I am an ex-Catholic and a practising Buddhist, which is why I picked this forum upon which to post this article...
Although I now flloow a Buddhist Path, I still have ties with the Catholic religion (through relatives) and feel a 'connection' of sorts, having been so greatly influenced in my formative years....
Would you all be so kind as to read it, and give me a considered opinion of how you feel reading it?

I didn't write this, by the way....and I really amm just trying to gain an objective and constructive POV....

What's your gut reaction....?

"Share the Dharma with Christians

The Christian worldview is so vastly different from the Buddhist path that even a basic concept like dependent origination is foreign to Christians. But it�s possible to reach out to Christians with the Buddha's valuable teachings if you do so in ways they�ll understand and appreciate.

Here is how you can share your faith with Christians:

* Build meaningful friendships.
Invest the time and energy necessary to develop genuine friendships with Christians you know. Get to know them well. Let go of the time-pressured, task-oriented Western culture�s philosophy and seek to enjoy your time with Christians without hurrying or feeling as if you have to accomplish something while you�re together. Become a person who your Christian friends trust.

* Help with practical needs.
Work either as an individual or with others in your sangha to help meet the needs of people in your local Christian community. Ask those in the community what they need and try to meet those needs, rather than simply offering something without first checking to see if it�s what they truly have no attachment to. Consider starting or supporting programs to help with childcare, job training, English language skills, or anything else that�s needed. Allow your Christian friends to help you, too, and express your appreciation to them.

* Invite them to celebrate a holiday with you.
Include your Christian friends when you celebrate Hanamatsuri, Ho-On-Ko or another holiday. Use that experience to explain why the holiday is important to you and how it relates to the Dharma.

* Learn as much as you can about Christianity before sharing Buddhism.
Educate yourself on at least the basics of what Christians believe � and why � before attempting to engage them in discussions of spiritual issues. Know that it�s crucial to understand where they�re coming from before explaining your own views. Be humble. Remember that we are all only trying to end suffering in our own ways and that you are fortunate to have found the Buddha's teachings before them.

* Tell stories.
Realize that Christians don�t relate to logical discussions of principles nearly as well as they do to stories that illustrate those concepts. Instead of simply explaining spiritual laws, let your conversations about each other�s lives naturally lead you to discuss spiritual issues. Understand that Christians tend to value religion primarily for what it can do for them rather than whether or not it�s true. Don�t debate truths; instead, talk about how the Dharma has helped you and how it can do the same for them. But be careful not to make Buddha seem like a shaman who must be obeyed blindly; discuss the importance of putting the teachings to practice for yourself and how doing so naturally leads to a better life. Share stories from your own life that convey how your experience of the Dharma has benefited you. Listen as your Christian friends share stories from their lives and help them understand how experiencing Dharma at work in their lives can transform them. Rather than trying to prove to them that the Dharma is true, try to demonstrate who Buddha is as you talk with them.

* Don�t assume any prior knowledge of the Sutras.
Understand that you may likely have to start from scratch when discussing Buddhist ideas, since Christians often have a very different perspective on the same issues. (For example, Buddhists see prayer as a useful tool for mindfulness, but Christians view prayer as repeating mystic phrases handed down from time immemorial.) Be sure to clearly explain what you mean when you talk about Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Listen carefully to what your Christian friends have to say and try to learn as much as you can about their spiritual views. Avoid using Buddhist jargon or clich�s. When you sense an interest in a particular topic, ask your Christian friends if they would like to see what the Sutras have to say about it. If you earn the right to study the Sutras with any of your Christian friends, consider covering topics such as: suffering, compassion, and karma and Impermanence. Introduce scriptural passages that Christians can relate best to first, such as the Heart Sutra, The Diamond Sutra, The Lotus Sutra and the Dhammapadda. Avoid passages that can disturb and confuse Christians (such as accounts of compassion from the Sigalovada Sutra) until they have a basic understanding of the Sutras and genuinely want to read more. Since Christians are used to memorizing lists (such as the ten plagues of egypt, the offerings of Leviticus, the seven seals, or the ten commandments), introduce them to the Four Noble truths, the eightfold path, and the six paramitas.

