BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Catholicism If a Faith is not "True" it is "False" - debate

If a person in Mortal Sin goes to Hell - how does a non-Catholic get out of Mortal Sin? (don't forget that to purposely miss Mass is a Mortal Sin in-itself - so EVERY non-Catholic is in Mortal Sin). And they have no Sacrament of Confession to get out of Mortal Sin.

Pertaining to these statements:
"22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free."
"[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.... [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit....
41. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.

How does a non-Catholic find salvation outside of Her?

Thanks,
-CzarinaOz-

I am not going to allow this thread to become heated and get out of control, but I certainly want to clarify exactly what the Church teaches on this matter.

The dogma "extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is often misunderstood - it does not mean that non-Catholics cannot be saved.

And I will quote Fr. Ray Ryland in his article "No Salvation Outside the Church," (from the Catholic Answers website) to clarify:

No Salvation Outside the Church
By Fr. Ray Ryland

Why does the Catholic Church teach that there is "no salvation outside the Church"? Doesn�t this contradict Scripture? God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6). Peter proclaimed to the Sanhedrin, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn�t the Church�s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God�s redemption? Does the Church mean�as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe�that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved?

That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church�s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God�s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.

In correcting Fr. Feeney in 1949, the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) issued a document entitled Suprema Haec Sacra, which stated that " extra ecclesiam, nulla salus" (outside the Church, no salvation) is "an infallible statement." But, it added, "this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church itself understands it."

Note that word dogma. This teaching has been proclaimed by, among others, Pope Pelagius in 585, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1214, Pope Innocent III in 1214, Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, Pope Pius XII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, Pope John Paul II, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Dominus Iesus.

Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings.

Click here to read the full article.

Many Catholics are unaware of the battle going on within the ranks of Catholicism concerning salvation, justification and membership in the Church. Watch EWTN and compare what those priests teach as opposed to what your local parish priest is teaching. For example, has your priest ever warned you that you may go to hell? Most Catholics have never been told that fact at any time (post-Vatican II, that is). Have you ever heard your parish priest condemn contraception? Many Catholics use contraception. Many live in sin in their relationships. Most Catholics NEVER go to confession. We are living in that period of time described in the Third part of the Fatima Secret where there is a "Crisis of Faith". Faithful Catholics are convinced that the Great Chastisement is near. I believe we are on the brink of that event.

The liberals, or neo-Protestants, make claims such as was produced above by Fr. Ray Ryland. Not only is he so obviously a liberal, heretic, etc., but why he is all of that is evidenced by his obvious double-speak. What he is saying is that when the Church teaches "There is no salvation outside the Church" She means there IS salvation outside the Church.

Let's apply his insane erroneous principle to other aspects of Catholicism.

The Church condems abortion, therefore abortion is not wrong.
The Church condemns homosexuality, therefore it condones it as a lifestyle.
The Church says when we are in mortal sin we become enemies of God, therefore when we sin grievously, He loves us the most.

Get the point? Fr. Ryland quotes a Church teaching then categorically denies it and claims this is the mind of the Church. He is a professed liberal/modernist. The true and faithful Catholic priest does not lie about Church teaching nor feel embarassed by the truth behind it. Fr. Ryland would like to believe that everyone gets a free pass to Heaven. Jesus taught us the way to salvation is a narrow gate, and that the road to damnation is wide. Few pass through the narrow gate, and obviously, most take the wide road. This means most go to hell.

I seriously question Fr. Ryland's credentials. Did you say he was ROMAN Catholic? Just want to be sure here.

The prophet Isais said that those who are saved are as numerous as the grapes left on the vine after the pickers have been through. St. Louis Marie DeMontfort said that if you knew the number of the elect, you would shrink away in grief.

