BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Spirituality Christian Heaven and Pagans

I had an interesting talk today with a friend of mine who I haven't seen in a few years. We discussed families, friends, jobs, etc., and eventually she asked me what faith I was following. I gave her my usual answer of "a little bit of this and a little bit of that" but primarily Pagan. She, it seemed, had become a Pentacostal Christian.

The conversation immediately became a chance for her to save my soul. Frustrated at my apparent lack of concern for the safety of my soul and the souls of my family.. She finally blurted out, "Well, you can't go to heaven if you don't believe."

I calmly explained to her that I truly did not want to go to the Christian heaven. Why would a Pagan want to stand in awe front of a God he or she doesn't believe exists, only to be judged worthy to join a community of Christians?

No offense here, but I don't go to a Christian church so why would I want to participate in the Christian concept of an afterlife. The same principle also applies to hell... why would a Pagan want to stand in fear in front of another deity who he or she does not believe in, only to be condemned to the Christian concept of suffering and misery?

I believe that when you die, your afterlife becomes whatever you create it to be, very similar to the principles here on earth, but without the body to get in the way of the spirit.

To put it simply, as I did to my friend, the concepts God, Satan, heaven and hell, don't apply to those who do not believe in them. There is no and, if or but about that.

I certainly don't seek to convert anyone to my ideas of divinity or an afterlife. And, I would never even begin to think that I had the understanding or wisdom to make a judgment concerning anyone else's soul.

But, I can state with conviction and clarity that I will not under any circumstances whatsoever be spending my afterlife in either heaven or hell.

Ok I just have one question that I am real curious to know what your answer will be and that is What if there is just heaven or hell in the after life and you have to believe in God to go to heaven or go to hell. If there is NOTHING else then WHAT?

keep in mind I am not trying to convert or anything I just wonder what you would say to that question?

If hell is all the worste horrors in the world times 10 would you rather go there then heaven?

What if heaven was all the best of the world times 10,000 would you still wnat to go to hell then?

Or how about this what if Summerland and Valhala were actualy heaven or in heaven would you not want to go to Summerland or Valhala?

sorry I just got on a Q and A jig!!!

Hi Freebubbles...

I guess the best way to answer your question is to ask you a question in return.. What if heaven or hell did not exist. What if you died and found out that God didn't exist after all and that Jesus would not be in heaven waiting for you after all. What if you found out instead that there was a beautiful Goddess waiting to greet you into the most beautiful paradise imaginable.

Now, in this version of the question there is no catch. You don't have to believe in the Goddess in order to enter the paradise, and you won't be sent to a place of eternal misery. All that happens is that you have to review your life, and understand where you went wrong. Recalling your life history allows you to see the importance of your life, no matter how good or how bad it may have been.

When you have had enough rest in Summerland, perhaps you may choose to come back into another body, and fix the wrongs from your past life. It is all part of the way that your soul learns its purpose.

What if that happens to you Freebubbles?

I won't decide between heaven and hell because I don't have to. I know in my heart and soul that they do not exist.. at least for me. They are places that Christians go. I am a Pagan, thus I don't belong there.

We can what if till our time runs out.. What if there is ONLY a Muslim heaven? What if there is a Chinese heaven? All different versions of the same story. I firmly believe that our soul goes to whatever version of afterlife we choose. And, I refuse to believe that anyone's soul is sent to eternal suffering simply because they don't choose to read a certain book.

If you read the Gospel of Judas, Jesus talks about going home to the land of the Great Mother. Maybe he is in Summerland waiting for you to arrive... and you took the wrong bus... hmmmmmmm.

Love and Light...

Actually.. Here is a question for the Christians out there.. Does Jesus actually use the word "God" anywhere in the N.T. I am not talking about saying "my father," but actually the word God itself.

Does Jesus in any part of the N.T. make references to Moses or any of the other characters in the O.T.?

If Jesus was not a traditional Jew.. i.e. Pharisee.. why would he believe in the same deity that they did?

This is not a challenge.. I just happened to be thinking about it in the shower this morning..lol.

Love and Light...

John 5:44-47

"How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuse you-Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

So, yes, He does speak about God and Moses in the New Testament.

Something else about the Bible is that if there are contradictions or whatever, there is one underlying theme of the book of letters. Something that cannot be refuted and is not contradicted anywhere in the bible. What is this theme?

Simple. Without a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, no one will inherit the Kingdom of God. There is nothing anywhere in the bible that this contradicted.

Hi Vince..

My question wasn't about what John said Jesus said.. it was more on the lines of what Jesus himself had to say.. Can you produce a direct quote from the writings of Jesus please?

Perhaps there are those who do have a relationship with Jesus.. based on their own thoughts and ideas of who and what he was. I don't believe that you have to follow a certain doctrine in order to have that relationship.

It seems to me that the relationship one has in their heart concerning divinity is much more important than that which other human beings think they should have.

I believe that what happens to a soul in the afterlife is strictly between oneself and whatever force one feels is responsible for putting us here.

I don't give any credence whatsoever to those who tell me who and what to believe in. Fact is, they are as human as I am.. and don't have any more knowledge of the how and the what than I do.

Love and Light..

