BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Bible Basics Baptism neccesary for Salvation?

This discussion just started in the "Spirituality" forum under Spirtual Superiority

I wanted to get a few answers on it over here. Here's the sum.

- Connidee

- Harmony

- Amadeus1220

Amadeus also quotes John 3:3-5, and I looked up Mark 16:16 - and both seem to point to the fact that physical baptism is necessary. But I've always been taught (and still believe) that if a person accepts Christ into their heart, they will want to be baptized, but not penalized if for some reason they are not.

Any ideas?

I have a question Michelle. If you looked up the scriptures and they tell you that baptism is necessary to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, why would you not believe that?

Why would you still believe that baptism is merely a public acknowledgement and not necessary to "wash away old sins" and become a new.

You shower and wash off dirt and oils and you feel clean, refreshed and "new", why is that any different from feeling new after baptism?

I have a Christian counseling book and this is whatit says about baptism:

Being"born of water" is the physical birth. A definite time of coming in from the darkness amd into the light and newness of life. The"spiritual birth" is just as definite; coming from the darkness of sin and into the "light of the glorious gospel"

Jesus said it Himself in the Book of John that baptism of water and spirit is necessary to see the Kingdom of Heaven, and Jesus Himself was baptized and the Spirit of the Lord came down and said, "This is my Son and with Him I am well pleased."

The Bible says it and as a bible believeing Christian, I am going to take it as "gospel" (pun intended )


However, I bring into the question of those people who accept Jesus on their deathbeds and the thief on the cross.

They aren't baptized by water but they could be baptized in the holy spirit. I don't know Michelle, honestly. Jesus was baptized and the bible says you have to be baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit but as I said this is impossible for people on their deathbeds and and for the thief on the cross.

Maybe they are the exception to the rule?

For precisely the reason you state....



The text above (bold and italicised by me) is possibly the frankest and best answer anyone can give on anything based on faith.
We may well have written text to refer to, but unless we have a continuity or anecdotal cerifiable reference, all we can do is to rely on faith, and base the courage of our convictions on that.
We don't know all the answers, and we probably never will.

So some things we just have to shrug, accept and move on.

all anyone can do, is to do their best.

Amadeus,

It's funny you brought up the thief on the cross, because my pastor just preached on this passage yesterday - and my immediate thought was "Aha! There's someone who went to heaven without baptism" and I had planned on bringing it up in this discussion. You beat me to it!

This discussion actually shook me quite badly. I told my pastor I wanted to discuss it with him. I even refrained from participating in communion yesterday - because I couldn't get my heart into the right frame.

I'm still struggling with it. My husband sent me all the below links because he knew how upset I was about it. I haven't had a chance to read all of them, yet. And I know there are sure to be other articles out there refuting, but I wanted to list these anyway in case others were interested.

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I am not a biblical scholar by any means either Michelle and I just happened to lool in the Book of John because I knew that is where I would find something about baptism.

I also just found the word baptize in my Bible as the Word Focus for this chapter in Luke. It reads:

This Greek word means to "dip" or "immerse". People were coming to John to be immersed by him in the Jordan River. The Jews were familiar with the baptism of Gentile proselytes to Judaism; but this kind of baptism was new and strange to them. John called upon them to be baptized as a way of showing that they wanted to renounce their old ways of life and prepare their hearts for the coming of the Messiah. Paul used baptism to speak about the believers' identification with Christ. Just as a cloth is dipped in dye and it absorbs the color of that dye, so a person immersed in Christ should take on the nature of Christ.

I am using Nelson's NKJV Study Bible and every chapter or so has a different word focus that is spotlighted in that particular book of the Bible.

Thank you for those links, I for one will definitely be checking them out and see what they have to say.

i am sorry this discussion about baptism had you so rattled Michelle. As I said there are still a lot of things I do not understand about the ways of God and we are supposed to be kept in the dark about most of His mysteries to help increase our faith.

Someday, all questions will be answered. Also, I apologize for beating you to the punch about the thief on the cross.

I am probably going to step on a few toes with my response, but I assure you I do not intend to "put down" what Christians believe. I am just offering an opinion.

I do come from a Christian background, and was once very involved with the Church. Even then, I had problems with the teaching about baptism being necessary to salvation. Those words just did not fit in with the other stories about Jesus in the gospels, or the Jesus I knew.

There were other parts of scripture which seemed not to be in agreement with this quote on baptism. The example of the 'good thief' on the cross is one of them.

Jesus said that those not against him were for him - or something like that, though it may have been the other way around - eg: 'Those not for me are against me' = but it amounts to the same thing. He once told his disciples that those who speak his words 'will have their reward' - which I don't think referred to hell! (I have not looked up these quotes, but I'm sure others will know to which I refer.)

