BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Catholicism If a Faith is not "True" it is "False" - debate

You're very welcome, Angie.

Since Fr. Ryland teaches what the Church teaches on this dogma, yes my quotes do answer your challenge.



No, he is not saying the Church teaches one thing but means another. He is explaining the dogma of "Outside the Church , No Salvation," as the Church understands it and teaches it.

As I quoted above, his article goes on to explain further: (His article also includes quotes from the Catechism and the Bible. Read his full article here: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp)

The key elements of revelation that together undergird extra ecclesiam, nulla salus are these: (1) Jesus Christ is the universal Savior. (2) He has constituted his Church as his mystical body on earth through which he dispenses salvation to the world. (3) He always works through it�though in countless instances outside its visible boundaries.

And concludes with:

The Catholic Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time" (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, "though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat." And when they eat of it, "without knowing it or willing it" they are "incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church."

And that is most definitely in line with what the Catechism says and what the Church teaches.

I will quote, yet again, my conclusion from my previous post to tie this together:

"No Salvation Outside the Church," does not mean only Catholics are saved. It means the Church is the "universal sacrament of salvation," and to quote from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith again, "For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, �salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."

This is exactly what Fr. Ryland teaches, so he is most definitely teaching the proper meaning of how the Church interprets and understands this dogma.

You are so very right, SisterDino.

The Church most definitely teaches from the Bible! (As well as Apostolic Tradition.)

Well I hope you all had a holy Christmas Day, and enjoy the rest of the season.

**The majority of this post was deleted for violation of Forum Guidelines and Rules. Personal Attacks are NOT permitted on these forums.**

To remind my fellow Catholics of their faith I have posted the Athanasian Creed below:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Forgive my ingnorents but... I didnt think Catholics believed in getting saved? I learn something new everyday! I have enjoyed reading this thread! If I may ask what beliefs do you hold CzarinaOz? I just want to know because it is easier for me to follow your line of thought if I know where you are coming from.

I am confused are you saying you cant go to heaven if your not catholic but there is always a chance that a non catholic will become catholic and there for be saved and go to heaven? or are you saying non catholics can be saved and go to heaven even if they never become a member of the catholic church?

I was told that when the Bible or other earily church writing said Catholic church they ment the universal church as in the body of Christ or every person that believes in Jesus Christ. is this not right?

Mystic Sophia,

I was indicating what the Catholic Church has always taught concerning who can be saved. But this part of your assessment is correct:

"...are you saying you cant go to heaven if your not catholic but there is always a chance that a non catholic will become catholic and there for be saved and go to heaven?"

This is Catholic teaching, and yes, it is what I was saying. When Catholics talk about being saved, they are referring to the results of final perseverance. In other words, as St. Paul states: "...pray for me that I do not become a castaway." Being saved to a Catholic means you died and went to heaven - you fought the good fight as St. Paul relates. If you are "saved" just by accepting Jesus, then why should we fight the good fight if we have already won?

Being saved to a non-Catholic means once you have received the grace of Christ and conversion you cannot lose it - you cannot be damned. Of course that perception is contradicted by St. Paul and Jesus: "On that day many will come saying Lord, Lord... but that they will be cast into the eternal fire..." Jesus and St. Paul both taught that those who believe in Christ can nevertheless be damned if they do not persevere in charity and good works.

To answer your other question, Catholic indeed means Universal. Universal means "always & everywhere." There is only one Church which can call herself universal, that being the Roman Catholic Church along with its leader the Pope. But to say universal means it includes all who believe in Christ would be in error. Because many say they believe in Christ yet they say they believe in divorce, homosexuality, contraception, etc. For one to hold the universal faith, he cannot deny anything taught anywhere in the universality of the true religion (lest he actually deny Christ while saying he accepts Christ).

Her universality comes from the fact that Jesus Himself established the Catholic Church. It is the fulfillment of the Old Testament religion God gave to the Jews. Judaism is a continuation of the original religion of Adam & Eve and all of the Patriarchs and Prophets. God made a covenant with the people holding the true faith.

Where the Old Testament is the promise of redemption and salvation, the New Testament is the fulfillment of that promise. But one who practices the old religion cannot be saved by it. He must believe and be Baptized, as Jesus taught. That belief must be in Christ because no one goes to the Father without going through the Son.

So, in summary, Catholicism is in essence the perfection of the only religion ever given to us by God. As an illustration concerning what is true Christianity, all other Christian Churches have original root membership in the Catholic Church. All other forms separated themselves from the Catholic Church and then broke off into even smaller denominations. These departures from the true Church all have one thing in common - at one time they accepted the authority of the Pope but then rejected it.

If you have any more questions Mystic Sophia, feel free to ask.

[quote=SisterDino And the Bible DOES say: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 [/quote]

If one believes in the bible what is there not to understand about the word "whosoever"?

Thank you, Sister Dino.