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What do you know or think about who and how built the pyramids in ancient Egypt?

I think this culture called the "Egyptians" built the pyramids with big stone blocks <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think they either rolled them into place on logs, or dragged them on wet sand <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, don't get mad at me ... I was kind of hoping you said that, so we could have a nice little discussion. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Away from politics, minority rights, and other thin issues. Let us talk about the past! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> We can hardly hurt anyone this way. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also thought of them rolling blocks using trees and things ... BUT ... let us start from the beginning ... what was the Egypt population at those times? Several millions maybe? 10?

How much does a stone block weight? 20-30 tons approximately.

How far away could be the closest stone minery facility from the construction site? I've read about 900km figures.

Was there any watter in the dessert? Nope. Food? Hardly. People would have to have constant supplies. Besides - living in a desert is no easy: at day it is very hot and at night - freezing cold.

How many people would you need to pull a single stone block? One person can move 100kg at his best. So, you'll need some 200-300 workers to move one ... only one of thousands.

In those conditions, for how long could a worker live and work in the dessert? A month, maybe two?

How would they pull the blocks at the top?

There were no animals nor machines.

How many and what KIND (Egypt - wood is not THAT abundant and strong) of trees would they need?

Did they really have the tools and skills to make those blocks have a PERFECT shape? And how about some complex proportions, directions, etc.? Were maths THAT developed at those times? Hardly.

What I'm saybing, that it is just impossible, if you think of the scale of the thing, the amount of precision and all other things. If all the population in the world of those times had united, they still wouldn't have built a single pyramid.

Hell! TODAY, can people today build one? From stone blocks of 30 tons? If they can, they would require some very-very serious technology, machinery and other things.

What do you think?

They didn't have animals eh? This was a culture that worshipped cats as Gods. I think they had animals <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The caste structure was much different then though. Very few ruling elite with oodles of money and power, millions of 'workers' with no money or power. If you can have hordes under your control, it's very easy to do just about anything you want. Look at the Great Wall of China.

Same is true for the pyramids. Sure it would have taken say 300 guys to pull a block. Did they care? They had tens of thousands of them to order around! They just told them to pull, and they did. It's not like they had congressional oversight, or anything else to stop them. They had decades in which to build the pyramid.

Believe me, if say Bush had the ability to say "everyone in the US, you now do what I tell you to do, and I want to build a gigantic pyramid" and if everyone actually listened to him, it could be built. Even if he said "we can only do this with rolling logs and stones and water".

If you have the power, and enough humans to order around, that's pretty easy.

And yes, they do have food and water in the desert. Research has shown that they had regularly spaced 'diners' along most major roads, so that anyone travelling the road could stop at the end of each day and get good food and stores and such <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These weren't the dark ages, ya know <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> These were kingdoms with giant armies, and fleets, and cities.

Giant armies? That means that out of the total population, a huge part would not participate in construction? Take away kids and old guys, take out the nobles. How many workers were there? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Besides, workers were diying, they would work for a couple of months, but that's about it. Can you imagine ... errrrrrrr ... the rate at which ... population had to grow to compensate it? :rolleyes: <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

300 worker per block is a theoretical figure, considering that everyone could pull 100kg which obviously was not the case. Considering that there was not much friction with the sand. I mean, this number can easily be 1000 per block. Now, blocks are huge but not THAT huge, how can you oraganize 1000 men around it to pull it?

Of course they had food, otherwise they'd die in two days time. BUT, that means that another part of population had to provide supplies? And how about MAKING them? Egypt just couldn't have that amount of people to manage it all.

Also, consider that at least SOME people were still needed in-town, to keep things going, sinve there were other things to do too apart from building.

The thing about the quality of the pyramids is also interesting. Plain workers could not do anything like that. Where would you get people with such skills? It was quite a dark age in this sence. I'm not saying anything about pyramids having some special positioning, that some proportins gave some constants TOO precisely, like pi, e, etc. ...

As for animals. I meant that they had no animals capable of doing this job. No animals nor machines.

Nowadays people are even less prepared for this kind of work. I doubt that if you put entire US population in the desert with Bush incharge, they would make a pyramid. They would just eat the poor guy and go home. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I mean, there are huge castles and palaces, some ancient temples. All them are very complex constructions. But they are mainly built with small blocks and stones, using some equipment. You can imagine how they built that, but pyramids.
The Great Wall, yes, it is impressive, but it had a huge history and other conditions. It was built for centuries, starting with small wall. Besides, the material is simple - stones. It is amazing, but still within the limits of possible.

hehe this is funny

i gonna see if i can answer some of the stuf u've thrown up here...

the Egyptian civilisation was very advanced. they didn't build thier pyramids in the middle of nowhere and they didn't live were there was a chance that they wouldn't survive. people are not stupid and Egypt isn't one big desert...

their stone is local and believe me-they didn't get it from that far away. no1 is that stupid especially the Egyptians.