* Understand objections.
Be prepared to discuss common objections that Christians have to Buddhism. If your Christian friends think that Buddhism and Christianity are just different paths to the same goal, explain that all the world�s religions represent people�s best efforts to reach happiness by different paths, but there is only one religion that begins with the underlying nature of suffering - Impermanence - and explains how to live with it and die with it � Buddhism, the religion of the Awakened One, the Tathagata, Sakyamuni Buddha. Understand that Christians are seriously offended by the idea of compassion, which occurs in some sutras. As you discuss this issue, be sure to show them scriptural passages that mention Buddha�s explanation of this and explain that selfishness is so seriously evil that in Old times it required some serious prostrations. If your Christian friends think it�s too easy to achieve happiness for free as a gift and people should earn their salvation instead, let them know that if faith and practice is genuine, it will reveal itself in acts of compassion toward others. Explain that following the dharma involves an inward change that is just as challenging as making enough merit to get into heaven. Help them understand that believing in the dharma means: recognizing that they aren�t leading a morally perfect life and are ensnared by self, giving up living their own way and starting to live according to mindfulness through attention, and practicing the dharma, which leads to transformed lives. If your Christian friends object that Buddhism is a foreign religion for caucasians, explain that Buddha taught for the good of everyone, the sutras were written mainly by caucasians, and many of the cultural practices of Buddhism are current in places like New England today.

* Be culturally sensitive.
Know that, to truly reach Christian people, you need to present the Buddha's message in ways to which they can relate. Show respect for their cultural values, such as a simple lifestyle and the importance of community. Use worship styles that resonate with Christians, such as representing scriptural truths in artistic form (as they do in Stained Glass windows). Avoid proselytizing through entertainment, since doing so could lead Christians to believe that Buddhism is superficial. Use personal means of proselytizing through relationships, instead of impersonal means. Use symbols to convey dharma concepts. Know that Christians respond best to formal worship styles that include rituals. Involve all ages in sitting rather than just catering to youth, and foster intergenerational friendships. Show reverence for the Dharma in all you do.

* Be patient.
Give your Christian friends all the time they need to come to grips with unfamiliar concepts before they can fully understand the Dharma. Just meet them at their points of need and work with them without rushing the process. Show compassion to them often and trust the Dharma to work, drawing them to enlightenment at the right time and in the right ways."


Thanks for persevering! I await your comments with interest!

This is an interesting set of suggestions to "share your faith." Like many such tomes (of any faith), it contains a bit of religious superiority which will most likely not get you very far with someone who does not fit into the narrow mold that the suggestions have put Christians in. One example would be the notation on prayer, while another denies the Christian ability for logical discourse. While there are undoubtedly those who fall into those categories, there are just as undoubtedly those who do not. A one size fits all approach, IMHO, will not work.

In Christianity we have a verse that admonishes the believer to "watch your life and doctrine closely, and if you persevere in them, you will save both yourself and your hearers." There appears to be a lot of truth in setting an example.

Thank you so much, Sylvia, I appreciate your input. I shall wait a whil longer, to see if others respond, before coming back with a more comprehensive response.... Bless you for your thoughts though.

I like it but it reads kind of like a "What to do when you are in an intervention with a christian"

I have the same Catholic background and it's caused A LOT of strife with my family, almost daily. I was told by my mother than I shouldnt have more children because none of us are going to heaven. With people like that no amount of sharing helps and in my experience is more detrimental.

Meg

Well, in actual fact, I think I should come clean:

The above text I published, also carried this foreword:

"Editor's Note: The following is a 'reversal' phrasing of an article written by Whitney Hopler on the practical applications of M. Tsering's new book, Jesus in a New Age, Dalai Lama World (Defending and Sharing Christ with Buddhists), (Interserve USA, 2007)."

Because this - in full - is the original, unadulterated article:


"Share Your Faith with Buddhists

Whitney Hopler
Crosswalk.com Contributing Writer

Editor's Note: The following is a report on the practical applications of M. Tsering's new book, Jesus in a New Age, Dalai Lama World (Defending and Sharing Christ with Buddhists), (Interserve USA, 2007).

