<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes: Common people. Where are you?

Why doesn't anybody discuss something here? Like what car is good, what car is bad, what is important in a car and what not ... <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think a lot of people don't spent time on cars, they're sort of like a washing machine, something useful for getting a job done.

OK, here's a question, would you consider getting a 2-person-only car? I really wanted an electric car because they're so environmentally sound, but the only one out at the time was a 2 seater. I really have to have a 4-seater because I travel with friends sometimes!

I have the M Roadster, it's a two-seater only. Everybody has a passion (almost everybody), it may be cars, it may be wines, it may be art, it may be antics or it may be stamps. In most cases, a person would defend his interest telling it's worth the time and money, etc. So, if the passion are cars, I'll tell anyone that's the most interesting and thrilling experience one can have. Cars are not "to transport a person from one spot to another", just as your house is not a shelter from cold and rain. A two sitter is nice and feels very different. It's a luxury because of being an expensive and unpractical toy. The more expensive - the more unpractical. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Not always of course. I like sport cars, cars with lots of power, torque and solid dynamic performance, that is not to say I'd be driving an "engine on the wheels" type of car which has nothing but brute power which is imposssible to apply and control. A coupe or a roadster car with a nice engine (not necessarily insanely powerful) will make you feel very confident on the road. A normal sedan car can be nice but it's all about being practical, about accomodating your friends and family and about going for shopping. A logic conclusion from all this is that a two-seater car should only be purchased as the second car, once you have an every-day use one. You should also consider your priorities. A two-sitter is an aim for "car passion", thus there is no sence in bying a modest two-seater. More expensive ones obviously cost money. At this point you should think whether you feel like spending that amount of money on a car (that is, you're really interested in them) or it's just a momentary inclination which would soon pass. There are many other costy hobbies. You can completely renew the furniture in house, you can spend it on travelling, you can buy jewelry. I would'n do the later since it's stupid, so I'd only do it if my wife (a hypothetical one <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) asked me to, within reasonable limits of course. Cars are more valuable than some pieces of carbon embraced in metal.

Anyway, back to the point ... a two-seater is good to have if:

1) You like cars.
2) You have enough free money.
3) You prefer it to all other expensive purchases.
4) You already have a car for everyday use.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So much talking and with no use. Can never shut up in time. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Here is to your question: If you're environmentally aware, you should just by an economic coupe with 4 seats and low engine capacity, it will not consume a lot of fuel, have enough place for everone and reasonably envirnment friendly. Don't think they make this kind in USA, though. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Would have to be a european. You really need a new car? What's wrong with the Mustang?

I've considered your question what's wrong with the Mustang. And, for me, the Mustang has never been attractive. Don't know why, so I couldn't tell you. It just seems like a "guy" car. My husband loves Mustangs. Unfortunately, he'd drive it like an old woman wearing bifocal blueblockers on a Sunday morning. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't understand the "guy car" thing. What's different between a man and a woman? That's like saying a job is a "man's job" or a "woman's job" ... can't a man be weak? Can't a woman be strong?

I'm not referring to what's under the hood. I'm talking about the exterior. And, I'm definitely not saying that I don't appreciate a car with power. I would love to have an Aston Martin V12 Vanquish.

There is such a concept as "majority". That is, some cars are tipically driven be women, and other by men. Ofcourse, I'm refering myself to the exterior design of the car. However, there seems to be a correlation between power and design, since it's very rare for a powerful car look too femmenine. Tkae Mercedes SLK por instance, the standart version is for women only, but the SLK 32 AMG is a different story. The same is for BMW Z3 and M Roadster, which I happen to have.

This is a very delicate matter to discuss, since the issue of "equal rights between men and women" is not far behind. But yes, I think that some jobs should, must and can only be done be men, and other - by women.

Aston Martin V12 Vanquish is a nice car. But you must be going for the brand here. That "classic english-ariscratic" aspect of it. Some time ago, Aston Martin sure was a nice car from all angles, but now it is rather underdeveloped. Do you know that, they wanted to put air conditioning handles from Ford Fiesta inside of it? The influence is clear. Anything touched by Ford degrades. Take Jaguar as another example. Aston Martin has a very strong name and image which unfortunately, for the last many years, have declined and lost its shine. I would only have it for its past merits, kind of nostalgia. The raw power under the hood is badly applied, the car is to heavy, all the mechanics are way behind current standarts.

