assination of Urban's reputation than Urban did in assainating the Popes reputation. Do you see where were going with laws like this? You can go around and around and around. In the late 60's i got dragged into a war this country got us into. it was a STUPID decision. After all that, i don't want this government to tell me what i shall read, what i should watch, and who should i listen to. That is the crux of this whole issue. I'm mature eough to make make own judgment, and i think the Poles are too.

Jaga) you seem to be dragging the gay issue with the Pope issue in so far as public ridicule is concerned. i think there's one major diference. Publicly demeaning gays can cause violence against gays. The mayor of Warsaw recently would not allow a gay march in Warsaw, because he thought it would invite violence, ( not to mention young poles being exposed to this different lifstyle, as if it would mar them for life. ) On the other hand, i highly doubt Jerzy Urban's bad taste column would incite someone to do violence against Pope. Thats the major difference. In Warsaw's last gay parade, they were pelted with eggs and rocks by skinheads, police had to cut the parade short do to the threat to violence. So you see. there is a major difference ridiculing the Pope and and ridiculing gays. The former will just make you cringe. The latter could have much worse consequence's.

Jaga) you seem to be dragging the gay issue with the Pope issue in so far as public ridicule is concerned. i think there's one major diference. Publicly demeaning gays can cause violence against gays. The mayor of Warsaw recently would not allow a gay march in Warsaw, because he thought it would invite violence, ( not to mention young poles being exposed to this different lifstyle, as if it would mar them for life. ) On the other hand, i highly doubt Jerzy Urban's bad taste column would incite someone to do violence against Pope. Thats the major difference. In Warsaw's last gay parade, they were pelted with eggs and rocks by skinheads, police had to cut the parade short do to the threat to violence. So you see. there is a major difference ridiculing the Pope and and ridiculing gays. The former will just make you cringe. The latter could have much worse consequence's.

sciwriter: use a URL and stop posting such long idiotic articles...we can look if we want and then we don't have to scroll through tons of your posted materials! THA NKS!

Perhaps we can be a little more respectful in our criticisms, especially if it is towards a person and not an expressed opinion or idea?????

Mason,

arguing that one cannot critize gays but can critize the pope because .... critique of gays would cause more violence is a bit risky.

It is like confusing consequences with the deed.

It is like saying - "you can kill people in Holland, because there is no death penalty there, but do not kill them in Texas because you would be sentenced to death".

The deeds are the same but the consequences are different :devil: :devil:

I think the difference is quite simple really.

in Poland the Catholic Church is all powerful and all pervasive.

in this context Urban's article making fun of the pope is at worst a mild irritation. he's basically sticking his tongue out at the church like a naughty schoolboy.

homosexuals are a marginalised minority against whom there is a great deal of prejudice and hatred - and not infrequently violence.

reinforcing these already existing prejudices can have a devastating effect on these people's lives.

why do you feel the need to criticise them?

why not just leave them alone?

Critisizem on the Pope and Gays should be possible,
because like politicians, pop-stars and actors they have apublic appearance with a political or cultural context.
I am not afraid of criticizm of Gays, because in my experiance (one of my best friend is one) they are very well organised, good debaters and not weak (look at the Stonewall riot on june 28 1969).
In my opinion the Gay rights movement and the feminsts were allies. In the same time the left, liberals in the USA and Social--Democrats protected Gays- and Lesbian rights in America and Europe, because they believe in equality- and freedom for all.
I do not see why we have to be so politically correct - oversensible over critisizem and satire about minorities and religious leaders. Because those patriarchal old religious leaders have such a strong image as bearded men or dressed up symbols they get cartoons, look-alikes comedy and use of their images, because they appeare in public and have influence on millions.
People who do not belong to their group (like the secular Polish-jew Jerzy Urban) have to live with the strong influence of the Catholic church in society,
so you have the right to critisize that influence and the symbol of that influence, the Pope.
Gays in my country have influence via the media (Gay talk show hosts, Gay comedians, Gay singers, Gay politician, Gay newspaper. Gay magazine and the organisation for the emancipation of Gays- and Lesbians. Will & Grace and Six Feet Under on television) and in society (Gaybars and discotheques in Arnhem and Amsterdam, and the visibility of Gays in public life). The opposition they get from foreign youth with an Islamic or non-Islamic background, Duch far right (Lonsdale) youth, reactionary politicians and orthodox leaders from various religions (Many christians, muslims and jews reject homosexuality as a sin, because it stands so in the bible, torah and koran).
Gays react negative or critical on the monotheist religions, because they feel that they are rejected as human beings. In my opinion you are entitled to think and say whatever you want in a free society, unless you propagate openly the Death of other human beings or the destruction of a group, minority or race.

In that way I am maybe more strict than the USA, where Nazi's may march openly.

Pieter

Eric, thanks. Carl

I think i sense a bit of Anti- Semitisim in some of these postings