The Buddhist worldview is so vastly different from the Christian faith that even a basic concept like a loving God who interacts with people is foreign to Buddhists. But it�s possible to reach out to Buddhists with Christ�s good news if you do so in ways they�ll understand and appreciate.

Here�s how you can share your faith with Buddhists:

* Build meaningful friendships. Invest the time and energy necessary to develop genuine friendships with Buddhists you know. Get to know them well. Let go of the time-pressured, task-oriented Western culture�s philosophy and seek to enjoy your time with Buddhists without hurrying or feeling as if you have to accomplish something while you�re together. Become a person who your Buddhist friends trust.

* Help with practical needs. Work either as an individual or with others in your church to help meet the needs of people in your local Buddhist community. Ask those in the community what they need and try to meet those needs, rather than simply offering something without first checking to see if it�s what they truly desire. Consider starting or supporting programs to help with childcare, job training, English language skills, or anything else that�s needed. Allow your Buddhist friends to help you, too, and express your appreciation to them.

* Invite them to celebrate a holiday with you. Include your Buddhist friends when you celebrate Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, or another holiday with a meal, party, or other special event. Use that experience to explain why the holiday is important to you and how it relates to your faith.

* Learn as much as you can about Buddhism before sharing Christianity. Educate yourself on at least the basics of what Buddhists believe � and why � before attempting to engage them in discussions of spiritual issues. Know that it�s crucial to understand where they�re coming from before explaining your own views. Be humble. Remember that God loves them as much as He does you and that it�s only His grace that has enabled you to come to faith before them.

* Tell stories. Realize that Buddhists don�t relate to logical discussions of principles as they do to stories that illustrate those concepts.Instead of simply explaining spiritual laws, let your conversations about each other�s lives naturally lead you to discuss spiritual issues. Understand that Buddhists tend to value religion primarily for what it can do for them rather than whether or not it�s true. Don�t debate truths; instead, talk about how Christ has helped you and how He can do the same for them. But be careful not to make Christ seem like a shaman who can be manipulated; discuss the importance of obeying Him and how doing so naturally leads to a better life. Share stories from your own life that convey how your experience of faith has benefited you. Listen as your Buddhist friends share stories from their lives and help them understand how experiencing Christ at work in their lives can transform them. Rather than trying to prove to them that the Gospel is true, try to demonstrate who Christ is as you talk with them.

* Don�t assume any prior knowledge of biblical concepts. Understand that you may likely have to start from scratch when discussing Christian ideas, since Buddhists often have a very different perspective on the same issues. (For example, Christians see prayer as communication between God the Father and His children, but Buddhists view prayer as repeating mystic phrases handed down from time immemorial.) Be sure to clearly explain what you mean when you talk about God, prayer, the Trinity, salvation, heaven, and sin. Listen carefully to what your Buddhist friends have to say and try to learn as much as you can about their spiritual views. Avoid using Christian jargon or clich�s. When you sense an interest in a particular topic, ask your Buddhist friends if they would like to see what the Bible has to say about it. If you earn the right to study the Bible with any of your Buddhist friends, consider covering topics such as: suffering, forgiveness, and karma and Christ�s death. Introduce biblical passages that Buddhists can relate best to first, such as the stories of creation in Genesis, Christ�s parables in the New Testament, or the mystical elements in the Gospel of John. Avoid passages that can disturb and confuse Buddhists (such as accounts of animal sacrifices from the Old Testament) until they have a basic understanding of the Bible and genuinely want to read more. Since Buddhists are used to memorizing lists (such as the four relations of speech, the eight acts of low-born persons, and the ten faults), introduce them to the Ten Commandments, the nine beatitudes, or the nine fruits of the Spirit.

