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This is a deep question for me, for the thought that a mere soul will find itself in a place called hell for eternity tears my heart apart.

I have had many discussion with people about this topic, yet I suppose I have not been able to accept what many believe.

Some will tell me there is only one way to heaven, based on one's belief, can this be true?

Can we all make it to heaven no matter what our beliefs are? whether we be muslim or Christian?

Lucy


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Ooo good question and you're asking CAN we not WILL we. I have to believe that every person that is created as an innocent little creature must be given SOME chance to get to heaven. It would be an awfully unfair God that created children in situations where they had no possible chance of ever reaching Heaven and would be doomed to an eternity of anguish.

That was always my problem with the super-strict reading of original sin. It in essence said that a little baby who was born and then died before being baptised would go to Hell forever. It's not the baby's fault if say it had a genetic disease or the doctor made a mistake. Why should the baby suffer an eternity of torment as a result?

Isn't the point of God giving us free will that we each can *choose* good of evil and it is our *choice* that determines our fate?


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I was fortunate that in a sermon from a Catholic priest when I was about 12 years old he said: Where is heaven? Then answered it himself with 'heaven is a state of mind' - that idea has stayed with me all my life.

I think that gives each of us the chance to make choices that preserve our peace of mind and through caring and loving allow us to feel the heavenly state of joy, even right now.

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Oh boy, I'm not going to be very popular today. I can see it already....lol.


This maybe hard for anyone to hear. It was hard for me to hear as well. I don't know if you acknowledge the Bible as God's Word. I don't know if this is something you've heard before. For me, I recognized the Bible as authoritative scripture straight from God so it was easier. I'm not going to shove that acknowledgment down your throat. Thats something you have to find on your own.
However, you don't have to believe to check my source. It is in the New Testament Book of John Chapter 14 verse 6. Jesus says " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." This is probably what you've been told and shown over the years. I know I was. I never fully understood untill I looked for myself.
What I found was (in a big nutshell) that God created man and woman in the garden. He gave them 2 rules. But other than that they were free. They CHOSE to be disobedient (as he knew they would). This is our free will and God's soveriegnty. We are the only creatures that have free will. The angels do not have it. I believe the ones closest to Him did at one time like lucifer. But he chose instead to be jealous of humans and NOT obey God by serving them; again, disobedience. When he fell from heaven, he took a third of the angels in heaven with him.
Look closely at Genesis 2 & 3. You'll see that what God had told Adam EXACTLY was not communicated to Eve clearly and she misquoted God. That in itself it the very essence of our troubles today. So many of us question what God says. We think "no way did he really mean THAT!". So we read into it and decide for ourselves thus changing what God says to fit our own desires and that's exactly what Satan wants us to do. To live in a state of confusion makes it very easy for him and his little friends to decieve us and keep us from the love God has for us.
God chose the Nation of Israel for His children through Abraham. He gave them the 10 Commandments through Moses. He gave them these laws to show them and us HOW we sin. Apparently we weren't that good at understanding God...lol... Moses then, in turn had to explain what all the payments and the sacrifices were for the people to become "clean" again and able to approach the "throne of heaven" which was the temple or alter. I can just see Moses now hunched over his parchment paper with a crowd saying "what if this?...what if that?..." and Moses having to come up with all kinds of answers for them. Look closely at the 10 Commandments...wouldn't our lives be simpler if we could keep them all the way God intended for us too? We would be perfect people. But unfortunatly we aren't. We are fallible just as we were created to be and we need God to lean on. We need His direction.
When the sins of the people got to be too great God sent a Savior, a Messiah who would "save" the people from themselves. The Jewish people back then got it all wrong and again misread what God was trying to say. They thought that He would send them a warrior who would relieve them from the oppression of the Romans. Not really God's style. He is more concerned with the nature of our soul than our flesh. Our flesh will die but our eternal spirit will go on. Just as our own children have consequences for wrong behaviour or choices we, too have consequences with God. As it was, ALL of us were going to hell if something drastic didn't happen. God loves us so much that He made a way. But He only made ONE way. He made the ultimate sacrifice on our behalf. He sent His Son here to earth to live as a man (which couldn't have been easy considering he was part of God as every son is part of his father) and then sent Him to die an awful death by being beaten and whipped untill the skin and muscles on His back were hanging in shreds. He had wooden spikes driven thru His wrists and His ankles; then HUNG UP FOR EVERYONE TO SEE! His mother had to watch her Son go thru this. His closest friends were powerless to do anything to stop it. During the time He hung there He took ALL OF THE SINS OF THE WORLD UPON HIS OWN SOUL! Yours mine and everyones. Hitlers and Mansons and everything vile that is in this world today. The man who had known none of this: no guilt no shame no addiction to porn no lust no hate no perversion, no murderous rage, no resentment, HE FELT IT ALL FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE AND THEN HE DIED FOR US. He took it and died in our place so that thru faith in Him and Him alone we could stand before the Father at the Great White Throne Judgement and be justified. Jesus is our filter before the Father. Without Him we will stand there naked and be judged according to our WORKS (or lack there of) ALL of our actions, thoughts, reactions, feelings, desires...everything will be put on the scale and we will be judged. Thats why there is only one way. God has shown us how to fight diseases like AIDS and Cancer, we have this great technology to share and talk to one another. Buisness's boom and industry grows, but we seem to be dense in the salvation of our very soul. Like a good Father God wants us all to come to the saving knowledge of His Son Jesus Christ. It is up to us what we will do with the information. Before you dismiss this post out of hand because of the content, check it out for yourself. Search yourself. If you had been in the Twin Towers or on that Airplane where would you have wanted to end up in that last split second? Before you ask me to PROVE what I say and what I believe let me ask you how do you know I'm wrong? Where's your proof that I'm wrong? We all need to ask these questions of ourselves...God knows our hearts...He made them and He can read them. What will He find in yours?

This is not an attack these are rehtorical questions and don't require an answer. I don't want to offend anyone but the questions were posed and I am committed to sharing what I KNOW as the truth...how do I know? Because God confirms it in MY HEART. No one will ever change that for me.+

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Thank you all for sharing your views which I will never see as an attack but more so what they are, people's individual beliefs, or even those of their particular religion.