Many cars, which were a boom a decade ago are now dying out. Either they seize to produce new competetive models, either they are bought by other huge comnies, which influence them so much that, they will hardly ever be something they had been before. Aston Martin, Lotus, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Bugatti and many other cars. The names are known, so are the merits, they leave a great legacy behind, but at the moment have no noble future.

My very first car was a mustang.... it was a 69 fastback painted candy apple red. I loved that car....

You know what's funny? Everytime my husband see's an old car (we're talking 40's and earlier) he stops whatever he's doing... gets all glassy eyed, and goes "oooooooooooooooooo" LOL!!!

Even with the exteriors, why would some cars be "for guys" and other cars be "for girls"?? I love Mustangs. Is that a "guy car"? What would be a "girl car"? I know guys that drive sedans, girls that drive jeeps, and everything in between. I'm really fascinated with this concept that someone would think of a car as "for a girl" and not "for a guy". Cars as far as I'm concerned are "for an individual" and it doesn't matter at all if that individual is male, female, black, white, chinese, you name it <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> All of us are unique!

That must have been GREAT, Jessica!! Do you have any photos of it? I love Mustangs. Tho if I was to get an older car at this point, my dad had a Triumph in college and I really want to get one just to sort of "connect" with his childhood <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, AINTD, what jobs do you think should only women do? This is really a bizarre idea as far as I'm concerned <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Woah! I must have missed the part about certain jobs being only for women! Let me tell you! My mother is a lawyer, and it was literally HELL for her to get through all of the male chauvenistic attitudes that some people have!! When we set up our booth (for those of you who don't know, I sell my artwork downtown) people ALWAYS go to my husband as the artist, then look totally shocked when he tells them I did it! And of course, I always get asked if I'm a lesbian (never mind the fact that I am really obviously pregnant, wearing a wedding ring, sitting with my husband) simply because I draw female figures! Anyway, heated subject for me <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

in answer to the other question, sadly Lisa, that car was when I was 16. I eventually GAVE it to a boyfriend (yes I kick myself every day... and teenagers think they're in loooooove, grrrr). My husband and I ahve a beat up mitsubishi mirage, that gets the most incradible milage I've ever seen, and a ford astrostar van, that gets the worst mileage I've ever seen, but is what we're stuck with since I have to lug two kids, a hubby, and my booth with art around every weekend <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And excuse the typos, I'm too lazy to go and change them <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

A small car with non-agressive looks is for women.

Politics is not for women. Army and police service, generally are not for women. Weightlifting is not for women. When women play football, it looks stupid. I wonder if they have already invented boxing for women ... or ice hockey?

Men and women ARE different and no matter how you try to make both do exactly the same things, some are just not for men and other are not for women. The most clear examples are in sports. Men would never do artistic gymnastics or artistic dancing under water (or whatever it's callel), would they?

I certainly hope I'm not offending anyone ...

I think your hope is hopeless:) Politics aren't for women? Should I sit quietly at home and let you pass all the laws I'll have to live with? The trouble is that so many of the laws invade my territory. I actually live a terribly traditional female life-I'm a homemaker who homeschools. However, I don't want only men making the homeschooling laws for me, or for that matter, laws regulating my parenting rights. I have a brain, and I try really hard to use it! So...I think I'm qualified to get involved in politics if I want to. Men and women can be different without being excluded from having control over their own lives.

No you're not. Even though you have a brain, you will use your emotions under stress. Only real cold women can think straight with no heart, but then again, I wouldn't call such one a woman.

History does know some great women, but their number is minuscule and very often they were not ordinary women who were given some power and authority, they were exceptional.

Usually, the laws are the same both for men and women (in some occasions they even benefir women more), so, there is no discrimination.

What I'm saying is that if we now and here, give all the power and control to women, the world will suffer greatly. You often think of men as being dumb, unreasonable, arrogant ... but in fact, the world is running, while far from perfectly but in a more or less right direction. Men are balanced. I'm not saying that women are stupid to be in politics, or they are too weak, not at all. What I'm saying is that they should not be there, because they are rather to emotional, they will harm everybody having all the best in mind.

I would say more, women should not really be into big business, where everyine is bloodthirsty. One female-psychologist said that at any under-stress situation, any woman will use her heart, and NOT the brain and this is dangerous, don't you think?

Err ... one more note ... I'm not trying too offend you and all other beautiful women of this forum and all in the world in general. That would be the edge of arrogance, machismo and disrespect. I'm trying to explain the point that usually the men have to hold women away from those things.

