Do you think minority and women are
being treated fairly in business? Read this artice to find out more...
Women Treated Fairly in Business?

You must be kidding, right? There is no such thing as fairness in life and much less in business. The right is not the one who's right but the one who has more rights. Everyone is equal in this world, but some are "equaler". The one who's stronger rules as he/she sees it fit.

Yes, I do think that minorities and women do not get the same opportunities in business. Since when the weaker get the same opportunities as the stronger? OK, this is very unpopular discussion type since it goes right into feminism, machismo and racism issues.

I find it interesting that you say the stronger tends to win over the weaker, so obviously this applies to women and minorities. So you feel in most jobs that women are weaker then men? And this applies to jobs in programming and business ... how? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember Madame Curie? She won the Nobel Prize *twice* (the first person ever to do so) in the early 1900s. She did so from her laboratory in France. The reason she ended up in France is that in Poland, she was NOT ALLOWED to study because women were NOT ALLOWED to attend college.

That has nothing to do with being weak. It has to do with the college making rules that have nothing to do with anything other than an incorrect misconception, never proven, never tested. She wasn't even allowed to TRY.

There are several questions in your post.

One by one, Marie Curie indeed was a remarkable female scientist, though she definitely was NOT like "any woman you can pick out of the crowd", as I have said before, there are exceptions from any rule that only confirm it.

As for women' capabilities ... there are very bright women and really stupid men. But I really cannot think of a job that a normal or even bright woman could do better than a normal or a bright man.

I'm not saying that women are worthless and please, don't get offended or something.

You complain that minorities and women are not treated fairly in business ... banks do not give out loans like they do to white men ... you must also understand, that a bank has no money of its own, all the money is from the clients who worked hard to put it in there. They think twice before entrusting a sum of money to someone. And there is nothing strange that minorities and women tend to fall into a not very trust worthy category. If in the process some very bright women with excellent ideas get hurt by not getting a loan for some reason, bad luck ... these are exceptions ...

Men are stronger than women since it is for them to decide whether to employ or not, give a loan or not, since it is them who are mostly incharge. This is not good nor bad, it's just the way it is. A historical fact. It is natural for those who have strength to use it.

You say But I really cannot think of a job that a normal or even bright woman could do better than a normal or a bright man.

I agree with 'better than'. Women are not better than men. But women are just as *capable* as men are. Men are not better than women. So if you had a bright man with a degree in civil engineering, and a bright woman with a degree in civil engineering, and they were both working on bridges, then both bridges would come out quite nicely. There would be no reason to hire a not-bright man just because he's male. But that's what's happened in the past. The bridge project ends up suffering, so it makes no sense. It didn't help the company any ...

You also say:

there is nothing strange that minorities and women tend to fall into a not very trust worthy category.

Excuse me? If you look at statistics, let's take women drivers, they are MUCH safer than men drivers, statistically, so if anything, women are a SAFER risk in many situations. Insurance companies give women a *discount* for being female. Because they know they will be scrutinized even more strongly than a male would be, women often are far more cautious about taking risks.

Why would you make such a statement?

I'm having trouble finding statistics on the percentage of men vs women that declare bankruptcy. In my experience, men will declare bankruptcy and just start over again. Women will stick at it and work through their credit problems, maybe because it was harder for them to get credit in the first place and therefore is more valuable to them. In any case, I did find an Austrian credit firm:

http://members.aon.at/grohs-asb/english/fakten_2.htm

that says

Bankruptcies in 2001:
average age: 41
3,021 new bankruptcy cases
67% male, 33% female

So that says to me that females are the better credit risk, because men are twice as likely to default on the loans if the going gets tough.

Must be USA with that "driving" thing. It is widely aknowledged here and in Europe basically, that female drivers are real bad. Not slightly worse than male, but REAL bad. That is in general.

There are plenty of reasons for that. On the road, I haven't seen any woman driving a car and I would think "Cooool, she drives great!" ... there would always be something wrong ... There are plenty of bad male drivers, but not to the degree of 99.9% as with women.

As for bridges: women do not tend to dedicate themselves to the jobs which require technical abilities. History, art, law, economics (to a certain degree) is more preferable. You can see that by looking the statistics in universities. So, any type of engineering is more male oriented than equal, just statistics. That doesn't really matter, just a precision.

As for defaults ... I really haven't investigated the matter. I hardly know any solid company with female founder. There might be some, but few. Businesmen risk more, that's true. It's a closed circle: those who never risk, rarely succeed, but women can not risk because of the situation they are in. They don't become bankrupt, nor do they succeed much - small to medium companies are typical.

As for abilities, itellectual capacity, etc ... hard to judge. There many stupid people ... I guess it would have to come down to some kind of statistical study to get this kind of conclusion.

I doubt it's a US thing with driving. I suppose I will look for insurance statistics in other countries, but it's pretty much a standard for anywhere I've investigated. I think your perception may be more that you see a bad driver and if it's male you just yell at them. But if you see it's a female you think, "Darn women drivers!!" so it sticks in your mind.