* Understand objections. Be prepared to discuss common objections that Buddhists have to Christianity. If your Buddhist friends think that Buddhism and Christianity are just different paths to the same goal, explain that all the world�s religions represent people�s best efforts to reach heaven by different paths, but there is only one religion that begins in heaven and comes down to people � Christianity, the religion of the One who came down from heaven, Jesus Christ. Understand that Buddhists are seriously offended by the idea of killing animals, which occurs in some Bible stories. As you discuss this issue, be sure to show them biblical passages that mention God�s care for His creatures (such as the story of Noah�s Ark) and explain that sin is so seriously evil that in Old Testament times it required a serious sacrifice. Mention the passage in Isaiah that shows that animals won�t harm each other in Christ�s new kingdom. Know that Buddhists can be alienated by how openly displays His emotions in the Bible, since they�re uncomfortable with strong displays of emotion. Explain the difference between God�s emotions and human emotions, such as the difference between people�s sinful anger and God�s righteous condemnation of sin, or the difference between people�s petty jealousy and God�s concern for the honor of His name. If your Buddhist friends think it�s too easy to receive salvation for free as a gift and people should earn their salvation instead, let them know that if faith is genuine, it will reveal itself in acts of love toward others. Explain that following Christ involves an inward change that is just as challenging as making enough merit to have a better rebirth the next time around. Help them count the cost of faith and understand that believing in Christ means: recognizing that they haven�t led a morally perfect life and are ensnared by sin, giving up living their own way and starting to live according to God�s way through repentance, and trusting Christ for salvation, which leads to transformed lives. If your Buddhist friends object that Christianity is a foreign religion for Asians, explain that Christ came to Earth for everyone, the Bible was written mainly by Asians, and many of the cultural practices of New Testament times are still current in places like Inner Asia today.

* Be culturally sensitive. Know that, to truly reach Buddhist people, you need to present the Gospel message in ways to which they can relate. Show respect for their cultural values, such as a simple lifestyle and the importance of community. Use worship styles that resonate with Buddhists, such as representing biblical truths in artistic form (as they do in thangkas). Avoid evangelizing through entertainment, since doing so could lead Buddhists to believe that Christianity is superficial. Use personal means of evangelizing through relationships, instead of impersonal means (like distributing tracts). In worship, use symbols to convey faith concepts. Know that Buddhists respond best to formal worship styles that include rituals. Involve all ages in worship rather than just catering to youth, and foster intergenerational friendships. Show reverence for God in all you do.

* Be patient. Give your Buddhist friends all the time they need to come to grips with unfamiliar concepts before they can fully understand the Gospel message. Just meet them at their points of need and work with them without rushing the process. Pray for them often and trust the Holy Spirit to work, drawing them to God at the right time and in the right ways.

This is where you can find the original article....

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It is not surprising that you can easily find literature that teaches how to spread Christianity, after all, that is one of the major tenets of the faith and anyone who claims to be a Christian must obey the command given by Christ before he ascended to take his place with the Father. While I am not sure who the "fundamental extremists" are you reference, anyone who shares any faith from a position of religious superiority with anything but humility is not sharing a faith, but instead propagating a man-made god who most likely was shaped in the sharer's own image.

How eloquent you are...! There have been a couple of "exti-fundies" on this forum,(not many, I'm happy to say) but - with all credit to them - pertinent moderators have dealt with them appropriately. I tend to get a bit defensive at times, with the proselytising and 'We're right, you're wrong' attitude they insist on adopting - but it occasionally has the negative effect of getting my dander up!

And I'm inclined to agree with you wholeheartedly, on your last point.

I am a Christian fundamentalist.

Welcome. care to share?

What do you want to know? Ask. I'll answer.

How you would feel if a Buddhist were trying to converty YOU fom Christianity to Buddhism.

I would not be bothered. I would take it as a God-given opportunity to witness to them about Christ.

You'd be wasting your breath.....

Many buddhists have been converted already. We're working on the rest.

We are not what we think. Thinking you are God, Satan, or a rock star does not make it so. Reality is separate from thought or Hitler would have been dead early on.

You do not understand the quotation fully.
Thought manifests as deed. Whatever we choose to do, we have to think about it first; Nobody ever acts without any pre-emptive thought going into the action.
We consider the action as a mental process, then decide to act upon it or not.
I have never thought I am God, because that would be pointless. I have never thought of being Satan, because that would be equally pointless. Hitler thought about what he did, before he did it. Hence all that he was, arose from his thoughts.
Now do you understand?