There are a number of issues that arise. I can relate to the statement about heaven being a state of mind, I think there is a wealth of truth in this.

I also acknowledge that it was Jesus that said that heaven can be found within. What does this mean?

jennarobinson, there is nothing wrong with what you say, it aligns with your truth and the truth of your religion, yet if that is the case, it would assume that someone that does not believe in Jesus would not make it to heaven. So what of everyone else? what of muslims, hindu's or buddists? ... Would a Christian be surpised if they were to enter heaven to find one of them there also?

When I read the Bible what echo's more than anythign in my soul, is that Jesus's teachings are not those that can be ignored, indeed there is a wealth of wisdom and truth. Yet is it enough to merely believe in Christ without living a Christlike life?

When Jesus says " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." does that imply that Jesus's teachings are the onjly way? in other words the way that Jesus taught us how life should be lead?

When asked which of the commandments was the greatest jesus responds to say to Love your Lord God with all your heart mind and soul and love each other as you would yourself. Would this be enough to make it to heaven? for all? and are we also supposed to love oursleves?

Would someone like Hitler make it to heaven? even if he repented on his deathbed? and if we are to love our enemies, would any of us be happy to see hitler in heaven?

Many questions I know, yet they need to be asked to reached a greater understanding.

Lucy


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Hi Lucy,

Those links I gave you on the other thread in the New Age Channel discuss the Greek meanings of "eternity", "hell", etc. (WhatTheHellIsHell.com et.al.) They also discuss how the theology of an eternal hell was non-existent in regards to the early church fathers. The concept of an eternal hell is a dogma (one of many) created by man to control man. Just like indulgences and "buying" your way to heaven, and so on.

I believe both hell and heaven are a state of mind, like Susan. Hell is separation from God, and if ego/fear keeps you from knowing Divinity, you are in an aspect of hell in direct proportion to the strength/size of your ego and fear.

FWIW...

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I believe everyone can make it to Heaven. It's just a question of if we will.
God will make it clear to each individual Who He is and I think each individual will make the choice of either belief or disbelief.

If the early church fathers did not believe in an eternal hell, they would have been going against Jesus' teachings.
Matthew 25:46 (eternal punishment)
Matthew 5:22 (fire of hell)
I consider John an early church father.
In Revelation 1:17 he writes of Hades

I think Hell is a real place. I think all life is eternal and we will spend it in one of two places Heaven or Hell.

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1. So what of everyone else? what of muslims, hindu's or buddists? ... Would a Christian be surpised if they were to enter heaven to find one of them there also?

2. Would someone like Hitler make it to heaven? even if he repented on his deathbed? and if we are to love our enemies, would any of us be happy to see hitler in heaven?


To Question #1:

The answer would be no. I would not be surprised. I am positive that God is bigger than my own little mind. I think His ways are beyond anything I could ever imagine. I could never be surprised by something God can do. Thats what I love about it. God can do ANYTHING!! "Nothing is impossible with God."

To Question #2:

This question reminds me of the theif on the cross next to Jesus. When he professed his belief in Jesus as the Son of God Jesus told him that he would be with Him THAT DAY in heaven. If Hitler had repented and declared his faith in Jesus on his deathbed, then I BELIEVE he would have gone to heaven. I believe this is how God works. He doesn't want to lose anyone. He has so much love for us that He would be overjoyed to recieve one such as Hitler into His arms because some one like Hitler had strayed so far away. Like the "Prodigal Son" parable. This parable is a description of how much the Father desires us to come to Him.

If I saw Hitler in heaven I would be overjoyed because it would mean that he had come to Christ and repented of his actions and been forgiven. If God could forgive one such as Hitler then how much more will He forgive me.

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Yet is it enough to merely believe in Christ without living a Christlike life?

Oops... forgot this one...

Is it enough to merely believe?...hmmmm....I believe that when we "merely believe" we start a process called "sanctification" which changes us and our approach to life. We begin to go deeper and find that by believing Jesus was actually the chosen Messiah and that He is not only God but was man also, alters our heart and soothes our spirit.

"Belief" in Christ is enough then. But if there's no action on our part to BE different then we need to question "What" we believe about Christ. Is He truly our Savior? Or are we merely acknowledging he existed to try to get to heaven and avoid hell. Are we admitting that we are dead in our sins and without Him we are lost to eternal darkness, being separated from God forever!

Living a Christ-like life is a by-product of loving the LORD your GOD with your whole heart, mind and soul. Loving Him more than money, more than your family, more than your children, more than life.

Test your devotion....would you be willing to die for being a believer?

If our "belief" aligns with Gods and our lives are a living testament to His then yes believing is enough....

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I would really hope that even someone as "bad" as Hitler COULD go to Heaven if he really and truly realized the error of his ways. The whole point of free will and of learning as we go is that we all make mistakes. The mistakes can be large or small ones. But if we really could believe that 'you could completely destroy your entire life permanently', that wouldn't be a world view that I would enjoy.

I'm not saying that someone who is afraid of Hell, the one second before dying can say "Oh no! I'm sorry for everything!" and it makes a difference. But let's say someone worked in a concentration camp for 4 years. But when they get out they are completely humbled by how bad they were and now they go out into the poorest areas of Thailand and dedicate their entire life to helping the poor, spending all their time, energy and resources and every waking hour on helping others.

Let's say the guard does these things NOT because "he wants to get into heaven" but because he truly and honestly wants to help people.

At the end of his life, is it really fair to say "You were bad for fours years and realized your mistake - but too bad"? Isn't the point of free will that we make mistakes along the way but they help us realize what the best path is?


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Lisa,
I think thats the whole point of salvation.
Its when someone is humbled -either through an experience like the concentration camp or just a revelation caused by the Holy Spirit- and sees the error of his ways that he is 'saved.' However, he doesn't have to go and do good. It's the point of belief that makes the difference.