Business, politics, army, police, brute-strength sports, these are all activities that require that little something, women usually do not have. Some more physical strength ... some more psychological stability ... being a bit more "bad" (in a good sence of word) ... Army and politics above all require very clear and straight mind under all circumstances, women tend to get overexcited if something happens.

Men would be nobody without women and viceversa. There are just some things, that by nature suit women more than men and men more than women. While having softer heart and overall nature, women better take care of nature, environment, children related problems, charity, art, education. Many areas are just as good for men and women, the biggest of course is science.

I do not see any offensive point in all this.

I think that it's rather narrow minded to group all women under one idea. My mother is the head of her own law firm. She makes a great deal of money, runs her company firmly, and has a great deal of success. your statement that she would have to be a cold hearted woman to do this is entirely in the wrong. She loves my children, and is very affectionate with them.

When I was in high school, I learned kick boxing with my then-boyfriend. I was very good at it, and could beat him most of the time. As part of our workout, we did lift weights. I was also on the track team, and won most of my short distance sprints.

My husband is one of the sweetest people in the world, and is very sensitive. In fact, I make all of the financial and business desicions in the house, because he "thinks with his emotions".

I can't dance, I look like a stick when I do, but my brother is one of the most graceful people I've ever seen. And if you think that men can't dance, I challenge you to go to a ballet, and really watch the male dancers.

I would be making the same errors of judgement that you have, if I was to say that men are all testosterone loaded beasts, incapable of intellectual thought. Throughout history women have been placed in a secondary role, mainly because we have the ability to give birth. But that ability does not mean that we all have mush for brains. Just because we can become mothers does not mean that's all we are good for! I have seen plenty of women who have children, but no "maternal instinct". My husband and my brother's all have very strong "maternal instincts" when it comes to children! Often they are MORE protective than I would be!

We are not asking that our society be converted to "all women" we want EQUAL opportunities in the government. I think that an all male run society is just as hampered as an all female society. Only when the two sexes work together do you find true balance.

A world run by intellect with no emotion of any kind...I just read a book about World War II. Seems to me that was how Hitler planned to run the world.

AINTD, you are correct in saying that men and women are different. We most certainly have different physical body parts. It is unfair to shove everyone..men and women alike into a box that does been proven time and again that does not fit everyone. Some women are large and agressive and some men are frail and emotional. People are far too complex for the rigid lines you set.

Now you mention that you feel things are going along smoothly. Funny that you should feel that way when women partially run the governments of many major countries. I think we are far less likely today to make rash judgements.

You point out that history does not offer many noteable women. I believe that the cause for this is opinions like your own. Women were not allowed to do many of the things we are all free to do today. Do you think history books really want to print stories about the mother who nursed her dying child, the woman who made sacrificies so her children had clothing and an education. History books are centered on inventions, discoveries, and wars...things women were barred from. The few who did were truly memorable because they had to battle a society to get where they were.

Now let's focus on those emotions that women have. Men operate from them as well. It is often more excuseable when it is labeled adrenaline, agression, arrogance, pride,loyalty or passion. A woman's tears are ridiculed while men's emotions emotions are given respect and honorable badges.

You say you wish not to offend or disrespect yet you believe in and encourage undervaluing women. Men and women can rejoice in their differences and come together in a unified effort..be it for marriage, in the work force or for their governments when opinions like yours are dead and buried in the past where they belong.

OK, this is a kind of hate thread now and I'm in its center.

// To Jessica, Art History & Mythology:

I'm afraid my english is not good enough, but according to my modest knowledge, "law firm" is the place for lawyers and lawyers' speciality is to know the law and to know how to interpret it, not how to make one. The fact that a woman can make a big deal of money is irrelevant, I never said she could not. By BIG business, I meant other level of companies. Levels at which people kill, betray, spy and do anything to keep on going. I strongly believe, that place is not for normal women such as your mother. So, no contradiction here.

This is a good one. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Kick boxing seems to me a bit diffrent from boxing. Boxing is where people usually end up lying in a pool of blood and die at 50 years. Women do all sorts of martial arts fighting, don't they? - Have nothing against that. Were you lifting 200kg at college? If not, then I meant the other "weigthlifting", where people break bones and tear all inside of them. Not nice nor good for women to be here.

I'm not saying that men are insensitive. They can be more sensitive that women. I'm saying that they know when they should and not be sensitive. Women usually are sensitive by nature without control. Besides, it is known from long ago that there are exceptions from any rule, which only confirm this rule.

