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Joined: Sep 2004
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Parakeet
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Parakeet
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Quote:
Originally posted by sciwriter:
[qb] IMO Urban's motivation is money. Considering the Pope's contribution, publically insulting him is abuse of freedom of speech. [/qb]
if being motivated by money was a crime most people I know would be in jail. although it's kind of ironic for an ex-communist isn't it?
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

just as your comments are rather ironic for a libertarian....
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Urban has plenty of money.

what he really loves is publicity. and I'm 100% sure that he's absolutely loving the fact that his silly little article is causing such an uproar.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE WROTE IT? :rolleyes:


CO SIE POLEPSZY, TO SIE POPIEPRZY....
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carlzim Offline OP
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He may have spent most of his money, or he's a sadist. As a libertarian I disapprove of abuse of freedom of speech.

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Tiger
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Tiger
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Quote:
Originally posted by raytan:
[qb] Jaga - why is america so obsessed with gays? I just don't get it.

some people are gay.

wow.

get over it.... :rolleyes: [/qb]
Why Europe is so obsessed about guys? Maybe they should not be mentioned as the victims of Auschwitz whereas Soviets are omitted.

Raytan,

do some research - how many gays were killed in WW II?

You would not believe... not that many, majority were killed before the war was started. Yes, they were forced to wear a pink sign in Auchwitz. But.. why people, even Americans think that the only victims of Holocaust were Jews and gays? They do not even know that Poles were killed also in big numbers.

Do you think really that America is obsessed with gays and muslims? You know, the Christian family of four from Egypt was killed recently in New Jersey...probably by their muslim ... Egyptian brothers, but this did not make the news in America.
Two gays raped multiple times cruely a straight guy, less than 18, then they killed him - this barely made news as compared to one case when a gay man was killed by two straight men. You cannot even mention the fact that gays are usually sexually promiscous because you are considered a biased person.

Yes, I believe that EU is hypocritical in the way it treats gays. It gives the unreal picture of gays being on pedestal and gays martyrs as compared to other martyrs which are not even mentioned. It persecutes people, especially priests and ministers who dare to say something against gays but the journalist who uses voulgarisms towards the pope is seen as the victim of the church censorship.

As for Urban - he is a jerk and there is a difference between a freedom of speech and a babbling full of vulgarisms.

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Parakeet
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*do some research - how many gays were killed in WW II? You would not believe... not that many, majority were killed before the war was started. Yes, they were forced to wear a pink sign in Auchwitz. But.. why people, even Americans think that the only victims of Holocaust were Jews and gays? They do not even know that Poles were killed also in big numbers.

=> of course there's a great deal of ignorance about the Polish experience of WW2 and the extent to which Poles suffered under Nazi and Soviet occupation. it's something I am concerned about myself.

so what's the best way to combat that ignorance - trying to educate people about the Polish experience of WW2 and the extent to which Poles suffered under Nazi and Soviet occupation - or attacking gays?

I've no idea how many gays were killed. why do you think it's so important to know if victims of the Nazis were gay or not? do you think some victims are more important than others?


*Do you think really that America is obsessed with gays and muslims? You know, the Christian family of four from Egypt was killed recently in New Jersey...probably by their muslim ... Egyptian brothers, but this did not make the news in America.

=> too any americans are defintiely too obsessed with gays. why was gay marriage the most talked about issue in the recent election? was this really the most important issue facing america? I DON'T THINK SO....


*Two gays raped multiple times cruely a straight guy, less than 18, then they killed him - this barely made news as compared to one case when a gay man was killed by two straight men. You cannot even mention the fact that gays are usually sexually promiscous because you are considered a biased person.

=> how many tens of thousands of gruesome rapes and murders are there in the US every year?

do they all get equal coverage?

perhaps the fact that you notice some more than others is a reflection of your own prejudices, or the prejudices of the US media - or both.

why have you turned this thread into an anti-gay tirade? the issue of whether or not jerzy urban should be prosecuted for his article about the pope has nothing whatsoever to do with gays or how you feel about them. it's about freedom of speech - which is something I happen to believe in.