Yes, I agree with you on that level. But I do not do all of my thoughts. All action begins with thought but not all thought results in action. So, it would be more accurate to say that we are what we do.

When I was reading the converted text (how a Buddhist should approach a Christian), I kept thinking this is alot like Christianity! A central tenet is sharing the gospel in a humble, quiet way that doesn't create arguments or barriers.

I was also surprised to think that Buddhists try and "convert" people - I thought they were more just flowing with their lives and welcoming of all people, but not necessarily trying to actively share their beliefs.

I did feel like it was a little false -- that it labelled Christians in particular ways and encouraged Buddhists to strike friendships only for the sake of converting people.

When I read it the other way around, I found it to be a great analogy, and made me see how others see Christians! Of course, not all Christians build relationships strictly to convert people - that's a stereotype.

Very interesting article!

No exactly, that's my point.
You have a thought.
"I am going to kill that woman, I hate her so much."

So what do you do?
You kill her.
That is a clear and open manifestation of who you are. You are capable of murder, and have turned your thought into action.

You have a thought.
"I am going to kill that woman, I hate her so much."

So what do you do?
You don't kill her.
You know it would be a terribly nasty thing to do, and that is also an open manifestation of who you are. A law-abiding person who knows what is skillful, and what is un-skillful.
So you don't kill her, but you still don't like her, and avoid speaking or connecting with her as much as possible.

Both what you think and act upon, and think and don't act upon, manifest who you are.

To a degree but not necessarily to that degree. Everyone does things that are wrong from time to time. A good example would be lying. Everyone has lied. The temptation comes to our thoughts and sometimes we succomb to it.We should not but we are all weak in some areas and strong in others. The other thing from your example is that it is wrong to hate. If you do not hate, you do not consider murder. Jesus equates hatred with murder in your heart. He equates lust with adultery in your heart. He says both are sins. It is a very high standard.

exactly. If you have hatred in your heart, where do you think it first manifests?
In your mind.
You can't 'feel' hatred in your heart, without first thinking about it.
The hate you have in your heart will manifest to demonstrate who you are. You can outwardly seem to be a good, law-abiding person, but if you do not clear the hate from your heart - and by consequence, Mind, then sooner or later, the truth will out.

in order to lie, you have to think about the lie first.



so if you lie, you have formed a personification of the kind of person you are. A liar.

if you do not lie, you have formed a personification of the kind of person you are.
Someone who can resist temptation.

It all starts in the Mind, with what we tell ourselves.
THEN it goes to the word, or then the Action.

Jesus only set standards he, as a human, could attain himself.
If he can do it, so can we. That's partly why (Christians believe) God manifested in Human form. To set an example to Fellow Men.
The only thing that sets us apart from him, is that we can't control our thoughts to the extent he could, and we should.

What is in your heart is the personification of who you are. What you choose to carry over from your mind to your heart determines that. Many things go through our minds, some good, some bad. If we get control of our thoughts then our mind becomes the guardian of our heart. If we lose control of our thoughts then evil can slip into our hearts and corrupt us. This is a gradual process.The mind is the battlefield for the heart. If we give credibility to all our thoughts then we do what the Bible calls, " giving ourselves over to a reprobate mind" and our heart becomes a stronghold of evil. We must, therefore, get control of our minds for spiritual safety's sake but ,ultimately, we are judged by the content of our hearts.

...yes, which has been governed, or guarded principally, initially and primarily by the Mind. As you say.

The Mind rules the Heart, not the other way round. And so it also is physically.... We can exist with a mechanical heart, or with artificial circulation, but not ever, without the Mind.
Therefore, although the heart has been seen metaphorically as the seat of this emotion (and any other, for that matter) the true, principal initial governor, is the Mind.
it's not your heart, or what's in it, that governs what or who you are, it's your Mind.

You can only control your thoughts, by thinking about them, with your Mind, not through any action of the heart!

We are judged by our actions, not by what is in our hearts. And all actions commence by thinking about doing them first.
Really, the heart at this moment, is a red herring....