Maybe a little bit bad example about artistic gymnastics. Anyway, it has misslead you to a false conclusion. Artistic gymnastics is when girls frow all kind of objects into the air, bend themselves beyonf the point of imagination and all that kind of things. They do that, men don't. It's just not for the sport for men. This sport would really look good if men were in it. That was the point. I do enjoy watching ice-skating, so, please, don't think that the idea of a man dancing is alien to me.

I haven't said that if women are extremely good at one thing (giving birth), they must be absolutely bad in all other aspects, that is be stupid, did I? You're really mixing up the facts. Men can be sensitive and men can love children, in fact, they usually do as much as mothers.

Another missinterpretation is that no women should be in the government, ofcourse they should. They should be doing what is true to their nature. And I have mentioned quite a few areas, haven't I? But to see a woman as minister of defense (or whatever this position is called in USA) ... or as minister of foreign affairs, that's just not good for the country and for all other women too.

Last but not least ... your reply was overfilled with emotions from my point of view. You just prefer to put yourself in an offensive stance than trully listen to the points I've mentioned.

Once again, no offence meant. I consider this to be dialogue ... a debate if you wish. Not small-scale war.

// To Terrie_Bittner:

I really hope the book you were reading is not by an American author, if not, it was a waste of time.

About cars...my husband's approach is to just pick what looks good if he sees something that attracts him. I prefer to research for weeks in advance of going on a pricing spree then researching what we found then selecting the best option for us.

My husband turned over the researching for our last vehicle to me since he does not enjoy reading car reviews or having long discussions about them. We are satisfied with our two door Jeep Cherokee Sport. I think we should updgrade to a newer 4 door in a year or two though.

XLadyRogue, good approach from you. Car is not a box of chocolates you buy, eat and throw away, or throw away without eating if you don't like it. Buying a car is substantial investment which if approached not seriously enough can lead to problems and disappointment.

I do enjoy reading cars reviews and tests from time to time, even if no upcoming purchase is on my mind. It's just interesting to me.

The good-looking car is important. I believe that NO matter how good the car is on technical side, it should not be bought if it is plain ugly.

Why do you like the off-roaders so much? Do you really go THAT often to a country side? I mean, in USA there lots and lots of huge cars on high base (often the GM products <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

To AINTD:

Fancy gymnastics and the like have men as well as women participating in the US.

As for barring women from big business because many women may not be able to handle corporate espionage, the US tends to frown on spying and killing in the business world. I don't think the majority of US executives exchange their suits and ties for the assasin's garb on Friday nights.

To AINTD:

There were several reasons why I thought a Jeep or something similar would be best for us:

We have a friend who has been trained to work on certain types of vehicles. We trust him to do work on our vehicles and he only charges us for parts. My husband does work on his computer or sattelite television equipment in trade. We wanted to get something our friend is able to work on easily.

The vehicle had to be both a family one and be functional for work. A car would have been cheaper than a Jeep but my husband could not get his tools into a car and his ladders would not have fit well on top. We did consider pick-up trucks but I really detest trucks and the Jeep I found was at a better price than any of the trucks. It has also surprised us by being better on fuel useage than we expected.

The US has a large variety of land types. We live in a country like area close to the coast. That means we are wet and muddy. From my front door,I look up at the road! My husband has to be able to get out of our yard even on rainy days and sometimes he is working in areas as bad as our yard and even worse.

Finally, Jeeps are nice looking vehicles. I prefer the older box style though. I belive they stopped making those in the mid 90's, ahh well.

XLadyRogue, haven't noticed your reply regarding the delicate issue at first.

Starting from the end of it, I really do not mean disrespect or offense to women. And I do not underestimate their abilities. Life would be complete ... well, you know what ... without women.

Of course things are going along MORE or LESS smoothly, since everyone minds his/her own business. Put a woman in charge of Pentagon and a man in charge of (let see ... what men can really be bad at ...) ... let's say a finance minister in charge of underprivileged teens problem. And you'll get the things wrong.

As I said ... there are exception from each rule which only CONFIRM the existence of this very rule.

As for the lack of historic point-outs of women' courage ... people can't really write books on everything, can they. History books are dedicated to major scale important events. So, it's just the way things are in this department. Not many women who did something really important. If there was some sort of science studying "individual acts of courage" ... not from the point of view of importance to all the world, but from the point of view of an outstanding personality of some person, then of course there woulf be many women there.