We would hope that someone like that would go on to make up for the harm he has done in the world but that isn't the requirement. If he dies at that instant, he still goes to heaven.

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Lynne, as I said, you have to investigate the meaning of the Scriptures themselves. The original Bible was not written in English, as I'm sure you know. So it's important to investigate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

I challenge you, or any Christian, to investigate further. My Mom is a staunch believer in hell, but despite me printing out lots of pages about the origins of the doctrine of hell, she refused to read it. Perhaps afraid that her faith might be shaken? Afraid to discover the truth? Regardless, individuals will only be ready to hear when they're ready to hear.

Here is an article about early Christians, the original language meanings of "eternity" and hell, and other information:

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Janet, I won't get into a long debate except to say that Many, Many Bible scholars disagree with you and do agree on a literal hell.

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Well of course they do, Lynne! But they're usually working within the framework of certain presuppositions and going from there. If you start out believing that hell is literal and non-negotiable, any scholasticism is going to be to support that doctrine. (I majored in theology in a conservative Pentecostal college. I know how the game works...)

I don't wish to argue with you, either, but did you at least read the questions brought up in the last post? Most of those questions cannot be answered, I'd wager--especially when other Scriptures contradict the idea of a literal, fiery hell.

God is not love if he has made a place of eternal torment for humanity. This is one of the reasons I do not call myself a Christian: I do not agree with this "damnable heresy" which is so crucial to most Christian's theology.

If Christian's truly believed in a literal hell in their heart of hearts, then why, pray tell, aren't they banging on people's door most of the day trying to get people to repent? Is it that they don't care?

I think on some level the heart knows there is no literal fiery hell. I knew when I was a kid, despite my indoctrination, and I always heard God say to me "One day you'll understand Janet."

And one day I did. Hey, if a fear-based belief is something appealing to a person, more power to them. But the doctrine of hell has certainly not benefitted mankind, nor Christians. And if one were to say "Well, I've benefitted! I shun sin because I don't want to go to hell!" then I'd say "You mean to tell me your relationship to God--your spirituality is driven by fear?"

And if that is indeed the case, then I think that's sad. It's the same type of reasoning and lack of self-worth that draws women to abusive lovers over and over... And how sad to have God as the ultimate "abusive lover".

Just my take...

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blimey ... will any of us ever really know the answer to hell's existance or do we have to until we have passed? ... I do not know.

I have driven myself nuts pondering this thought. Yet I have also asked myself, what difference does it make to my life? If hell does exist, do I try to live my life trying to gain access to heaven and avoid hell? and if hell does not then exist, how do I live my life?

In fact, should hell's existence or non existance impact on how I choose to live my life?

If I seek truth for this answer I know my life should be lived in a certain way, regardless of what the afterlife may hold.

Yet what I believe is that there is only God and all else is much like a painting on the artists canvas.

There were some great posts here that touched me. Very beautiful and compassionate.

I still pray that we all make it to heaven.

Lucy


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Jesus said:

"The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age and the harvesters are angels.

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will weed out of His kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears let him hear."
Matt 13:37-43

If Jesus confirms that there is a place of continual weeping then I choose joy.
If Jesus confirms that not all will be counted righteous then I choose righteousness.
If Jesus confirms that all are invited but few are chosen then I will RSVP before it's too late.
If there is Heaven and Hell, then I choose Heaven.
If there is good and evil, then I choose good. If Jesus says it then I choose Him.

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If Jesus confirms that there is a place of continual weeping then I choose joy.
If Jesus confirms that not all will be counted righteous then I choose righteousness. If Jesus confirms that all are invited but few are chosen then I will RSVP before it's too late.
If there is Heaven and Hell, then I choose Heaven.
If there is good and evil, then I choose good. If Jesus says it then I choose Him.


Very nice Jenna.

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I was actually taught that hell wasn't a place of flames and pitchforks. I was taught that heaven was a place of great love, of belonging and being happy. Therefore in essence "Hell" was living in an absence of these things, so you were in comparison cold and lonely and wishing things had gone differently. The 'demons' that tormented you in hell were your own - your own jealousies and guilts and regrets that you went over and over in your mind about.

For example, one of Janet's quotes on Hell was

"If all things were made for GOD'S pleasure, is it conceivable that God would derive pleasure from seeing those He created endlessly tortured?"

But I don't think anyone has ever said that God is "pleased" by any of this. In fact I think it's said in many places that God is very SAD by all of this and really hopes that people will choose a path of love. But again the whole point of our world is that God gave us free will. He can't MAKE us choose love, he can't MAKE us choose to go with him. It's our OWN choice to turn our back on him! It's our own choice to dwell in a world of jealousy and hatred and envy. And therefore it is our own choice to end up alone, sad, away from his presence.

So I think on that point at least I disagree with the litany of anti-Hell comments <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If God could just "make us all permanently happy", so much for free will. We'd all be robots with smiles painted on our robotic faces.


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But I don't think anyone has ever said that God is "pleased" by any of this. In fact I think it's said in many places that God is very SAD by all of this and really hopes that people will choose a path of love. But again the whole point of our world is that God gave us free will. He can't MAKE us choose love, he can't MAKE us choose to go with him. It's our OWN choice to turn our back on him! It's our own choice to dwell in a world of jealousy and hatred and envy. And therefore it is our own choice to end up alone, sad, away from his presence.

Your right Lisa. That is exactly it.


Thank you Lynn :love:

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About the after-life, I'll share this story that happened to my family member before she died:

She said to me with joy: "Susan, you would not believe the places I've been!"

She had stopped breathing several times for long periods and then started breathing again and we thought during those periods of not breathing she had died - her body was still.

When someone tells me with sadness that their loved-one has died I share her experience with them as a comfort.

I take this as a comfort, too, that we are on a journey here on earth that does not end with our bodily death.

I can not say WHAT the experience beyond human life is, but it gives me so much joy to be loving and caring now, without having to wait to walk through a doorway into the beyond.

-Susan

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some real beautiful posts full of hope and inspiration and I can especially relate to your post Lisa.