Yes, we are all humans and none of us have any more knowledge than the next person. What Christians HAVE is faith. Faith to believe in creation of man and woman; Faith to believe that a supreme being created that man and woman; Faith to believe that if we follow His word, then we will be saved; Faith to believe things that we can not see nor can we prove.

As far as producing a direct quote from the writings of Jesus, I don't think that can be done, because Jesus was a great storyteller, a healer, a teacher but I never read that He was a writer. Where ever He went, He told stories, taught lessons, and gave parables then later on, His disciples wrote about those "stories" and their travels with Him. When we want to know what Jesus said about ANY particular subject, we need only look at the RED lettering in the new testament (NT), which lets us know that Jesus was talking. That has ALWAYS been our way of knowing what Jesus said during those times, by following the disciples letters and reading the red text which represented what Jesus said. It has been passed down like that for ages and we just accept it that way. Most of what Jesus said and stories he told were parables, anyway, and we should try to understand what he was trying to help us understand.

We only need faith the size of a mustard seed to be able to move mountains, which tells you and other people that as much as we believe and profess that belief, it is even smaller than a mustard seed, because we can't move mountains. We can, however, tell the GREATEST STORY ever told and give God credit for what He has done and keep Jesus alive in our hearts and in the world and let the spirit guide us each day.

Each region may have a different name for the "highest" power and the final resting place for our spirit, but the supreme being that created us wants us to believe, understand and accept that HE is the one responsible for our being alive. So, it doesn't matter if it is a muslim heaven, a jewish heaven, a chinese heaven or a christian heaven, if we believe in the supreme being who created us all, then we are all going to be in the same place. Jesus, the son, came to earth to tell and remind people who were not following His father's commandments that they should watch out and do what is right, if they want to have eternal life.

What keeps me on track and being kind and caring with each other (in my heart, being a christian) is that I have the spirit with me all the time. The Holy Trinity is very important to me because God made the world and all that is in it, including us, and gave us laws to follow. They are good laws: love your nighbors, don't kill, honor your father and mother, and others. Pretty easy to follow, actually. When people bagan to ignore the laws and have sex in the streets, with anybody and even with animals. God sent His son to tell the world to get back on track. When man decided to kill His son, as was meant to be, the SPIRIT stayed on earth to live within the hearts of those who believe. The Holy Trinity is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

Believe me, Linda, when I say that I am not trying to "convert" you, save you or anything else. My only charge as a Christian is to spread the Good News, which is what I am doing. I am not one of the people who says that we each have our own place to go when we die or that there is only ONE place to go - my Christian heaven. God is the name I know as the supreme being who made me and this earth, because I was born in America. If I was born in another country, my God might be called Allah, or some other name. Only because I WAS born in America, GOD is what I call the supreme being, bot Allah or anything else.

God is the name of the feeling that I have in my heart when I want to help others, want to teach, want to be kind and share what I have with those less fortunate. God is the spirit inside me who helps me be happy and feel complete when I love my neighbors and help strangers and walk and talk with elderly people. All the good things that I have learned to do to make this world a better place is because I try to be more Christ-like in my daily life.

Each of us has a spirit that lives inside of us, aside from the soul that we were both with, that makes us who we are. If we follow that spirit to make life better for others, than we have accomplished what God wants us to do, and I think we will end up in His presence. (Or HER presence, although I don't give much thought as to the SEX of our maker.) You and I both, as well as Vince and many others, all have the same basic ideas of life (and after-life). We ALL believe in the spirit and we ALL think we should act and be the best kind of people that we can be. I believe that is all that is asked of us. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if EVERYONE tried to be the kindest, most honest, most helpful, most agreeable, BEST PEOPLE they could be?

Trish

I'm sorry, but christians do not have ownership over faith. Everyone has faith in something, even if it is faith in there being no god. Being born in America is what taught me there are many names for the higher power. Christianity, along with all the others, is a religion. Religion is not the same as spirituality.

I have faith that before the week is out, someone calling themselves a christian will be coming to my neighborhood, ignoring the clearly posted signs, telling them NOT TO, they will come knocking on my door trying to convert me.

I also feel equally sure that my automatic sprinklers will come on while they are standing there and they will get soaked.

I would like to share a story here if I may... It comes from the Hopi people.

They believe that the Great Creator came to them a very long time ago and told them that he was going to divide them into four races and colors.

Each color of human would be responsible for going in a different direction on the Earth and learning the lessons of that direction.

He sent the black race to the West to learn about water. He sent the yellow people to the East to learn about air. He sent the white people to the South to learn about fire, and he sent the red people to the North to learn about the Earth.

He gave each race two stone tablets and told them that when they had learned their lessons, they would come back together in the House of Mica (United Nations building) to share their knowledge. That knowledge would allow them to make a safe, harmonious and peaceful world for all the people.

There have been several times that all four races could have come together, but it has not happened. All four races still have their stone tablets. They are in the land of the Hopi, in Tibet, in Kenya, and in Switzerland.

We are looking at a time in our world when decisions must be made. We are running out of natural resources and in turn, destroying out world in search of more.

I think that the true wisdom of the Creator is in this story. It is not up to a higher power to bail us out of the mess we have created. It is up to us, as brothers and sisters of the human race to save ourselves.

There are no "chosen ones." All of us made the mess and all of us have to clean it up.

Love and Light..