Emotions ... careful here ... I never said that women' tears are bad. Not at all. I'm talking about uncontrolled bursts of anger which is more true to a woman's nature that it is to a man's. Women can be really cruel ... a lot more than men. Really cruel and very smart (in a bad sence of word, not intelligent but with predators' instincts) ... yet, this woman will look as a normal one to anyone. Watch any movie (produced in Hollywood by the way) and in 90% of cases, all the big problems arise because of women ... So, it's not reasonable, to put a woman in control of something real "big" ... There are many masculine a**ho*** ... but they are visible to an eye ... you can almost always predict them ... Men, usually are just not capable of uncontrollabe bursts of anger or eny other emotion. I have said many words ... I do not know whether they have delivered the point I meant.

I see ... USA is trully big and yes, an off-roader is an appropriate choice. It kinf of funny to see a guy here driving an off-roader, while there is no real need for it. You can hardly find a place where only an off-roader would pass. Here, Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee are fairly popular. Some Ford models as well. Plenty of Japanese off-roaders.

yes I am emotional when someone expresses an opinion that could lead to women being oppressed. I am not ashamed of my emotions.

What makes you think that "espionage" is only on the corporate level? First of all, my mother's office is one that deals with handling the problems that arise from "corporate america". She is right in the middle of trying to repair the damage that most of her clients have done to themselves! (and yes, I am refering to both male and female clients)

And gymnastics being only for women? I take it you have never seen cirque de solei. ( lots of male gymnasts)

I do find this attitude offensive, only because you have given no real reason why women should be banned from positions of authority, only archaic stereotypes! I have listened to your position, I considered your points, and I am not agreeing with it. Sorry, give me a real reason, and I'll be more than happy to consider it, but claiming that a person is not capable of filling a business office because of their sex is ridiculous! That's like me saying that men only think with their groin, and therefore are unsuited to making any real decisions.

Phew! now that I've said my shpiell.. anyone know of a reliable van that has good gas mileage? I need one to transport my booth ( I thought about a truck, but it's just not tall enough, and I have lots of loose papers). We thought about getting a caravan, but I heard that they've been having tranie problems.

To AINTD:

You have implied that women's emotions are a negative thing while saying that men's emotions are acceptable. I am not sure where you are but in my experience, men are as likely to have emotional outbursts as women.

For an example, I know of far more men who seek anger managment help than women. Based on this, I could ask, which would you prefer...a man who might loose his temper and become destructive making governmental decisions or a woman who might cry with compassion or when hurt?

I would hope that anyone, be it man or woman who is in charge of a nation's fate would be a self disciplined individual.

To AINTD:

You have implied that women's emotions are a negative thing while saying that men's emotions are acceptable. I am not sure where you are but in my experience, men are as likely to have emotional outbursts as women.

For an example, I know of far more men who seek anger managment help than women. Based on this, I could ask, which would you prefer...a man who might loose his temper and become destructive making governmental decisions or a woman who might cry with compassion or when hurt?

I would hope that anyone, be it man or woman who is in charge of a nation's fate would be a self disciplined individual.

Jesus ... I guess I'm starting to loose my temper as well ... Are you reading only every second word I posted? The word "gymnastics" went along with the word "artistic". I don't know the Cirque de Solei, sorry, the best circus is Russian, and they do have plenty of male gymnasts. But EVEN when they do something artistic in pair with a woman, it is the WOMAN who would bend and fly and do all those things, while it is the MAN who will support her. I'm not saying that it's the sex that determines the acceptability of a person in an office, it is the sex that determines the nature of a person.

I have also said that women' tears are not to be ashamed of. I said that true women' reaction of anger and similar emotions are far more dangerous. A woman will not cry when hurt, at least the one that is in politics or large scale business, she will deeply hate the one who did it to her, and won't miss the chance to take revenge.

You're just speaking as a true woman "No, no, no, you're just absolutely wrong! A woman is a soft creature, she may cry but she is far less offensive than a man." And we all know HOW women can HATE each other, don't we? Now, transfer this hate to the governmental level. Women are capable of much more destructive emotions than men and you'll lie if you say "No they are not!".

I'm not saying emotions are bad, I'm saying that a person with these emotions should not be given too much power. And the way the things are, there are only very few women overall in governments and they occupy the less dangerous posts, those I've mentioned. This is just natural.