There is no place anywhere in the New Testament or in any writings of any saint that would indicate one could be saved outside of membership in the true religion. St. Theresa of Avila said: "Hell is where Lutherans go." St. Pius X taught that the majority of souls who are in hell are there because of ignorance of the things needed to be known in order to be saved (Acerbo Nimis).
Now that is a scary quote. St. Francis Xavier told the Japanese that all their ancestors were in hell. Fr. Klyber (recently deceased) of the Remnant of Israel, a convert himself, reprimanded Catholics for telling unconverted Jews that they should stay Jews. He said that attitude would condemn the Jews to hell and we have no right to deny them salvation.

For every quote from a Fr. Ryland-type claiming universal salvation, I could produce 10,000 quotes proving that one can only be saved as a Baptized Catholic. I challenge Fr. Ryland to find ONE saint who would agree with him. I challenge anyone here to find even ONE quote from any Saint at any time claiming that "Outside the Church..." means what Fr. Ryland teaches.

I NOW AWAIT THAT QUOTE. I will comment no further until my friends here produce that quote.

P.S. I have never met the Fr. Feeney you are talking about, but if he defended "No Salvation" I can see why they attacked him. I guess his position is not very "Ecumenical."

First, let me say I wish I could still watch EWTN. I used to, years ago, when we had it in our cable lineup. Unfortunately our cable company only makes it available now in their digital package, which is out of our budget.

Fr. Ryland is a convert to Catholicism, he received his doctorate in religious studies at Marquette University, and from the Catholic Answers website I'll quote:

Fr. Ryland is an adjunct professor of theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville and serves as chaplain of the Coming Home Network and of Catholics United for the Faith. He is a contributing editor of This Rock magazine and an assistant pastor at St. Peter's Church in Steubenville, Ohio.

He is not claiming that everyone gets a free pass to Heaven. He is explaining the dogma "No Salvation Outside the Church," as the Catholic Church teaches it. There is much more to the article I posted the beginning to than I posted. I'm sure I'd be violating copyright laws if I posted the whole article, so that's why I provided a link in my above post.

I will post a couple more quotes from this article before moving on:

The key elements of revelation that together undergird extra ecclesiam, nulla salus are these: (1) Jesus Christ is the universal Savior. (2) He has constituted his Church as his mystical body on earth through which he dispenses salvation to the world. (3) He always works through it�though in countless instances outside its visible boundaries. Recall John Paul�s words about the Church quoted above: "Her activity is not limited only to those who accept its message."

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that.

And he quotes from the New Testament:

Jesus told his followers, [color:#660000]"I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:15�17). The word translated as "tend" (poimaine) means "to direct" or "to superintend"�in other words, "to govern." So although there are sheep that are not of Christ�s fold, it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.[/color]

He concludes with:

The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."


The Catechism of the Catholic Church also makes it clears that "No Salvation Outside the Church," does not mean only Catholics can be saved.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

The quotes from the Catechism came from the Vatican's website:
[url=BellaOnline ALERT: For anti-spam reasons, we restrict the number of URLs allowed in a given post. You have exceeded our maximum number of URLs.

No, every non-Catholic is not in Mortal Sin. I will quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to explain:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

Therefore, a non-Catholic would have to believe what the Catholic Church teaches (and thus believe missing Mass was wrong) but refuse to submit to her authority in order to be in mortal sin for missing Mass.

There are a few problems with your post Melissa, one of which is that Fathers Ryland and Most are not Saints.

"I challenge anyone here to find even ONE quote from any Saint at any time claiming that "Outside the Church..." means what Fr. Ryland teaches."

Actually my post did include a couple quotes from the Church Fathers, whom are definitely Saints. I also included a link to Fr. Most's article on EWTN and that article has a lot of quotes from both the Church Fathers and the Magisterium (for those who might not know, the Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Roman Catholic Church). But I shall quote some more...

