BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Spirituality Christian Heaven and Pagans

See, the thing is that you all are trying to think of God and think like God on a human level and that is impossible to do because God certainly is not human.

His brilliance, His glory, His being is just too much for us to fathom. You cannot think about Him or what He will do on a human level or as a human being with human feelings.

The entire Bible speaks about God. The Trinity is mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis, The letters that make up the Great Book were written by different men from different walks of life on three different continents over hundreds of years a part.

No one man knew what the other was writing and no one man knew that these letters would come together in a book.

Jesus spoke about God, Moses and Abraham. Shadrach, Meshach and Abendego knew Jesus in a fiery furnace.

Daniel knew him in a lion's den and Jonah knew Him in a whale.

There is no contradiction in the Bible about the way to get to Heaven and what will happen if you do not go to Heaven.

The Chinese written language was developed a thousand years before the bible was written and a lot of the characters represent things biblical like the flood, big boats etc...

You can make all of the jokes that ytou want to, you can say you are going to join the Godess in Summerland, or live inside of a tree with magic little faeries, but it aint going to happen. The Bible and Jesus were and are very clear on this.

When I say I feel sorry for you it is because of your destination after we leave this earth. It's not because you are happy now and living a relatively care free life. I am the same way.

I am very happy where I am in life. I am so very happy that Jesus is in my life and I am even more excited about where I am going after we leave this earth.

Don't think that we are not moving toward a One World Nation or a New World Order because we certainly are.

If we evolved from sludge or monkeys, how come we stopped evolving as the human form that we are today? How perfect was the big bang that it created earth in the very exact spot that it sustains life and no other planet does?

The number seven is mentioned over and over in the bible as the perfect number. We have seven days in a week, there are seven seals that are going to be opened, seven angels will hold seven bowls that will pour out destruction on the earth. A great beast will have seven heads... why is the number of the beast 666? Because that is as close to seven as it can get. There are seven continents and seven churches are spoken of in the Book of Revelations. What a coincidence, huh?

How perfect that we have just enough sun light and just enough moon to sustain life on this planet and all of this because of an explosion, right? Wrong.

Now, I am not trying to threaten you with the choice of either Heaven or Hell, I am trying to lovingly warn you about your choice. I am trying to tell you the Good News about Jesus so you all can take it for what it's worth.

If you will still want to follow false gods and false prophets, (which are mentioned in the bible as well) then that is ultimately your choice.

Linda, you have a unique way of skirting around questions you are asked or answers you receive. Freebubbles asked you a question and you answered it with another question. You asked me if Jesus ever spoke about God and Moses and I gave you a set of verses from one chapter where He spoke about them both. Do you think it was an accident that you asked me that and I found the answer to both in one chapter in three consecutive verses?

God led me to that chapter and I wrote what He said about it.

Jesus spoke of love but He also spoke of Hell.

Take that for what it's worth too.

Vance.. What you don't seem to understand is that I am not going to see your God or Satan, because I am not going to either heaven or hell.. I don't have to make any choices about either because they are not something that I believe exists.

But, if they did..I would choose hell of course. No doubt about that. I would choose hell because that is where my entire family is going according to you.. and that is where some of the greatest spiritual beings who ever walked this earth reside.. according to you. I wouldn't know anyone in heaven, nor would I care to know anyone in heaven.

You did not produce what I asked for.. you produced a quote from John (in red, of course), and not a quote from Jesus himself.. you have yet to do so.

We have not stopped evolving.. we are bigger, stronger and healthier than any time before in history, and we are evolving as a species every day.

There are other gospels and texts about the times of Jesus and Jesus himself that contradict a whole lot of what is written in the bible.. just because Christians do not recognize them as valid information.. does not mean that they are not equally descriptive of who and what Jesus was. Ignoring them does not make them go away.

As far as seven days of the week.. well, I find it interesting that it was a Roman idea.. and that they are all named after Roman Gods and Goddesses.

Yes, the earth is an amazing thing. It is perfectly balanced and sustains life.. and creation stories abound about the how and why of that.. The bible is one of literally hundreds of thousands of those stories.

My faith is Summerland and the Goddess is just as strong as yours is about your heaven and your God. It is not a joke to me.. it is a reality. My faith is as strong as yours.. the difference is I am not trying to change your faith if it makes you happy.

No Vance, you don't have to issue any warnings my way. I rest assured that neither my loves ones or I will end up in an eternity of misery.. no matter how very much you would like to see that happen.

You see, I don't believe in your God, and I see Jesus as a very human teacher. So, when you insist on telling me that my soul is doomed to eternal misery, all I see is a man, who in his ego and righteousness, is intent on dooming more than half of the world to an afterlife of eternal misery. I see and hear YOU Vance, noone else.