*Yes, I believe that EU is hypocritical in the way it treats gays. It gives the unreal picture of gays being on pedestal and gays martyrs as compared to other martyrs which are not even mentioned. It persecutes people, especially priests and ministers who dare to say something against gays but the journalist who uses voulgarisms towards the pope is seen as the victim of the church censorship.

=> this may be your perception but I don't think it has much to do with reality. you seem to have a problem with gays. personally I don't.

I also don't know what it's like to be gay - but I did once share an apartment for a while with a lesbian couple (long story!)....

it didn't change my views about gays one way or the other but it did make me aware for the first time how much their lives are affected by other people's blind prejudice. they were nice people. they had good jobs. and lovely cats. I don't see why their sexual preference should be anybody else's business.

nobody is "persecuted" for "saying something against gays" unless it amounts to hate crime - ie encouraging hatred, violence etc. and unfortunatley some people are so prejudiced against gays that prejudice and violence against them is commonplace.

urban was making fun of the pope. if his article had made fun of gays I don't think he'd have ended up in court - do you?


*As for Urban - he is a jerk and there is a difference between a freedom of speech and a babbling full of vulgarisms.

=> wrong.

unfortunately if you believe in freedom of speech there isn't. I understand why you find the article offensive. but plenty of people wouldn't find it offensive and would probably find it amusing.

nobody is forcing you to go and read articles that you must know in advance that you'll probably find offensive. that's a choice you decided to make.

yes he's a jerk so why let him bother you so much?

especially as this is EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS - the whole purpose of his article was to upset people to whom the pope and the catholic religion are important....

you can't say that you believe in freedom of speech except for people who say things you don't like.


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Parakeet
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shall we agree to disagree? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


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Tiger
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Quote:
Originally posted by raytan:
[qb] shall we agree to disagree? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [/qb]
Raytan,

we need to agree that we disagree. The homosexual crimes are hyped just like the hate crimes against blacks.

Referring to homosexuals in Auschwitz

You can see the main page of the New York newspaper:
http://www.dziennik.com/www/index.htm
http://www.dziennik.com/www/dziennik/wiad/sw.htm#1
"homosexuals mentioned before Poles?"

but from another relation - it seems that it would change. Soviets would be mentioned also as an ethnic groups and after the ethnic groups the homosexuals would be listed.

Maybe you think - this is not important - but... I cannot stand the POLITICAL CORRECTNESS which DEVIATE the reality!

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Gecko
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The Polish intelligence (I can't remember what else) had it bad. But homosexuals had it pretty bad too. Those who admitted that they were had been told they'd be set free or something of the sort, but were castrated. Homosexuals were also used in testing of Luftwaffe survival gear. They'd wear the gear and be put in extremely cold water to test the durability of the equipment. They'd also be put in chambers where they'd experience large changes in pressure. Sad stuff.


Tomek

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. -St. Paul
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Amoeba
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Amoeba
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The Pope has survived cancer, an assasins bullet, Parkinsons disease, the Church sexual abuse crisis, and probably a host of other phyisical maladies were not even aware of.If he can survive all this, then i'm sure he can survive Jerzy Urban's crazy magazine. And i do think Raytan is right that Urban's magazine will increase its circulation because of this court case.We all may think Urban is a scumbag, but he has a right to say it. I think this all stems from a now immature democracy. Over time this will probably change. Would we all want to see " Saturday Night Live " TV show thrown off the air and its producer jailed? Hope not!

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carlzim Offline OP
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Another Polish magazine should satarize Urban.

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carlzim Offline OP
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Jerzy Urban Russian agent?

www.stevepound.org.uk/2004-bookreview.html

To Kill A Priest
Book Review (2004)

It is hard to believe that a better book could be written about the brutal murder of Fr. Jerzy Popie&#322;uszko, and the way in which the national sense of horror hastened the end of the Communist regime in Poland, than that which Kevin Ruane has produced.

The author was not only there at the time but actually witnessed the process of denial, denigration and finally destruction that was the reaction of the then state government to the young priest from Okopy, near Bia&#322;ystock, who is the subject of this excellent book.