St. Gregory of Nazianzus, <Oration> 18.5 [at funeral of his father, a
convert]:(c. 374 AD): "[color:#660000]He was ours even before he was of our fold.
His way of living made him such. For just as many of ours are not
with us, whose life makes them other from our body [the Church], so
many of those outside belong to us, who by their way of life
anticipate the faith and need [only] the name, having the reality."
[/color]

St. Ambrose, <On Cain and Abel> 2.3.11:(after 375 AD): "Our price is
the blood of Christ... . Therefore He brought the means of health to
all so that whoever perishes, must ascribe the cause of his death to
himself, for he was unwilling to be cured when he had a remedy... .
[color:#660000]For the mercy of Christ is clearly proclaimed on all."[/color]

From Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica
(found on http://www.sacred-texts.com)

Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?

Objection 1: It seems that no man can be saved without Baptism. For our Lord said (Jn. 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But those alone are saved who enter God's kingdom. Therefore none can be saved without Baptism, by which a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost.

Objection 2: Further, in the book De Eccl. Dogm. xli, it is written: "We believe that no catechumen, though he die in his good works, will have eternal life, except he suffer martyrdom, which contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism." But if it were possible for anyone to be saved without Baptism, this would be the case specially with catechumens who are credited with good works, for they seem to have the "faith that worketh by charity" (Gal. 5:6). Therefore it seems that none can be saved without Baptism.

Objection 3: Further, as stated above (A[1]; Q[65], A[4]), the sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation. Now that is necessary "without which something cannot be" (Metaph. v). Therefore it seems that none can obtain salvation without Baptism.

On the contrary, [color:#000099]Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.

I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

Reply to Objection 1: As it is written (1 Kings 16:7), "man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart." Now a man who desires to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" by Baptism, is regenerated in heart though not in body. thus the Apostle says (Rom. 2:29) that "the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God."

Reply to Objection 2: No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason is it stated that martyrdom "contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism," i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment. Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be without "faith that worketh by charity"), such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" as is stated 1 Cor. 3:15.

Reply to Objection 3: The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Ena
rr. in Ps. 57).[/color]

Clearly one does not have to be formally baptized in the Catholic Church to be saved. That is what Fr. Feeney taught and why he was excommunicated!

In my previous post, in addition to the Church Fathers, I quoted text from the Vatican website - CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH - (can't get much higher and more official than the Vatican!), The Catechism of the Catholic Church (which is the guide to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and believes), Pope John Paul II (while he's not a canonized Saint yet, I'm sure it's only a matter of time), and even the Bible. All these official and reliable sources prove that "No Salvation Outside the Church," does not mean only Catholics are saved. It means the Church is the "universal sacrament of salvation," and to quote from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith again, "For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, �salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."


Peace in Christ,

Melissa, thank you so much for your posts.

Unfortunately, your saintly quotes do not answer my challenge. This was my challenge:

"I challenge anyone here to find even ONE quote from any Saint at any time claiming that "Outside the Church..." means what Fr. Ryland teaches."

Fr. Ryland states:

"Our point is this: When the Church infallibly teaches extra ecclesiam, nulla salus, it does not say that non-Catholics cannot be saved. In fact, it affirms the contrary. The purpose of the teaching is to tell us how Jesus Christ makes salvation available to all human beings."

You cannot find this analysis ANYWHERE in Church teaching. This is a novelty of Fr. Ryland. Have you ever seen this in the Catechism? He is saying the Church teaches one thing but means another. Try applying this technique to everything the Church teaches.

So now that I have been extremely specific, I need to know where St. Thomas, or any other Saint, has ever said anything like what Fr. Ryland says here. He says the Church means there IS salvation outside the Church when She states there is NO salvation outside the Church. Would you not agree that this is double-speak to-the-max?

This is tantamount to saying that global warming causes the extreme cold everyone is now experiencing.

So I ask: Why would the Church ever say that there is no salvation outside the Church if there is salvation outside the Church?

"You cannot find this analysis ANYWHERE in Church teaching."

So... the church doesn't teach from the BIBLE? Hm. The Catholicism I grew up in did. And the Bible DOES say: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

So.... Is the church wrong? Or is the Bible wrong?

Just curious.