of course there were animals. like Lisa says, they even worshipped animals. they had cattle domesticated and wild-what do u think they ate aswell? GRASS?!! this was only part of the system of pulling the blocks into position however. and how do u know they didn't have 'machines'? battery chemicals have even been found in pots so we know that they were xperimenting with huuuge technology for the time.

where did u get the information about the state of Egyptian trees and wood? do u know xactly the species that were around at the time? archaeologically no evidence remains, but there are seeds and pollens of plants and flowers to show what there was, but nothing to definately prove how strong or weak this wood was when it was used.

and they must have had tools to make such shapes and with such accuracy- how else do u xplain it? aliens or sumthing?!! do u have so much disrespect for the human mind and motivation?? just because this is a civilisation that was existing a long time ago, doesn't mean that their brains are less develpoed than peoples today. yes they didn't have the technology and industrial advances as we do now but they sure had sumthin to get those blocks into position. also think of the engineering and design thought that went in2 building such a thing.

people today have become lazy. not only has no1 got the time or the motivation to complete or even start such a project but no1 needs to use their minds as much as mankind did back then. we were still in the making and all we had was our intelligence and the pyramids prove that it was very active.

one thing many people fail to see is that perhaps the people who built the pyramids weren't being dictated to or being used as slaves, but they realized just how important these structures were to their civilisation and religion. these people wanted to build sumthing so huge to not only satisfy themselves and their worth to the land but also to please their rulers. there was a completely different social and political heirarchy and relationships that there is today in any culture.

what is actly meant by the 'dark ages' to which u refer?? this is a term used for when the Romans ceased their control over their empire somewhat and the civilisations that were left behind in their wake floundered temporarily. this is about 400AD (410 in Britain). how do u know they were 'plain workers' ? any1 that needs to get sumthing done learns how to do it, there wasn't ucha division of labour as there is today.

ur saying all these things without realizing how stupid u sound. do u really believe an alien race came down from the skies and magically built these damn things? coz that would be the only xplanation if u don't believe mankind is capable of such a feat. all the written and archaeological evidence points (and tells of) the Egyptians building the pyramids. there is no discussion and no ifs and buts about whether mankind constructed these beautiful structures.

lets just leave it at that shall we? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think aliens did it just like in the movie, The Mummy.

Or Stargate
There really are no logical answers, so could it be true?

I saw a show on PBS a few years back where they actually made a pyramid using only manpower and did all the mathematical calculations that the experts think the ancient Egyptians did. Through prior excavations of the areas of Pyramids, they had found a campsite where the slaves/workers lived during the construction of pyramids and made determinations on what materials they used and how they did it. Anyway, I cannot offer too much detail, because I don't remember all of the show. But, they did build a pyramid the way they think the ancients did, only on a smaller scale. The stones they used were of the same type and size as the ones in the ancient pyramids and they did actually use logs to roll them on and ropes to pull them with very ingenous ways of doing so - by wrapping the ropes around temporary braces and pulling from below to get the stone moving up. And yes, the ancient Egyptians, as well as other cultures of the time, were very mathematically inclined. I do believe you would have to use math and intelligence to construct such a structure.

Pyramids are very mysterious. Did anyone ever see the documentary where the arcaeologist team had that little robot, not much bigger than a kitchen toaster and they sent it up into one of the channels (small tunnel like path) that slanted up from the interior base as far up as the robot could go? It was very interesting. The robot went up quite a distance and came to two separate more open areas, like mini chambers, but there was nothing too astounding they could find. There was a followup to the show, but I never got to see it. I do not know if they ever found anything significant.

I'm assuming that this is in reference to the classical Pyramids from the Great Age of Pyramid Building in the 4th Dynasty, particularly those at Giza.

It's generally accepted thatpyramid building began in the 3rd Dynasty at Sakkara and that the pyramid was an outgrowth of the mastaba tombs of the times. "Mastaba" literally means bench - the tombs were so-called because they had the shape of a backless bench , consisting of a rectangular flat shaped construction quite similar to the benches which may be seen in Egypt today. So, it is thought that a Mastaba style tomb was constructed and then someone got the idea of adding several similar smaller layers resulting in a step pyramid. From this came the idea of filling in the steps to create a true pyramid.

The pyramids at Giza are not the first. The step pyramid at Sakkara was first, then came the Bent pyramid so called because it seems ike the builders suspected part way through that the angel of construction was off and that it would collapse. So they changed the angel part way through construction, giving the pyramind a bent appearance. Then there is the Red Pyramid which is built at a much shallower angle than any of the others. There is also the pyramid at Meduim (I've forgotten exactly where this fits in the chronology) which collapsed around it's core during cosntruction. Practice projects for the buildings which were to follow, perhaps?

The three pyramids at Giza are the high points of the age. Those built earlier show a learning curve, those that follow were not as well constructed and have deteriorated over time.