The heart, as the essence of who we are, governs our actions. The mind is our rational thought. Our emotions are the expression of our heart but not the sum of it. Our heart is the culmination of our truly held beliefs, attitude, and our will. The mind plays an influential role on our hearts but ultimately it is our heart that rules us and determnes our destiny.

A heart is a mechanical pump, a muscle that pumps blood through the body, nothing more, nothing less.

I am speaking in the spirit, you are hearing in the carnal. Your spiritual heart. Your physical heart is in the center of your chest symbolizing the spiritual center of your being as your heart.

And just where might that spiritual 'heart' be? Maybe in your brain, where everything else that allows you to think is?

Is there an "expert" on this site that we can ask questions?

Expert in what? I am a Ph.D in philosophy of religion. Might that do?

But wait a minute. You don't really want an expert. You want someone who agrees with you, right?

And many Christans have obviously been converted to Buddhism.

Since this is a Catholic forum, and I am a Catholic Charismatic priest, I feel compelled to reply.

The best approach, in my opinion, is to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and not try to convert people who are already comfortable and settled into a faith. The unchurched, of course, are fair game.

There is much I admire about Buddism and would feel presumptuous trying to convert or revert one to Christianity.

Father Daniel

Father Daniel,
Jesus said to go out and make disciples of ALL the world. Not SOME of it by our picking and choosing. So, I think I'll take Jesus' Word over yours if you don't mind.

Father Daniel, LL wants an expert who agrees with her/him, not a church official, nor an academic. Let's don't waste words, either of us.

Thanks for a voice of reason.

As long as I agree with Christ is all that matters.

and what of the remainder of the bible? or are you picking and choosing?

I agree with all of it. I choose all of it.

Don't be silly.
Every single word?
unconditionally?

So if God said in the Old Testament that his followers should be vengeful and destroy unbelievers, But Jesus says turn the other cheek....

Which one you gonna go for, hmm? HMMM?

The Old Testament verses you refer to were for a specific set of people for a specific set of time. Jesus's reference to turning the other cheek was not meant for violent assault but for offense. He said "If someone smites you on your RIGHT cheek" He specified the "right" cheek because that means being slapped ( an insult) with the persons "left" hand. That was the hand that in Jesus' day ( and still to this day) in middle eastern culture was considered " unclean" because it was used for toilet duties. What Jesus was referring to was offense, not a potentally lethal assault. Read the passage in context and you will see.
As for the OLD Testament, judgement was different. Jesus changed the nature of judgement and sacrifice in the New Covenant.

Hmmmm...In other words, he moved the Goalposts....?

That's not what I asked.
if you say that you accept every word of the Bible, you are accepting contradictions. Both from 'God', alledgedly.
You can't really do that, unless you give up all sense of human choice and reason, and follow God - Automaton-style..... can you?

So now you're citing Arab Cultures....something practised earnestly by Moslems and other religions, but not by Christians, because if we are perfect in the eyes of God and created in His image, then no part of us is 'unclean'....
That's the first time this has been propounded in this way to me, by a Christian....
very odd, I haven't come across this explanation in all my Catholic days..... !

But there are. I have just pointed them out to you....

The ones you agreed I was referring to in your post above.....

Now I'm getting one of my headaches....!!

As an aside, it's six pm here now, and I have to go home. I'll pick this one up and run with it tomorrow, ok?

....You know what?
It's not important.
The contradictions probably relate more to the different interpretations and understandings of those responsible for the original writings, and I don't think I have the right to take what might be interpreted as the 'moral High-Ground' and ask you to explain, justify or clarify text and scripture from the most important book and teaching in your life. It's rude, unfair and argumentative, and I would prefer to desist from metaphorically placing your back against the wall.
I don't have any doubt that you would be able to answer any of my points.
I just don't see why you should have to.

I'm sure you don't, and as I said, I have no doubt you would rise up to it admirably.
But the whole point of giving - and accepting - a challenge, is that it would advance the situation, resolve matters and provide a new platform from which to proceed.
To my mind, my presenting you with this challenge would be merely argumentative, and would ultimately resolve little, because it may just be a question of semantics, authorship, perspective and perception.