You know what? - I'm somehow sure, if we were talking right now looking into the eyes, and if you had some kind of power over me, you would use it the most devastating way. Sorry, but that's the impression you gave me. If you were a police officer of some kind, you'd send me to jail for "discriminating propaganda" or something alike. You cannot ahold of yourself and you still think it is right to have women occupying the key posts?

Does anyone of you watch the movies made in your own country by your own citizens? I certainly do. Haven't you ever noticed what women are capable of? And it's not the invention of the author, you can't invent something without ever seeing it. There is no smoke without fire.

The very fact that you wish not to admit that women' emotions can be uncontrolable (comparing to men') says it all.

Now, having read all this, you'd say what a ******************** (whatever goes in there) ... and am still saying that women are just great, without them the world would be destroyed. They do keep things running but on different level. Why is it that you want into government so badly? Is it hurting the self-esteem? Well, it should not! You role is as important as men', you want to be in the government? You want to contol people? I don't understand it. Nobody is disriminating you, you're not a slave, you're paid for the job you do, you have the same rights to live, walk, breathe and whatever as men. In the end, things are self controled, and there is no tension in the world regarding this issue. That means, that generally, everyone's happy, but when someone mentions that there are such places where women should not be, then of course you wind up.

I do not consider myself smart ... it's the other way round in fact ... I must be a real idiot having brought up this topic ... in a forum created by women. I was very naive, I guess. My apologies.

I have only seen previews of Cirque de Solei, you will have to ask whoever posted about it for more info. I assume that she was saying the same thing I was, men sometimes do the same moves as the women in any form of gymnastics here in the US and I assume there are other countries.

I never said that women's emotions were controllable. Women are no less and no more in control than men. Perhaps you should try watching more action flicks or sports if you wish to see men in their emotional stages. Then compare those and see if men truly have the advantage.

You tell me to get a hold of myself yet I have not lost control. To me this is an important discussion because I see issues all the time arising from issues based on gender differences.

" you have the same rights to live, walk, breathe and whatever as men." This has been my point to you all along. Many of your words do suggest it should be otherwise. Many men would not stand for someone suggesting they were inferior or should not be allowed to be involved in poloitics or business, why should a woman stand for it?

Hey AINTD, you sound like a really cute, fiesty, young guy. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's clear from your conversation that you are not married. And I suggest, if you ever do get married, you may shortly have to change your tune about women - that is if you want to stay married. So you may want to listen and learn a thing or two from the ladies in this forum.

I'm wondering how you ever managed to be so behind the times in relation to women. Don't you realize that we won the right to vote in the U.S. in 1920? :rolleyes: Therefore, it doesn't much matter what you think we should or shouldn't be doing, because we're just going to go ahead and do what we want anyway!

Maybe you're too young to have noticed all of the changes that have taken place in all aspects of society over the years, but I've seen rapid movement in just the past 20 to 30 years, on the part of women. Especially when you consider the fact that 80 years ago we weren't even allowed to own property. Wow! Have things ever changed!

Back in what you might have considered the good old days, women were controlled by men's brute force (those bone breaking, flesh tearing weight lifters you speak of), but, Honey Pie, those days are gone forever!!! And there's not a darned thing you can do about it, so you might as well learn to accept it, or I predict a very unhappy future for you. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Women's lack of past fame for noteworthy accomplishments (not counting all of the unacknowledged power behind the throne) is totally understandable. We had no control over our bodies, our children or any property. Besides, it was men who were writting all of the history books.

It's true that men and women are physically different.(I won't ask you for details about that observation.) <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Men have a higher degree of muscle and are physically stronger. Now that made a huge difference in the days of the Vikings. But you know what? It doesn't matter any more!

What counts these days are smarts. So, for the first time in our existence, women and men are on an equal footing. And, boy have we moved forward at a rapid pace in just 80 years. It's a great and exciting time to be a women!

But then you may not think I'm a "real woman" <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> since I drive a Land Crusher (Cruiser in some circles) and I also lift weights. (I must digress here and say that, from a health standpoint, it's not too smart for a man or a woman to practice bone breaking, flesh tearing weight lifting.) However, like I said earlier, it doesn't much matter what you think (or what planet you or I are from).