This particular post scared me a little:

They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears let him hear."
Matt 13:37-43

And yes I know it is written, yet it's sad isn't it. That anyone will find themselves in this place. This is still something that I struggle with. Perhpas one day i may come to terms with it, perhaps not.

Still wishing we can all make it to heaven, or at least that we can all find heaven within us all.

Thank you all for your kind posts. You have given me much food for thought.

Lucy


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Susan's post reminded me of this story of when a friend of mine died of cancer in his mid forties.

He had two college aged children. At the end he was drifting in and out. They came in to see him the last time he woke up and he told them. "I've just been to the most beautiful place and I can't wait to go back there." He died right after that.
It still brings tears to my eyes to think of how he got to reassure his children before he died.

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Hi all,

I didn't write the litany of "anti-hell" statements, but as a former minister in that tradition (as well as being brought up in it) I can say that a lot of "hell-fire brimstone" preaching is exactly that, and is used to manipulate people into salvation, "going to the altar", conversion--whatever you want to call it.

I'm passionate about the subject because of the damage that it had caused me growing up, especially with my relationship to God, and how much this teaching affects others negatively, too. So many want to experience joy, peace and all those things we associate with heaven, but they can't get past the idea of punishment and retribution from God, which leads to guilt, fear, and ultimately, sadness or worse. It's called "cognitive dissonance".

Just some thoughts...

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I know what your talking about Janet. No one wants to be told that they are wrong. Especially someone who is dead set in their ways and CAN'T accept that something their doing goes against the teachings of God. But that's the way Jesus said it. He said that (in a nut shell) that not all people will go to heaven. He said that (again, in a nutshell) that there will be many who preach a different gospel than the one he preached and that they profess to know Him but He will respond to them in the last days that He never knew them. It's easy to get caught up and impressed with our own intelligence. It's easy to state that we have been educated and believe that WE, not God, have all the answers. That is the sin of the world...pride...and we all have a hard time overcoming it. But, in the end, we will all have to account for our lives...only mine will be filtered throught the blood of Christ. I'd rather take a stand behind Jesus than risk being eternally wrong standing alone before God claiming I know more than His Son.

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Hello Jenna,

Again, talking about what Jesus, or anyone in the Bible says, is taking an English interpretation at face value--one that is far removed from the culture of the day. Culture matters. For example, knowing that Gehenna was a garbage dump affects the meaning of Gehenna, as do aion, the word for "eternity" only meaning "age" or limited time.

Jesus talked about entering the Kingdom, and I absolutely agree that not all will enter the Kingdom. It must be entered as a child...and it's not "eat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." I believe that the Kingdom can be experienced now and entered into now ("now is the day of salvation"), and one can choose if they want to live in a personal hell or heaven (Kingdom).

However, my understanding of those terms will be different than those of a traditional, literalist view of the Bible. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's not about being wrong as much as the doctrine never jived with my spirit, even as a child. God cannot be love and torment his children. If an Earthly parent did that, we'd call them sick.

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I agree with Janet here that what we are discussing is an *English language Bible* which is just about 2,000 years removed from its initial creation. So not only is the language quite different, the culture is quite different.

Look at Shakespeare. That was only 400 years ago and it was in English. Even so there are many debates over just what a phrase would have "meant" to the natives of England at that time.

So now we're talking about 5 times as long, and back to a world that was vastly different from ours, with a language that has changed vastly over time. Yes, we have scholars who study it. But it is a really, really complex thing to try to learn about a culture just from the bits it left behind. We probably get 75% right. But that still leaves 25% of it as being questionable or outright wrong.

Also, people didn't have tape recorders back then, and paper was expensive. So as much as his apostoles adored him and wanted to carry his word exactly as is to all corners of the globe, they were after all only human. Even their very best efforts to be accurate might end up with mistakes in exact wording.

I think this is a great topic to debate! But I think relying on "the Bible must be 100% right" isn't really a good foundation, because we honestly don't know for sure WHAT the Bible said at this point. All we know is what the scholars we have right now THINK it said. And yes, the scholars we have now are WAY better than the scholars were back in 1600!! So a made-today translation would be far more accurate than the King James version. But I bet if we looked forward another 200 years, with all the findings and research done in that time, and compared their "literal translation" to ours, that we'd find some differences ... maybe big ones.


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I agree, Lisa.

There are whole disciplies within theology, including exegesis and hermeneutics. Interestingly, the flavor of each scholar's interpretation is usually in line with presuppositions that are made based on their personal persuasions. For example, if you're an Arminian, you'll interpret the Bible through the lens of "you can lose your salvation" but if you're a Calvinist scholar, you'll interpret scriptures through the lens of "no one can lose their salvation, but some are handpicked (destined) to go to hell or heaven before they are born."

And that's only 2 persuasions! You have dispensationalists which interpret the Bible as dispensations, literalists which take most or all of the Bible literally, and so on. Quite frankly, many denominations pick and choose which scriptures to take symbolically and which to take literally. If it serves their purposes, they'll pick literal. (Like hell, which will scare the hell out of people and thus make them easier to control.) However, Jesus also said "If your eye offends you, gouge it out." but how many Christians take that literally!

Also regarding translations is word for word literal translations versus thought for thought translations. For example, the KJV, NKJ, and RSV are what's known as literal, word for word translations. This is problematic for many reasons. Idioms is the big one. For example, in America, we know the phrase "break a leg". This is a phrase that is used before a theatrical peformance that means "good luck". Imagine translating that word for word into another language! They would wonder why someone would be so mean!

Translations such as NIV are thought for thought. Take the above example. Instead of translating the phrase word for word, they'd translate it "good luck". The original meaning is still conveyed, although the exact word usage has been lost.

Then, of course, you have the fact that what is known as the Protestant canon was actually voted upon. The Gnostic Gospels, apocryphal books, etc. was completely edited out. Again, you have to ask yourself "what was the cultural climate of the Nicene council? Why did Constatine change his colors often to fit his political agenda?" This will have an affect on which books were chosen.