The origin of this thread was to obtain the perspective and impression of Christians, were they to be faced by a Buddhist seeking to gently steer them away from christianity and towards Buddhism.
The entire exercise would be academic, because as I have explained, whilst Christians are encouraged to proselytise, Buddhists are actively discouraged from doing so....
I was merely, I suppose, attempting to illustrate the 'How would you feel' factor...

It's possible though, as you and I seem to be in this particular "room" on our own, that the main topic has run its course....
Tea?

Hang on....

I have just realised where I am.
I made a promise some time ago to the Bible Basics Moderator that I would treat her forum with respect. She requested (even in her forum rules) that she did not wish to see arguments or contradictions to the bible arising here, and requested that the book not be challenged or disputed. All well and good....

I promised her I would evaluate my words and discussions accordingly.

What I am about to say is purely as a comment, it's not intended to be defamatory or argumentative.

A great many threads in the Christianity and Bible Basics forum are either started by, or greatly contributed to, by Non-Christians (be they atheist, agnostic or of another following) and this is how discussion is generated. That's essentially what a forum is for. Discussion, verbal engagement and debate. Without these kinds of exchanges, discussion and debate on a forum whittles away to nothing. if everyone on a forum is of a like mind, then the conversation very quickly degenerates and dwindles away to nothing....

I would be very happy to transfer this discussion to the Buddhist forum, but there's a catch: Those wishing to continue this discussion would have to be as informed and cognisant of Buddhist doctrine as I am of the Christian Bible.

And that's where the problem arises.

The Buddhist forum is not much frequented by such discussions, because it seems to me (and this is only my perception - inform me if you think I am mistaken) many Christians either shy away from learning more about Buddhism, or prefer not to, intent instead, on just receiving all of their religious and sopiritual knowledge and instruction, from one source.

But the Buddhist doctrine thrives on discussion and debate. Buddhism refuses to rely on faith or belief, prefering instead to recommend that all teachings - notwithstanding their origin or provenance - be subjected to the highest and most detailed scrutiny possible. so in Buddhism, it's not a case of have faith - it's a question of find indisputable proof and enhance your knowledge....

I would be pleased to open up a new thread in Buddhism to continue the above discussion, but only as long as those engaging in this discussion would be able to appraise the discussion as much from a Buddhist perspective as from a Christian one.

The same rules of respect, rudeness, courtesy, insults, poor language, politeness, etc..apply on the Buddhist forum, as much as they do on any other forum. It's a question of acceptable constructive and positive social interaction - it has nothing to do with a person's belief or faith, religion or dogma.....

But I will create a 'transfer' thread to the |Buddhist forum now, and hopefully continue this discussion there.

I am also posting this message on other Bible basics/Christian threads, where my participation has entailed lively discussion on theological matters.....

I agree! I am Christian and I dont agree with shoving my beliefs down someones throat either. I went to church today and the Paster (yes I liked the man and no Im not Catholic...but...)I made the comment that kids today dont care where there parents draw the line or where the school draws the line or even the church.... They want to know where God Draws the line. He went on to say if we make Christianity all about the church manual and money and pitty things that dont really matter the church will die because this generation doesnt care about the pity things of this world. they dont want to hear there going to hell and your going to hell if you dont do this or that little pity thing they want to know Who is God? and What can we do to Stop the violent and the horror that goes on daily in this life. They want to Know that God is bigger then the pity junk in every church manual. they want to know that in the end it never really mattered to God what church membership we held or what name Good Christian tittle we made for ourselves...what mattered the most to God is that we stopped the fighting over stupid things and believed God is REAL and that we did our best to love others as God loved us and that we stop using God to fight and harm others.

It was the best sermon I have ever heard and the church is looking for a new preacher and this paster is filling in until then. he is really ordained and everything but he teaches at the prison.

I am impressed!!! I had given up on finding a good church and you know this was at the church that i grow up in and loved as a child. It is very small and very few are there now but I felt more peace there today then I have felt in a very long time! Maybe I wont give up on the church after all!

Merry Christmas everyone!