Love and Light..

Vance,

I reread the above post, and I don't mean to say that you are wrong in believing as you do.. I have never said that, nor will I. The only problem I have is when you insist that your belief is the only correct belief for me and those I love also.

If I arrived at your home and threatened your family with bodily harm.. would you defend yourself.. or would you just submit to my threats because my belief told me it was alright to harm others? In fact, it was my duty to harm others.

What you are doing to me is the same thing. On this computer screen you are entering my home and threatening my entire family with not just bodily harm.. but ETERNAL suffering and misery. And, you think that I should submit to these threats because it is your belief and you feel it is your duty to tell me that is where I am going.

Eternal suffering and misery lasts for a very, very long time. And for what? Being a good person, respecting the earth, and living a life of service to others? And this misery is going to be inflicted upon me because I don't believe in a certain deity or read a certain book. hmmmmmmmm.

No one can know for certain the fate of anyone else's soul. What if you are wrong Vance. What if there is no God, no Jesus, no heaven and no hell? And, what if you have spend a lifetime condemning others to eternal misery when no such misery exists?

I would rather spend my life enjoying life. I would rather spend my life learning about all religions and beliefs and doing the best I can to not harm the earth or anyone else in the process.

I don't have a problem with your belief Vance.. but I do have a problem with your condescending attitude about everyone elses faith.

Love and Light..

Hello there.

I've been watching this thread for a while. I just wanted to comment on this discussion. Firstly, I am an atheist -- by extension, I do not believe in a heaven or hell. I am accepting of other religions and beliefs, I just choose not to profess faith in them. Overall, I have enjoyed this thread.

What gets to me is what Linda said about Vance:



That is what I have noticed from many "Christians". Vance's attitude (it's my God's way or the highway to eternal damnation) is symptomatic of the religious (more specifically, Christian) intolerance that I have experienced in my lifetime.

I get along with others. The problem occurs when others cop an attitude with respect to matters where they really, truly do not know what will happen (ie what happens after we die).

I do not want to start a religious war here. That is not my intention. I just wanted to state that I am on Linda's side of this discussion.

I am not saying that it is my way and I am not trying to threaten anyone, purposefully anyway, and it isn't just my belief, it is the belief of every bible believing Christian. We didn't make it up, it is written in the Book.

Let me answer your question with a question, Linda. What if I am right?

Sure, it is easy for you to be condescending now about willing to go to hell instead of going to Heaven because it something you simply cannot fathom happening right now. I have had friends say "I can't wait to go to hell and start drinking beer with Jimmy Hendrix" or "I can't wait to go to hell because I am tired of winters anyway." or "I can't go to Hell because Satan is afraid I will take over."

I didn't mean to start a religious war either. I was just responding to posts and the posts kept getting deeper as did I.

I know I am not going to change your mind. You want to believe in a no God existence, or goddesses or faeries or whatever then that is your choice. Just remember this choice on the Day of Judgment (if there is one, of course. Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone by saying there is a day of Judgment coming.)

And as far as copping an attitude by not really know what is going to happen, I do know what is going to happen because it is what Jesus talked about.

You talk about how you respect Jesus as a great story teller and teacher, yet when it comes to Him talking about accepting Him to get into Heaven, you don't believe that. Why is that?

No, don't even answer that because I don't want to have to respond anymore to this post because apparently my answers to your questions are not what you really want to hear.

I will leave you with this though. Deep down inside of you, you know there is at least a monicum of truth that I am speaking or you wouldn't be getting so offended by it. You are getting offended and not just laughing it off.

That is all I have to say in this forum topic anymore. I am not trying to battle you, just have a hearty discussion and answer your questions. When I answer your questions, suddenly I am copping an attitude or bringing a bad name to Christians so I am done.

Read the Book. It is all in there.

Ok Vance let me put it this way,
Lets say I am A GOOD Nazarine Christian and I tell you a NonDenomiational Christian that you are going to hell because you believe once saved always saved or you dont believe in Total Sacntafacation (sp? sorry I cant spell the word!)... Anyways

I tell you that you are going to hell if you dont get Sanctified and you have to get resaved EVERY time you Sin Or you go to hell because God cant look upon Sinners and Jesus Died for our sins but we have to ask to be saved from every sin...

now lets say your whole family is Baptist and they have always believed once saved always saved.

Now not only am I telling you your going to hell but I am also telling you that your WHOLE FAMILY is going there too.

Wound you not see this as a threat and take it to heart? Would you not think and read and stand up for your family your self and your believes and react much the same way Linda has?

Of Course you would!!! its a no brainer! but as the non denomenational- baptist you would try to convert me from my wicked ways and away from the harmful cult! Right?