Then you have the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. (Which applies to the "enforcement" of scriptures.) Take a 55 mph speed limit. Technically, if you go 56 mph you have broken the law. However, the spirit of that law is to prevent speeding which hopefully averts accidents. Is the spirit of that law violated by going 56 mph? Not really. 1 mph won't make much difference. Same goes for Scriptures. This is what I feel that Jesus often butted heads with the Pharisees about: religious dogma that oppresses people and engenders fear versus the "weightier matters of the law": justice, mercy, and compassion.

So many layers to all of this, as you can see. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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So as much as his apostles adored him and wanted to carry his word exactly as is to all corners of the globe, they were after all only human. Even their very best efforts to be accurate might end up with mistakes in exact wording

That would be true without taking into consideration that the Holy Spirit was living within the apostles and reminding them of everything they had seen and were taught.

But I think relying on "the Bible must be 100% right" isn't really a good foundation, because we honestly don't know for sure WHAT the Bible said at this point.

They do have original texts and when scholars go to translate for a 'new' translation, they go to the original text. They do know Hebrew and Greek, etc and they do know the customs of that time. So the Bible stays true to the original.
It was completed in less than 100 years after Jesus' death and still has a 99.5% accuracy rating to the original manuscipts.

I don't think anyone ever said the God would derive pleasure from torturing anyone.He has sent plenty of warnings to encourage people to turn to Him.
I wonder, if there is no real eternal hell, why Jesus had to die an agonizing death on the cross as the sacrifice for sin?

Where do we get the word 'hell'?
The Canaanite shrine in the "Valley of the Son of Hinnom" wa the place where human sacrifices were offered to Molech ( a pagan god). When Josiah, one of Judah's most Godly kings, came into power and decided to 'clean up' Israel, he so defiled the shrine as a place for idolatrous worship that it could never be used for that purpose again. He turned it into a garbage dump and incinerator for Jerusalem. Because of the continual fires that burned in the Valley of Hinnom, the word 'Ge-Hinnom' was gradually used to describe the place where the wicked are to be punished in the world to come. We know it today as Gehenna in its Greek form or'hell'.

I don't know that anyone can be scared into believing. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. I think some possibly need to hear about it in order to look at the possibility that their life and beliefs are flawed. Whether we want to believe in it or not doesn't make it less real.

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And whether or not one staunchly believes in an eternal hell doesn't make it so, either. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do humans really have a choice? Again, let's look at scripture. The Bible says that no man can come to God except the Holy Spirit draw him. A human's darkened understanding can only be "enlightened" by light, which the Holy Spirit brings. So how can mankind have a choice to choose heaven or hell in a literal, eternal sense when, without the Holy Spirit drawing them, they simply cannot be "enlightened"? (Or insert your favorite word...salvation, etc.)

There is no choice without awareness and one cannot become aware until he "wakes up". (Notice that Genesis said that Adam fell asleep, but it never said that he woke up! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

There are many words for hell, actually. Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, etc. Again, it's not so simple as "hell means X". That's why I posted the links I did which examines the different types of hell, what it means in the Greek, etc. There is no one "original text"; in fact there is no autograph of original scriptures. They are all copies. Different scholars actually use different sources for translating. Some even use a Latin translation to translate from! (Catholicism and the Vulgate as one example.)

Everyone's life and beliefs are "flawed" in the ego realm! Whatever leads a person to peace, joy and love is "right" because that is the nature of God--and the nature of the Divine spark we all have within.

Here is an article about Bible translations, especially ones that do NOT teach about an eternal, fiery hell. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

An excerpt:

Quote:
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Matthew 16:18 KJV) It would seem that if, according to Christendom's doctrines, 90% or more of mankind will end up in eternal torment that the gates of hell will prevail, and mightily! Do you believe the Bible, or what most churches tell us about the fate of the wicked? If you say, "I believe in the Bible," then you are faced with the question of "which Bible?" You see, as translators have received more and more understanding of the original languages of the Bible, "hell" and it's "eternal" status are rapidly fading right off the pages of most Bible translations, including the conservative ones!

Recently, we received a copy of the Holy Scriptures produced by the Jewish Publication Society. Of course, being the Jewish Bible, it did not contain the New Testament. In reviewing it, we discovered some interesting things. One shocking observation was discovering hundreds of footnotes as the following: Exact meaning of Hebrew uncertain, syntax of Hebrew unclear, the traditional reading madhebah is of unknown meaning, grammar of Hebrew unclear, meaning of first line uncertain, meaning of verse uncertain in part, force of Hebrew uncertain, construction of the verses uncertain, etc.. This was very shocking. Those of us coming from a conservative Christian background are usually told the Bible is inerrant. The Jews were the guardians of the Old Testament who were extremely diligent to preserve the text that not one jot or tittle was added or removed. Nearly all Christian Bibles rely on the Jewish Masoretic Hebrew text for translating the Old Testament into current languages. How was it possible for the translators to produce an "inerrant" Bible, when the "guardians of the so called 'inerrant' Hebrew text", did not know the meaning of many words and passages?

Unfortunately, the problem does not lie with the Jews lack of understanding of their own language, but with a false doctrine perpetuated by fundamentalists for many years. The Doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy. This doctrine has caused Christian leaders to have to outright lie to maintain their position. They have to take plain facts and hide them from their followers. Because they have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is "the inerrant" translation of the "so-called" original texts, they have locked themselves into a position where lying, distorting, and name calling are the only options left to maintain their ground. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years and there have been thousands of corrections! They don't tell you the King James Bible was never authorized by anyone. They don't tell you the original KJV had a calendar of annual Holy days which all believers were to follow such as: Purification of the virgin Mary, annunciation of our Lady, Innocents day, etc.. They don't tell you the Greek text used by the King James translators produced by Erasmus, a Roman Catholic humanist monk, did not have manuscripts that contained all 27 books of the New Testament, so he borrowed out of the Latin Catholic Vulgate! No, they can't tell you these things because that would be the end of the lie which has kept them in business.