Just look around you, AINTD. Women are infiltrating every single part of what used to be exclusively a man's world. (I remember the day my father's men's club opened up to women.) <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, move over, Sweet Boy, her come the "girls." And, we will do whatever we damn well please - whether you like it or not! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

P.S. Thanks, Jessica, for the invitation to play. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

well, not the nicest of remarks, but I just have to add that my husband just said he's glad that there is "at least one man stupider than he is." Oh, and he "hopes and prays that you do NOT have children". <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Okay, one more thing then I'm gonna stop... You say that an author can't invent something that they've never seen... I hate to prove you wrong (again) but I am an artist, and I spend 90% of my time inventing things that I haven't seen. Sorry, that arguement does not fly. By the way, have you ever seen a man in a jelous (sorry about the spelling) rage who kills his wife? Or the man who killed a 6 year old baby, simply because he was ANGRY that his ex-wife was moving on with her life? Both sexes are capable of atrocities. Don't just claim that women are.

So many replies from all grown up people ... I'm actually honored.

First thing is first ... I do have girl-friend and a steady relationship for over than 2 years. In many arguments that do arise, she is the first to loose her temper and only later she'd say "OK, I admit, I wasn't quite right. I guess I overreacted.", but at the moment of discussion she'd be just like all of you. And we get along quite happily, without any tensions.

You also must have some serious lack of self-esteem if you wish to infiltrate every single area which before was a "man-only" ... I would really like to see the person (be that man or woman) who has introduced the female weightlifting.

This stance "Men apart! Women are coming!" is not really friendly and sane, is it? And yes, I have noticed that women have taken over some previously unallowed positions. That is not really the point of the discussion. I'm at no point said that the way the things were ... say a century ago, were good and fair. You're extracting way more from my words than there really is in them. I say "1" and you'll say "2, 3 and 4", not very nice way of having a discussion.

That hubby remark ... he may still consider himself the stupides on earth in his own weight class, since he's older, I'm not going to take that away from him.

And you know what ... I now see things the other way round ... if 100 years ago it were men who had been oppressing women, now it's the opposite. Whatever you say or do, a woman can always say "Oh, you're a macho! You don't like and respect women! What a bad person you are! Shame on you! I hope you'll never have children!". We see a lot of families in which husbands are like door mats, always under the heel of a woman (I wonder if it's your case ... very developed in USA judging from the movies) ... Is that right?

I do not need to prove anything since everything I've said, has already been proved by the current world situation. There are no women where they should not be (with rare exceptions).

To the artist girl - NO YOU CAN NOT invent something completely new. It was Platon I think who demonstrated it. You can either invent something directly deriving from a seen object. Or, you can invent something indirectly, which doesn't exist, but which will be formed by existing things. I think his example was the one of "New Jerusalem" ... a place that did not exist, but he imagined it as a place with marble columns, golden walls and things alike. You see ... "marble" ... "columns" ... "walls" ... "gold" ... These things do exist. Take our beloved FF game for example. It is obvious that they wanted to make a fantasy world, but they cannot make something really unseen and new. They just can't. It still has plenty of elements from the real world. So, do not tell me, that you're inventing each and every day something new. You'd be world wide famous if it was true.

I do not know whether you read what you write. But your attitude is rather hostile. I have exacty the same right to say whatever pleases me as you do, but somehow I avoid making personal remarks. Women will never be as men and men will never be as women. The physical differences are the very minor ones that exist in between the two. You know which adjective can be applied to many women ... once again judging from the movies ... "evil". Men rarely are evil ... they may be dumb, weak, arrogant even cruel, but not evil. Only god knows what may happen in a woman's heart when she sees that her best friend has something new and better than she has ... on this one I do have experience.

One more thing ... men always forgive women ... and they would say "Of course honey, you're right.", in order to keep the peace, because it is women who are easily inflamable.

As for the history ... we can't really debate on that, can we? ... I have plenty of facts of men' achievements, and a bunch of women'. There were quite a few female talented governers in the past. Take Spain or Russia as an example. This doesn't really matter, we're not discussing the merits of both genders.

To sum it all up a bit. I'll dearly love my future wife (no matter what you, all kind women, say), treat her with respect and never limit her liberty. I'm actually pretty sure that it will be her who'll be managing the money and expences. I also do have respect for all other women. But I will not change my posture, that there is no place in certain areas for ordinary women (ordinary means: the usual spirit, bad temper control, etc.).

To AINTD yet again:

Your comment, "Men, usually are just not capable of uncontrollabe bursts of anger or eny other emotion." stood out as most ridiculous. What facts do you have to come to this conclusion? Men are as emotional as women as I said before. You seem to excuse the emotions of men though.