You dont see the denomenational wars like you once did but it still happens prodestents try to convert the Catholic and the Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons (LDS?)all the time here... They believe in the bible too so why are they going to hell? because they dont give tith to and go to the church you do?

ok here is what I think If Linda (yes I am picking on you because your handy! hope you dont mind!) was in a religion be it christian, prodestent or catholic mormon or Pagan or Buddah or whatever... and her ah "church" was hurting her or her kids in a very physical, emotional or mental way and her was afraid to change because that was all she had known then I would step in and tell her about what I believe and how it helps me and why I believe what i do if she wants to know more then I invite her to church or even a bible study with my family and a few friends... and I let God convert save or what ever if and when Linda ask me how she can get saved then I would tell her but Hell does not enter in to the mix. if Fear is the reason she is in the other religion then why would she want to convert into another religion of fear. all hell does is spread fear and hate among people!!

Why do Chirstians think Hell has any part of the GOOD NEWS? to me this debate is saying loud and clear Our God sends everyone to Hell if your not perfect! Hell is more powerful then my God. then you turn around and say God loves you? No wonder people think we are walking contradictions!!!

Linda is perfectly happy believeing the way she does so who am I to tell her Gods gonna make her go to hell? Am I God? Did God give me that power to send her there? Do I Want her to Go there?
NO!!!!!!!!!

Is God powerful enough to look past what she believes or dont believe? Can I Live with myself if I let her make her own choices? Can God Save her in His own way and Time with his own Pwoer and Love? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vance you say that everyone has a small human view and we should not try to think like God with our human limitations. so I say the same to you STOP putting GOD into a BOX and giveing orders!!! you cant save everyone and nor should you try! God is in control and he is a GREAT BIG GOD who Will do whatever HE wants when and how he wants!

I understand where you are coming from because I use to be like you! I would try to control everything so my world would be perfect and God would Love me and save me from the fires in hell!
the thing was I was killing myself and alinating others to the point they did not want the see hear or think about God or me. Not because they did not want to love God or that God was Bad but because I was sending them to hell along with there kids and family.... so I realy do understand, but pick your battles!!
Linda is not your enemy and aside from the belief differences she is much like you and you could be good friends if you laid the war aside and lessioned to each other! Take the Good and left the rest....

Linda, Vance, Freebubbles and everyone else....
In all of these discussions, we seem to have gotten off onto platforms of "whose side is right". There are alot of interesting things here that we can discuss but we don't need to stop liking each other because of it, right?

Freebubbles, you made alot of good points. I appreciate the way that you have tried to break it down into simple steps. I have said before that I believe a whole bunch of things, parts of many different "religions", but the one thing that you said Freebubbles was, isn't our God smart enough to figure out exactly what we mean. I agree.

Each of us believes in a higher power, as I have said before but we all have different interpretations (and yes, even names) for what we believe. I REALLY do think God understands all of this and can sort everything out. He is an awesome God. In my opinion, we should NEVER argue about who or what we believe. Simply stated, we can then proceed to discuss some of the interesting differences, like the number 6 or 7.

Christians are ONLY called upon to SHARE the Good News, not PREACH it or beat it into the ground. When Jesus went into a town to talk to people, if they were not interested, He left their home and went on to another town. He felt it was more important to spend his time telling the Good News to people who WANTED TO HEAR it. The disciples were baffled and surprised at Jesus' behavior to just leave the people and town. Jesus explained to them that there were too many places to spread the Good News that it was wasteful to try and convince people who were not interested. He knew this was a problem, even in HIS time, but that is HOW JESUS HANDLED IT!

Unfortunately, some Christians do not fully understand what Jesus was trying to say in those scriptures, and then other people get put off and make nasty remarks about ALL CHRISTIANS. One of the things that sometimes keeps me from posting when 2 sides start to get so intense, is that it really bothers me to hear people start to say ALL CHRISTIANS or that is why they don't like Christians because ALL CHRISTIANS....

To each their own, right? That's how it SHOULD BE. I always used to say to my father, "Different strokes for different folks". Religion and politics are 2 of the toughest topics to discuss with others where it seems difficult to remain calm, friendly and intelligent. None of us knows for sure what will happen, but we each have our own belief and theory. If that makes us happy, then we are lucky. As long as we EACH have had at least ONE opportunity to have heard the GOOD NEWS, then that is ALL any of us can expect or need!

My wish is that peace, love, and light shall shine upon all of us and we shall all receive God's blessings! Now, can we just GET ALONG and be friends?

Trish

First of all, I know I am not going to hell if I do not get sanctified every time I sin because you can only be saved once and that is all you need. I know I am not perfect and I know I sin everyday just for the fact that I am a smoker and I am polluting "His Temple".