As we browsed through this excellent Old Testament translation, marvelling that these Jewish scholars were not ashamed to tell the world they were not perfect and therefore could not produce an inerrant translation, we noticed something else even more startling than the footnotes. We couldn't find the word "hell," even once! This was incredible! The very foundation of Christianity, the Old Testament, three quarters of the Bible, and the word "hell" could not be found. In searching dozens of English translations of the Old Testament, to our absolute amazement, the word "hell" could not be found in most of the leading translations. Abraham, Moses, David, and all the rest of the peoples of the Old Testament only knew one place where all people went, good or bad . . . Sheol, the grave, the place of the departed.

This information aroused our curiosity. The thought occurred: how many times is the word "hell" used in the Christian Bible. Surely, with as much as is taught about the subject in most present day churches, one would think this word would appear hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times in the Bible. The word "heaven(s)" occurs 603 times in the leading Christian English Bible translation, the New International Version. The New American Standard has the word heaven(s) 635 times. To our absolute amazement, the word "hell" in the New International occurred only 14 times! The New American Standard had it 13 times! What was even more astounding was that, like the Jewish Old Testament, neither of these leading Bibles has the word "hell" in the Old Testament! The creator, according to these top selling Bibles, agreed with the Jewish Old Testament that the concept of the place of eternal torment for the unrighteous could not be found in the first three quarters of the Bible. Adam was not warned of "hell." Abraham never heard of "hell." Moses, who brought the Creator's Law into the world warned that "the wages of sin is death," Sheol, the grave. He never ever warned about being roasted, toasted, and endlessly tortured. David, when chasing after Bathsheba, suffered the consequences of his sin, but eternal torment was not on his mind. How could the Creator be so thoughtless, and not warn millions of people of a fate they did not even know awaited them? Could this be just? Could this be loving?

Having several thousand dollars of Bible research software and dozens of English Bible translations, we wanted to see if these top respected English Bibles (NIV, NASB, etc.) just made a serious mistake or whether we stumbled on to something which should cause us to reevaluate what we have just accepted because we heard it so many times and just assumed was correct. Most of us picture an apple tree as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but you won't find it in any Bible, none of them! Most of us, I am sure, when thinking of the Passover, think of a lamb, but a goat was equally acceptable. Our minds have been doctrinally contaminated by traditions much more than perhaps we are willing to admit.

Of the many English Bible translations we searched, the King James Bible had the most number of cases where we found the word "hell" in the Old Testament. It translated the Hebrew word "Sheol" as "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times. Almost without exception, all the other leading Protestant Bibles didn't have the nerve to do what the King's translators did, that is, take the Hebrew word "Sheol" where everyone went, according to the Old Testament teachings, and divide it into "hell," a place for the unrighteous, and "grave" or "pit," presumably the place for the righteous. They translated this word according to their theology, and not according to the Hebrew. Most of the translations did not have the word "hell" in any part of the Old Testament. The ones that did, have mentioned it only a handfull of times, always from the Hebrew word "Sheol" which they translated the vast majority of times "grave, underworld, etc.." Those translations that use the word "hell" are so inconsistent with it, that it is impossible to determine which Scriptures clearly refers to "hell" and which refers to "grave." Where one translation had "hell," another had "grave." In other words, those translations that tried to put "hell" into the Old Testament couldn't agree with each other as to which verses spoke of "hell" and which spoke of the "grave."

People, if the love of Christ is in your hearts, this should cause you to really look into this. This world needs to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it. If He is not a respecter of persons, as He claims in the New Testament, then that warning should be loud and clear to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that Adam was never warned, he was warned the penalty would be death, not eternal torment. Thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Moses came along and gave to Israel His Law, which was binding only to Israel, and it mentioned that the wages of sin was death, not eternal torment. He wrote about blessings and cursing in this lifetime, not of some pending judgment which would set one's course for all eternity. He destroyed Sodom for great sin and promised to restore them one day and give them to Jerusalem as a daughter. (Ezekiel chapter 16) According to the Mosaic Law, the blessings and cursings dealing with the Law dealt with this lifetime, not with eternity. The consequence of breaking Moses Law was cursings in this lifetime, the greatest of which was a shortened life through an early death. Period!
There is much more at that link, including indepth analysis of Sheol (the grave) and other words for "hell".

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I think that all the views discussed here are great. I like to see different points of view...

However, This is the "Christianity" Forum and here we do subscribe to the Bible as 100% true Word fo God. It was not "written by men" it was holy inspiration. Just as we subscribe to the belief that Jesus was God's Son and also human.

There have to be some foundations. If you want to have a discussion on the verification of the Bible, then I suggest you offer up that topic. But you will find my answer the same. The Bible is the foundation of Christianity and the Words of Jesus are found in there. This is the place where we can discuss Biblical truths, ot debate the truth of the Bible.

It always worries me when people enter into a Christian forum or chat and decide to change the direction of the discussion away from the Bible as truth. Without a foundation to draw from, there is no discussion.

We can discuss the truth found in the Bible concerning heaven and hell, but WE CAN NOT MOVE AWAY FROM THE BIBLE AS TRUTH. NOT HERE.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is a Christian Forum. And here, I decide that we will acknowledge the Bible as the Holy Inspired Word of God and nothing else. If you disagree with the fact that I am in charge here and this is my rule, you can go elsewhere.

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So, what you're saying then, Jenna, is that anyone that does not agree with you 100% or questions the integrity of the Bible or theology is not welcome on this board?

That no one can come to this board and ask questions about your religion and beliefs?

That no one can attempt to discuss exactly which Bible is believed 100% (since denominations can't even agree with one another on topics like hell, salvation, heaven, evil, etc.)?

If I am correct, then where do you propose that these kind of discussions be held since this board is about Christianity and its fundamentals? Are you not confident enough in your faith that you will not allow open discussion?

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First of all, I'm new here and I am very impressed with all of you. This is the first board I have been to where no one was flamed for his/her opinions. I see so much respect here.
How wonderful!!!

Now:
"Would someone like Hitler make it to heaven? even if he repented on his deathbed?"