As to the actual construction work at Giza, The Nile has changed course over the ages and it used to run much, much closer to Giza than it does today. The large granite blocks came from the quarries at Aswan and were brought to the site by barges. The limestone casing blocks came from quarries at Giza. Workers had much more than a "camp" - they had an entire village consisting of their living quarters and businesses to meet their needs. The had water (the Nile was right there), they had food - their rations were documented on papyri and, as I recall, rations were heavy on the onions. Also, there is a very strong possibility that Giza was NOT a desert climate at the time. It's right on the fringe of the desert today. Workers were not going to be dropping dead from the harsh climate - they were born, raised, and lived their lives in this climate and were certainly acclimated to it. It not like the Egyptians imported Siberians to do the work.

The pyramids are thought to be part of a public works project with construction going on only during the off-season for agriculture. Something to keep the population focused and employed in a time of peace when other work was slow. Also remember that the Pharaoh was much more than the political ruler of the State - he was seen as a Living God. As such, he would have had no problems finding workers for his project and the project would also keep the army busy and productive rather than giving them time to sit around and cook up plots against the crown. The project would have been billed as a religious project, something to do with the after life, something the Egyptians of the times were very concerned about.

As to not having animals - that's just silly. Sakkara is home to the tombs of the sacred bulls. There are cemetaries devoted to cats. There are ram headed sphinxes. There are tomb paintings and papyri depicting all sorts of animals. Priests are depicted wearing animal head masks and some of the Gods are depicted with animal heads.

As to the math and construction. They had the tools needed for working stone and laying out foundations - plumb lines, levers, pulleys, and chisels. Sightings for laying the foundation were taken from the stars. Math was based on the Golden Section. Standard thinking is that the blocks were placed on sledges and the sledges were pulled into place using a system of rollers (logs) and construction ramps. Yes, there are problems with this theory - like what did they do when they got to the top? Some suggest the priest had powers of levitation. Of course there is currently no way to prove or disprove this. But remember that this is a highly evolved people we are talking about - they were performing successful brain surgery and, if they could do that then the possibility exists that they may have had things like lasers and levitation devices. Just because we haven't found any or any documentation of them to date does not mean that they did not exist.

Incidentally, look at an aerial view photo of the 3 pyramids at Giza, then look at the constellation of Orion in the (Winter) night sky. Notice hole the layout at Giza matches the belt of Orion, known to the ancient Egyptians as Osiris? This indicates a definite connection between the pyramids and Ancient Egyptian theology. Personally, I don't think the pyramids were meant to be tombs - I think the had to do with some form of religious initiation. But nothing has been found to prove or disprove either theory.

Just thought I would throw in some information from The Cleveland Museum of Art:

"We know what the Egyptians ate from pictures painted on tomb walls of food being prepared and eaten and from the remains of food left as offerings in tombs. Bread and beer were the main foods for many people in Egypt. Bread was made from a grain called emmer-wheat. As the wheat was ground into a flour, small bits of stone and sand often got mixed in and made the bread hard to chew. The teeth of many skeletons that remain from the time are worn down from eating the bread. Beer was made from a grain called barley. It was much thicker and more nutritious than the beer that is made now and was considered more of a food than a drink. Workers were paid with food rations. Emmer-wheat and barley were the most important items, but workers also received many of the vegetables that we eat today such as beans, onions, garlic, lettuce, and cucumbers. For all but the most wealthy Egyptians meat was a luxury that was only enjoyed at festivals and on special occasions. (Animals were also used as a source of fat and milk used in making cheeses.) The wealthy also drank wine made from grapes. The Egyptians used honey instead of sugar to make cakes and to sweeten beer."

"A pyramid is a massive structure built as a tomb or grave to house and protect the body of a pharaoh for the afterlife and as a monument to honor the pharaoh. It has four triangular sides that meet at a point. Pyramids were made from huge blocks of stone. The largest surviving pyramid is the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Cheops, (located near present-day Cairo). It covers an area of thirteen acres and is made up of two and a quarter million blocks, which each weigh five-thousand pounds on average. Before pyramids were constructed with smooth sides, the sides of the earliest pyramids looked like steps. These stepped pyramids might have symbolized a stairway to heaven which during some periods might have been seen as a way for the dead king to climb up into the sky to become a star. "

"The stones of the pyramid were cut from rock quarries with tools such as chisels, saws, mallets, hammers, and wedges. Much of the stone used in the construction of the pyramids came from areas very close to the building site so that it did not need to be transported long distances. To make it easier to move the stones to the pyramid they were placed on wooden sleds that were pulled through canals of water leading to the building. No one knows exactly how the large, incredibly heavy blocks were first lifted and then put into place. Some of the different methods that have been suggested are the use of cranes or the use of a complicated system of levers and rockers which were most probably used to position the large blocks. It also seems certain that ramps were used to make it easier to move the blocks. These would have been a great technical achievement in themselves. As the pyramid grew taller the ramps would be extended. Remains of long straight ramps have been discovered, but it is also believed that a series of smaller ramps, forming a type of scaffolding, would also have been used and later discarded."

www.stemnet.nf.ca/CITE/egypt_pyramids.htm