I am in no way putting God into a box. I know God can and will do what He will, but we as Christians are supposed to spread the gospel to people. It is what He wants us to do. Plus, if He didn't want us talking about hell, then Jesus would not have spoke about it so much and the Book of Revelations would not be in the Bible.

Have you even read that book? That is scarier than anything I can tell you. How many times in that Book does God say:

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into the lake of fire that I have created for the Devil and his angels."

How many times has He said: "You don't know my Son, so I don't know you."

I am not ordering anyone to do anything. I am trying to warn them what is going to happen.You should be too, as a Christian. It is up to them to make the ultimate choice.

It's simple. If you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, you will pay the consequences. He is giving us a choice to make. IT IS NOT MY RULES OR MY GAME!! IT IS HIS!!

I don't see what is so hard to understand here. Going to hell is all over the bible. If you do not believe in the Bible or Jesus Christ then I can understand why you won't understand it coming from me. I have done my part. I talked about Jesus, His love and the consequences for not accepting His love.

I also know I will not be standing before the Throne of Judgment with God asking me, "Why didn't you tell this person about me?"

I don't know why I am being attacked on here either. I didn't start this thread, all I did was answer posts and then I get jumped on because I spoke about Hell.

Freebubbles, do you believe in Hell? Do you believe people will go there if they do not accept Jesus as their personal savior?
Can you honestly sit there, as a Christian, and tell Linda that she doesn't have to worry about going to Hell if she stays on the path that she is?

Can you show me one verse in the Bible, just one, where it says you can go to Heaven without knowing Jesus?

Show me one verse where it says kindness and good works is the key to Heaven.

Just one verse. Surely, you can do that if people don't have to be worried about going to hell.

I can get along just fine! Lets be Friends!!!!:D So enought after life what about now? We all SAY we want Peace and Harmany but how can we bring it about? I dont mean How to make Goverment Laws and all that I mean like how can we get along with others who are not from our culture religion or background? how do we play nice with the neibghers and coworkers or even people in the stores?

When I was little I NEVER met a stranger! I said Hi and talk to everyone like they were part of my family. I remember driving down the road (ok my mom driveing not me)and every one waved and we waved and everyone talked to everyone and now people put there head down and dont make eye contact with anyone and kids are not aloud to talk to everyone... use to kids played in the parks and you saw kids walking in groups
what happened?
How do we get that back safely?

The point is.. none of us are right and none of us are wrong when we are discussing our beliefs. All of us come from different pathways and different belief systems.

I am sure all of can agree that it is very possible that:

Vance will go to heaven and be with Jesus and God.
Freebubbles will go to heaven and be with Jesus and God also.
Jase will go to his version of heaven.

The Atheists among us will go into the soil to be reborn as plant life.

Linda will go to Summerland and be with her Goddess.

The Muslims among us will go to Allah.

etc, etc, etc.

Everyone of these afterlife beliefs is a possibility, and none are a fact.

I would like to think that all of us will get what it is that we wish for as an afterlife experience, and I have no reason to doubt that this will happen.

Vance, you cite several cases that Christians went to heaven or even hell and came back to talk about it.

I died also. I was clinically dead. And, I went somewhere also.. and I can tell you this with certainty. The presence I encountered there was not about judgment... there was only an intense love that I don't believe we are capable of here on earth. And, whatever it was that I felt did not care a bit if I was a Christian, Jew or Pagan.

I have no fear of your God Vance.. because to me he simply does not exist. You can fear him if you like because he is a part of your belief. But, I will never stand before him. Nor, will I ever be judged by him.

I might also mention to you that the Goddess has always been a part of the Jewish belief system.. thus she is also a part of yours if you adhere to the Bible. She is seen as Sophia, Shekinah, and Wisdom.

The Goddess is the gentler side of the Creator. Christianity tends to leave this aspect of God out of the whole equation. God is definately seen as masculine.

My belief systems honors both the Earth God and the Earth Goddess as aspects of a greater power.. an unknown Creator. But, in my belief system, the Goddess plays a greater role than the God, simply because she also exists as the earth we live upon. But, the God is seen in the Sun, a source of heat and light we could not live without. Hence, the two are interdependent upon one another.

And, above all is the unknown Creator.. Actually Jesus and Judas discuss this in the Gospel of Judas.

Male and female .. we created them in our image.. note the WE that is present in Genesis II. What a boring world it would be if we were indeed all created in the image of God. And, if God is male..how does that account for the design of Eve? Where did he get an idea like that..lol.

Whatever we believe, whoever we believe in.. and wherever we are going.. the fact remains that we are all human. And, that is the one thing.. in spite of everything else that we share in common.

So Vance.. believe as you will with my blessings.. I won't ever believe it.. I don't have that kind of fear of the unknown. I have been "warned" lol, and I choose to believe that your warning does not apply to me in any way at all.

Love and Light..