There are people who are not Christian, and not baptized, who genuinely love Jesus and consider him the greatest teacher, prophet, Master who ever lived. They model their lives on his, and follow his teachings.

And what did Jesus mean when he said that 'the first will be last, and the last will be first'?

And when asked what a person must do to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, what did he say? He said to keep the commandments. Then he said that the greatest commandment was to love God with all your heart and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. He did not add, 'and you must be baptized'! Not then anyway. He also had some pretty strong things to say to the religious leaders of the day when he told them that (and he named many of those who were regarded with contempt) these people would go into the Kingdom before them! At this time, no one was being baptized. Baptism only happened after his death and resurrection. Why not before, if it was so vital to salvation? Why did HE not baptize? Why was baptism not mentioned during his lifetime and in his preaching prior to the crucifixion? His famous Sermon on the Mount makes no mention of baptism. Why?

Yes, Jesus accepted baptism, because John the Baptist was doing this, and he wanted to identify with others, as he always did. He was not setting an example. He was FOLLOWING one. It was an expression of his great humility.

I am thinking that it is a mistake to take every word of the Bible literally. If it is used as a guide and not interpreted literally, then it is a wise path to follow. We also need to remember that it was written a LONG time ago, when things were different. Much of it was directed at certain groups of people, and their ways of living in that point of history.

The actual Gospels were not all written by the people whose names appear above them. Many were copied from other authors. Most were written many years after the crucifixion. Things can get distorted by word of mouth, and it is a fact that Peter was not a great fan of Paul, who never met Jesus in real life, yet Peter was one of the main apostles chosen by Jesus.

I guess I am just suggesting that we encounter these problems when we take the Bible literally, as if every word is the exact word of God. The Bible was inspired by the faith of the writers, but it was written by men. To those of you who will remind me that it was inspired by God, I question that, because no person can know the mind of God. They were inspired by what their own experience was of the God they believed in.

I do not believe in a God, as such, but if I did, I would think that such a Being would judge what was in people's hearts, rather than whether or not a person was immersed, or water had been poured, or sprinkled. I think water was just a symbol of 'cleansing' and that a sincere act of 'acceptance' and 'renunciation of evil' - as in the vows taken at the time of baptism, would be just as valid. After all, it is the intentions of our hearts which is important here. Not the outward symbolism. The Bible tells us that God knows the secrets of every heart, and I believe that this is how they would be judged, not by what they have believed, or done, but by what God 'knows' is within their hearts.

Jesus so often stressed the greater importance of acting with love and compassion, than the observance of the letter of the law. I think that gives you the best answer to this question.

Patience.

And just to throw another iron into the fire, or spanner in the works, or whatever you want to call it....

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The Bible seems clear that Jesus is our perfect model in how our lives should be lived out. Even in His perfection, Jesus was baptized and so should we be. However, it serves as an act of obedience, and outward expression of an inward confession.

Some things we cannot understand; like is it absolutely necessary to be saved. Some say yes and others say no. But, what does God say? If possible, we need to be obedient to what is written in the Word. If it's not possible, God will deal with us the way he dealt with the thief on the cross; mercifully.

The thought that always comes to me when someone asks a Biblically related question is "What is the motive behind the question and what does one intend to do with the information?" If it is to look for loopholes on ways to do less rather than more, then I hope we never find our answers. However, if we really desire to know, then it's easy enough to ask God and He will reveal "the truth."

God has already promised in his word that if we ask anything, it shall be given (especially as it relates to the kingdom and eternal things).

Joyfully serving the Savior,

W.

Patience, Jesus was baptized by John long before He was ceucified and Jesus doesn't baptize with water because He baptizes with the Holy Spirit and it was mentioned during his lifetime.

In fact He told Nicodemus that baptism of water and of spirit is necessary to see the Kingdom of God. That is in John 3:3-5.

As Harmony and I mentioned, the thief on the cross was not baptized with water and neither are death bed conversions. This is just more of the mystery of God and how He works.

Amadeus.....Trying to be gentle here...but isn't it possible - just possible - that those writing the bible made a mistake? It seems to me that this might very well be an aspect of human error rather than Holy mystery. I don't really see how something as simple as baptism could hold a mystery.

If you've been baptised by a priest with water, then you have this in your favour.
If you turn to God and die a Christian, having accepted Christ, then you are baptised by the Holy Spirit, and you have this in your favour.

I don't see where the problem - or mystery - lies.

There are far more "important" things to consider as mysteries, than this.