Ruane was a BBC journalist in Poland during the desperate years between the imposition of martial law and the murder of Fr. Popie&#322;uszko and he has contacts at every level of Polish life.

His access to Fr. Popie&#322;uszko�s diaries makes this the definitive book on the subject and the best piece of work since my old Solidarity with Solidarity colleague Wiktor Moszczynski wrote a major article in the East European Reporter in January 1985.

Ruane writes beautifully and with a profound knowledge of Polish politics and geography. He clearly understands the tensions that existed with the Polish Roman Catholic Church and is immensely sympathetic to Archbishop (later Cardinal) Glemp who was the subject of some criticism twenty two years ago for a perception that he sought an accommodation between Catholic Church and atheistic State.

If I have a criticism of Ruane it is that he seems sometimes almost too sympathetic to many of the men of 1984.

In the case of Prime Minister and Defence Minister General Jaruzelski and General Kiszczak it can be appreciated that they were torn between a pragmatic recognition of the growing strength of the Church and the Solidarity movement in the early 1980s and the pressure from Moscow and shadowy organisations such as the Anti-Solidarity Organisation (OAS).

Ruane rightly chooses not to rush to total condemnation and history will probably support his viewpoint but it is almost impossible for anyone, even as peripherally involved as I was, to understand his sympathy fro the then official Government spokesman, Jerzy Urban.

Urban is now the millionaire publisher of a pornographic anticlerical magazine called �Nie� (Polish for No) and continues his diatribes against the Church as if he was still being paid by Premier Andropov.

In the months leading up to the murder of Fr. Popie&#322;uszko articles by Jerzy Urban appeared in publications such as Tu I Teraz (Here and Now) under pen names such as Jan Rem and � in the opinion of many contemporary readers � contributed to the hysteria of the attacks on the young Priest.

Ruane�s opinion must be respected but he does seem to be almost too forgiving of this sinister and conspiratorial figure.

It is a measure of the quality of Ruane�s work that this is one of the few areas in which one can cavil.

The story he tells is one of breathless intensity but never less than scrupulously accurate and makes use of the widest range of sources.

From the city stopping funeral of the eighteen year old schoolboy, Grzegorz Przemyk in May 1983 to the murder of Fr. Popie&#322;uszko in the autumn of the following year Ruane describes a nation in turmoil and an ever more desperate government facing a population growing in confidence and knowledge of their strength.

Fr. Popie&#322;uszko had become an increasingly influential critic of the Communist regime since the imposition of martial law in December 1981 but it was his presence at the funeral of the schoolboy that gave him a national, and international, prominence.

His regular Masses for the Homeland began to attract vast crowds and he became the �Solidarity Priest� in the eyes of the state apparatus and the predominantly Catholic people of Poland.

Just as Ireland became effectively ungovernable in the first decade of the 20th. Century so Polish demands for free trades unions and freedom of religious worship challenged the state in a battle that only one could win.

The attacks on Fr. Popie&#322;uszko began with smears and proceeded to random arrests, harassment and the planting of forbidden materials in his room.

None of these diminished the hold that the priest had on the people and middle ranking officers of the security forces looked to a more drastic solution.

Why a thirty-six year old priest who suffered chronic illness throughout his life should become a target for the state can only be understood in the context of Poland under martial law and in the light of the extraordinary passion with which Fr. Popie&#322;uszko spoke to the Polish nation.

He was finally murdered on a lonely road north of Warsaw by three Special Branch officers who beat him with a sand filled sock and wood wrapped in rags. A sack of rocks was tied to his leg and he was thrown off a bridge into the Vistula near Torun.

The crudity and brutality of the murder typified the inchoate fury of the state and its inability to reduce the power of the voice of Popie&#322;uszko.

In the short term they succeeded. In the long they failed.

Fr. Popie&#322;uszko is remembered today as one who hastened the end of Communism and paid with his life.

Kevin Ruane�s enthralling book is a fitting testament and essential reading for any student of the period or for anyone with an interest in the fall of Communism and the strength of the individual.

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