My input on this is Jesus taught us this lesson and asnswered the question while He was hanging on the cross.
The sinner next to him was about to die. He repented and Jesus told him that he would be with the Lord that very day.
So I would be inclined to beleive that if Hitler repented on the moment of his death, he will be in heaven.
God will use him to do good.

Take the apostle Paul. He had slaughtered 1000's of Jews and Christians. But God used him to do good after he repented and accepted God and His teachings.

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So, what you're saying then, Jenna, is that anyone that does not agree with you 100% or questions the integrity of the Bible or theology is not welcome on this board?

No to everything but "questions the integrity of the Bible".
To this comment anyone would get the same response I gave earlier. This is the forum I moderate and it is a Christian Forum. Here, we subscribe to the Bible as God's Word.

That no one can come to this board and ask questions about your religion and beliefs?

This is also so not true. This is the place to ask questions about Christianity...but be prepared for the answer to be drawn from scripture. If someone disagrees with my "personal beliefs or religion" then they probably aren't going to agree with my answers here either.

That no one can attempt to discuss exactly which Bible is believed 100% (since denominations can't even agree with one another on topics like hell, salvation, heaven, evil, etc.)?

I understand that there are many interpretations of the Bible (NIV, New King James, New International...etc). But my opinion is that there are many words in the english language that can describe the same event. They are all talking about the same things and I believe that any ordinary human being can interprete the Word of God succinctly to allow it to speak to their hearts. I don't play semantics.

If I am correct, then where do you propose that these kind of discussions be held since this board is about Christianity and its fundamentals?

I hate to say it, but Janet, you are not correct on this one. And I think you have a great following amongst your readers...and then some... so I'm sure you could take the topic of whether the Bible is truth or not into your own forum at New Age and have a wonderful discussion.

Are you not confident enough in your faith that you will not allow open discussion?

This comment about my faith and the strength of it is just not worthy to be commented on, but I will: My faith is a personal journey and I have worked hard at learning what I have learned. My source has been the Lord and His Word. So questioning it would be like questioning my integrity and I'm sure that no one here would do that. As I've stated many times, all are welcome here to discuss their views on Christianity. That includes the Bible, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and all they encompass...but we will adhere to the Bible as truth and Jesus as the Son of God and the Holy Trinity. These are the basics of Christianity. I will not stray away from this perspective and I will not allow the participants of discussion here to stray anyone else away either.

I'm sorry if it doesn't jibe with someones feelings, that's not my intention. I simply have been given this forum and I intend to keep it genuine. People come here to find out Biblical truths and I think we have to keep it pure and honest according to the Word of God. If I was to go to another forum and insist on this, it would be wrong. But this is my forum and it is entitled "Christianity" and christian is what it will stay.

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Welcome Tooee,

Thank you for your kind words. I love your reference to the theif on the cross. That is exactly what salvation is to me. It is grace extended tome when I least deserve it.

And Paul is one of my heroes. ow hard it must have been for the apostles and disciples who accepted him based on what the Lord Jesus had done for him.

I hope you continue to come here and express your opinions.

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Hello, Jenna,

Goosie's thread appeared on your board, not mine. She asked a question, and I provided answers according to my understanding. Understanding the word origins of Heaven and Hell as well as theology is a part of how I answered Goosie's question. I don't dispute that the Bible contains truth. What I dispute is what truth. It is true that Jesus said "If your eye offends you, gouge it out." Does it mean it's truth to maim and dismember yourself if you miss the mark? If not, why? The same kinds of questions can be applied to bigger "truths" such as Heaven and Hell.

On the New Age site, I doubt we'd be discussing this topic; while the New Age has no dogma or creed, most who align themselves with what is know as New Age believe in a benevolent Deity. This includes a Deity not made in man's image or ego, which includes vengeance and punishment.

The question I asked about your beliefs and the relative strength of them regarding open discussion: why doesn't that warrant comment? If you are secure in your faith and your convictions, they why does it matter if theology and word origins are discussed? If someone asks a question on your board, are you saying the only ones welcome to comment had better be the one's that are fundamentalists or literalists?

Is not researching word origins, exegesis, theology and hermeneutics looking for "pure and honest" aspects of truth? Even Paul said to the Bereans "search out the scriptures to see if what I'm saying is correct." The "truth" of doctrine and demoninations are based on theologians interpreting "truth" as they see fit. Are you saying that their findings cannot be evaluated...or that one cannot think and research for themselves as to what the Bible means?

In my opinion, what is "pure and honest" are things aligned with the Holy Spirit--which includes love, mercy and compassion. (Things Jesus said are the important things...the "camels".) In your world view, hell and punishment somehow co-exists with love, peace, and compassion. That's fine. That doesn't mean, however, that those that disagree with you are not seeking honesty and truth as well, nor that their views aren't insightful, truthful, or helpful.

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What a shame. I was so saddened by the last couple of posts as I found this discussion nourishing, albeit that there were different points of views and beliefs expressed, which I found to be healthy.

I am not seeking for someone to give me the answers, but rather seeking a greater understanding with the aid of others. I can find the answers that I need with the wonderful wealth of knowledge that is shared on this site along with my quuiet study. To this end, all points of views have been beneficial, even those that i do not agree with, because by acknowedging that I do not agree with them, it helps me to discover what i do agree with and believe.

I do not wish to get drawn into debates about the Bible. I look to find understanding of such issues that I want to try to understand. The issue of a place called hell and whether we can all make it to heaven is something that i want to understand. Is it enough to save my own soul in the knowledge that others will perish? How can one feel joy with such knowledge? How?

The question of whether we can all make it to heaven is a compassionate question, a cry of the human soul wanting it to be possible.

If indeed we are one body, how can part of the body end up in a place called hell when the other part goes to a place called heaven?

Please do not take any of these questions as an attack. This is not the intent.

Seek and yee shall find. I always remember this quote because if I do not ask then perhaps I will not find, if I do not knock then perhaps the door will not be opened. I may not be able to agree with any viewpoints provided. Yet with reflection and prayer the truths will come. In God's own time.