Facts that lend proof that men are no better at handling emotions:

"Women are five times more likely than men to be victims of intimate partner violence.." According to reported incidents more men than women loose control and abuse their partners.
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Ladies, I guess it is the right point to end this stupid discussion and for me to shut up. You haven't understood anything I said and I haven't understood anything you said. That just shows how different we are. I may be wrong in not trusting women, but way too many examples which support this posture. You must be completely cynic if you say that men and women are psychologically and emotioanlly equal (and that comes out of your words unless I'm missing something important). So, believe whatever you want to believe and let me do the same. My deepsest opologies to all involved and any who might have got offended.

(The "facts" you've mentioned in the last reply by the way, only confirmed that you do not understand what I'm talking about ...)

Though I have been wished the "never will be married" and the "never will have children" and predicted a "sad end" and even have in been proclaimed the most stupid man on earth, I wish all of you to be good mothers and good wives. I would still insist on staying away from politics, but you wouldn't listen to, would you ...

Who was wrong and who was right ...
That shall we know in near sight ...
There is not much to tell ...
Be good, be well and farewell ...

(Lame, I know ... whatever ...)

You're so right, AINTD. It's time to agree to disagree. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You were very brave to have stuck with us for so long. Thank you.

It's always a tough conversation when neither side is the least bit interested in changing their position <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> - which was the case here. You never can tell, maybe we all got some unknown value out of the time we spent discussing this issue.

One last thing. I would like to point out that dating <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and being married <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> are two entirely different ballgames. Hopefully you and your future spouse will be more committed to listening to each other and working towards a mutual understanding than you and we were in this forum. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best of luck and thanks again. You're a good sport and we appreciate your time, your passionate point of view and your poetry.

AINTD, we have hundreds of women as representatives, governors, and senators in the United States. England has had women running their government for centuries. If we just stick with this one particular thought of yours, that a female is somehow "bad" in government, then obviously you have not had much experience *with* government. Women rate just as well as men do in all areas of government according to any poll we can look at. In fact, their ability to negotiate well makes them in some cases BETTER suited for proper government than a man might be, if we follow your logic about how men and women are.

If you are incapable of allowing a female to govern YOU, that is an issue that you need to work through. But it is not an issue that most adult humans have any difficulty with.

If you have a girlfriend that gets emotional, that is your personal choice. Do not assume that all or even most women are like your girlfriend.

So my red SL500 was a typical girls car? I saw plentiy of men with car lust as I drove it.

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Katrinae, Today I am newbie & it's nice to see other "family" around. We are crafts wymon & I agree with you about the artist. We do "spat" at times but that's under pressure because we both procrastinate a lot BUT then it's over & life goes one. We have a very high respect for each other. White Wolf {Keri}

Hi Jaguar Dreams, personally we like a truck {pcke up} because we live in the country. hauls stuff to the dump,materials when we were building our studio & has 4WD so we don't get "stuck". Jeeps are fun for sue but I think trucks are more practically in the country White Wolf

I love cars! My favorite is a 1968 SS Camaro. Black. Sigh. My best friend just bought one of those new Mach 1's...man....I got to even send her a card to congratulate her. Can you believe they make them? Really cool site at Hipster Cards-- check it out. Super funny.

Different cars for men vs. women...hmmmm, I think I'll leave that one alone. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

with oil prices soaring what good is buying a new car? I might as well find a webdate and ride in his car. hahaha!

I've got a lovely truck.

I haven't really.

I was reading this forum and came across this. I know it was written in 2002 but WOW, I had to comment. Is it offending me? Slightly. I drive a sports car and yes I know how to fix it. I'm a security officer, aspiring correction officer and criminal justice student. A big sports fan(OSU Football YAY). I work out and my sister is a bodybuilder. I'm a fantastic poker and pool player. Most of all, I'm girly......I like doing my hair, make-up, dressing up. I like the arts and all the other "girl" things this person is assuming girls or women should like.
Guess what, my boyfriend barely knows how to change his tire. He plays sports but loves Phantom of the Opera. He likes to dance and sing.
I'm not offended but more annoyed with the fact that some women have the same mentality as some chauvinistic men. I'll admit I have a mind set that the woman is the homemaker and I love to cook and clean blah blah blah but I can like changing my oil, mowing my lawn, and screaming at the TV when the pass is intercepted.

You go Fierogurl

I'll be attending the Los Angeles Auto Show in a few weeks as media and I will let you know what i saw.
Last year, there was a car that came with L Vitton Luggage!

Cars are rubbish, noisy, smelly, and a menace.

if anyone is looking to buy or sell used cars, check out www.madnonnie.com