For the time being, are we not all one family regardless of our beliefs and religion? can we not all share our views, without them being seen as an attack, but moreso as a spiritual awakening, at least that is the case for me.

I can't thank you all enough for sharing your views. I have been so touched by this discussion and although I admit that I still have not quite gotten my head round it, I continue to read the Bible as I truly believe all the answers are found in the Bible.

I am but a child with very little knowledge of religion and each person that has shared their views has given me the ability to take a step further towards truth. Indeed, God does send angels to help you along the way. Thanks you sweet souls.

Lucy


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Your Welcome Lucy....

Continuing ones journey is beautiful. I am honored that you stopped by here on your way to discovery.


Let me know how it goes OK?

I am not in a position to give advice. I don't consider myself to be an expert on much. I simply write what I feel and hope that anything I present may be helpful to others.

Go with God my friend.

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ahhh Jenna, I believe everyone is in a position to give advice, based upon their beliefs and experiences. There is an opportunity to learn from all, without shutting the door on anyone.

Thank you for your kind words. Touched.


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As a long-time seeker of Truth and a former New Ager, I only came to Christ a few years ago. There came a point in my searching when I had to figure out for myself whether or not Jesus Christ was telling the truth when he said he is God. If he was merely one of many "good teachers," then what did He teach, exactly? One thing he said was that he is God. I don't remember any of the other "good teachers"saying that(Bhudda,etc.).The true and complete gospel was never explained to me, but a "different gospel" was, a distorted and false one. I knew bits and pieces of the Bible, but not the whole story of why exactly Jesus died for me. I didn't want anybody dying for me! I did not understand what that was all about. I was more concerned with my opinion, if I agreed with the Bible, than with whatever the Truth might be. I was thinking of what seemed to be true to me; of what I thought should be true, according to what seemed fair to me. But the Bible says "God's ways are not man's ways" and that "there is a way that seems right to man, but that leads to death" (separation from God). The Bible plainly says in all translations that one cannot earn their way into Heaven: (being a good person doesn't get you into heaven)
Specifically, for example, 8Ephesians2:8-9 says:
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
We are saved by faith, but not by faith alone.
Many passages of the Bible also say that essential for salvation (going to heaven) is believing (having faith)that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins and rose again. Satan believes that Jesus is God (it's in the Old Testament); is he going to heaven, according to the Bible? Further study of Scriptures showed me that other things are essential as well, in order to go to heaven. For example, the Bible says that "faith without works is dead." So, clearly faith alone is not enough. (Good)works alone are not enough, either, as shown above. And all of this is according to God; my opinion has nothing to do with objective Truth. Either something is true or it isn't; I don't get to pick my own truth, although that is precisely what I believed at the time. I believed in some kind of God, and so I just had to know if Jesus was telling the truth--is He really God?or a liar? or crazy? If He really is God, then what did that mean for me, personally, and all my "truths" that I had gathered over the years? I had to know if the Bible is the true, inerrant word of God. If it is the absolute Truth, then I need to do what it says to do because it is the plan of the God of the Universe, and I'm not God.I had thought that "the truth shall set you free" meant that since I knew my truth, I was, therefore, free. The complete quotation reads: "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." I wasn't free (forgiven, going to heaven), because I didn't really know the Truth.
What I learned is this:
The steps to forgiveness of sins and salvation are given all throughout the Bible, by examples of specific people, as well as by the words of God, Jesus and the Apostles in the Bible.
The steps are:
l. To hear and understand the gospel.
2. To believe in God, and believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior who died for sins of humanity and rose again. (took the rap for humanity)
3. Repent (turn away from) sins and dedicate my life to serving Jesus Christ.
4. Confess Jesus as Lord.
5. Be obedient to the commands of God.
6. Be baptised according to the Bible (in the proper way, for the proper reasons, the way God says is the proper way).
It's all there in the Bible; I just never put it together nor was I willing to value Truth above my own opinion, until it was spelled out to me. Each person has the free will to accept or to reject the Bible as the inerrant word of God. God is "not willing that any should perish" (that is not His will), but we do have that choice. Because God created us with free will--he doesn't want robots-- he wants us to come of our own volition to Him because He loves us so much. In my case, although I was well-versed in all the arguments against the truth of the Bible and the claims of Jesus, the more I read and studied, the more I saw that I had been deceived. "Satan can appear as an angel of light," the Bible says. And, "he is the father of lies," the Bible also says, many times.

For me this has been a long, arduous journey of questioning and doubt. Years. I was not willing to give up my own personal truths I had worked so hard for. In fact, truthfully, I set out to prove that the claim of Jesus were false.I am certainly no expert, but I have had a change of heart. Because I sought, I found; because I asked, I received; because I knocked, it was opened to me, just as the Bible says.
These are just a few things I have learned. There isn't room here to cite all the applicable Bible verses nor to go into a complete presentation of the gospel. But I sure wish someone had explained some of these things to me a long time ago, instead of my having to find out the hard way. Possibly my experience will help some other genuine seeker out there...
Blessings,
baka

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Thank you for sharing baka. I know how you feel about having someone tell us about the truth of the gospel along time ago. What comes to mind for me tho, is whether I would have heard them then. I'm not sure I would have. And besides since it took God showing me directly in His Word that the Bible is truth, I doubt whether another person would have convinced me fully. I probably would have still doubted their word. For me it took God to open my heart and the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to discover the truth of Jesus' Words and the road to my salvation.

Remember, the sinful nature resides right below the surface so set your mind on the things of heavan and don't stray. There is no half and half.

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Jenna, I completely agree with what you have to say here.

In His Grip,
Staci

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Thanx Stacy!! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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sadly i think we may not well for the kids anyway we have been brakeing the bibel codes for a long time there are kids that say they are christain and due alot of things they arnt supposed to do i myself dont think there is a heaven or hell but what i think that happens is that we will play are life ovver again and over again till we find the answers we seek then are spirit will become free and you could wonder the earth as a ghost or become reborn into a new body or fourm that may explain how some people get deja ve


to live is to die to die is to live
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