If you don't know any solid company with a female founder, maybe you just don't know many companies <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You might be surprised how many companies out there that you know and respect were founded by females. There were female millionaires back in the 1800s that founded companies. Maybe they're just not as egotistical and attention-grabbing as their male counterparts <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I'll investigate the driving statistics.

It is true, I didn't just dedicate to studying the business thing, that's a bit to far from my field. I'm talking about proportions. Name me some of great female founded companies, myabe I'll be surprised. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for driving - yep, you're right. I see a car that behaves oddly and then I overtake it and see a woman - the reaction is the one you mentioned. If it is a male, there also is a reaction, but different. But, it is more often on the road for female drivers to go berserk. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is a story. A guy bought a new Lamborghini (in USA) and was driving it on the highway. Then, a lady on a huge (certainly GM) truck went over his rear wing. "I didn't see him!", "That car is so low!" ... could only happen to a lady. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for statistics ... a guy may hit the wall and cause an accident, but that could have happened because of a girl going on the wrong side of the road and that hasn't even noticed anything. In statistics there will be figuring that guy but not the girl. Women do not avoid accidents, they make them. Men have to dodge and avoid the situations sometimes making accidents. I haven't seen any wise female driver, it's always me who has to brake, urgentle steer to a side, those kind of things ... they simply go on ... statistics is a bad thing. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's a report from an International team, indicating it's done in Canada at least, and implying it's done everywhere. Didn't they ask you if you were male or female when you got your car insurance? Aren't your rates different than that of your girlfriend?

The statistics show that males cause/are in more accidents than females, and teenagers cause/are in more accidents than middle aged people. So usually rates are super high for young males, reasonable for middle aged males and so on.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/publications/health/page57.html

In some jurisdictions, males are charged higher rates for car insurance than females, a price differential based solely on gender. Males do -- on average -- impose higher costs on insurers, so the question of discrimination in pricing is not an entirely straightforward one.

Royal Insurance of Canada -

http://www.royalsunalliance.ca/royalsun/sections/auto_insurance/rates/default.asp?ShowSection1=1

Age - Statistics have shown that drivers under the age of 25 are generally less experienced and more likely to become involved in an accident than drivers over 25 years. Your insurance premium is designed to reflect likelihood of you getting into an accident and experiencing a loss.

Gender - Statistics have shown that male drivers under 25 years pose a greater risk of getting involved in an accident than a female of the same age and therefore generally pays more for his insurance premiums.

New Zealand Rates:

http://www.autopoint.co.nz/reviews/reviewstory.asp?ID=1609

You. Your age, gender, marital status, driving record, and record of prior claims play a major role in determining your risk level. Traditionally, sub-25-year-old single men represent the highest risk, while married, middle-aged, non-smoking mothers represent the lowest.

Police are trained at how to evaluate accidents. There is no way that every country in the world that I've tracked down has MUCH higher male accident rates and that somehow they were all mysteriously caused by women, and the police never noticed. I know several people who work in the insurance agency that have investigated accidents. They say the margin that males are in accidents (many are single car where the guy was drinking or just a bad driver or screwing around with male friends) is MUCH MUCH higher than the rates that females get into accidents.

Would you also claim that it's incorrect that young guys cause more accidents than older men? Or does your statistics-lie argument only apply to women?

I admit I'm impressed how you will hold opinions in the face of all proof, without offering anything supporting your own opinion besides jokes <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Another report on age and gender:

http://free-automobile-insurance-quotes.com/rates.php

Age

Typically drivers under age 25 have more accidents than older drivers, so they pay higher premiums. Drivers between 50 and 65 years of age usually have the lowest accident rates and typically pay the lowest premiums.

Gender

Men under the age of 25 are involved in more accidents than women under the age of 25 and have more than three times as many fatal accidents. Therefore, young men incur higher premiums than young women do.

A 300% increase cannot be caused by "mysterious never mentioned females" ... especially since a lot of these accidents occur without ANY OTHER CAR BEING PRESENT. Unless now we're talking about ghost cars <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, on guarde! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The quotes you mentioned are not the ones desribing the topic. I was not talking about accidents, I was talking about how bad a woman drives and how bad a man drives. In vast majority of cases women' skills are a lot lower. The thing that males drink while driving, try to show off by breaking rules, that's different. I'm talking about normal males and normal females.

I agree that the older a person is - the less is the chance of a crash ... up to certain point of course ... try puting a 90 year old grandpa behind the wheel of truck ... GTAIII scenario at its best.

Also, women are noticed a lot more often in some weird situations only they could get into. Like parking a car so bad that it's a problem for everyone. Like being slow on traffic light (no automatic transmission here), etc ...

It just the way they behave on the road and not the accidents makes me say that women are bad drivers. Don't ask men about it since they wouldn't tell you the truth. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The fact that male drivers have to pay more for insurance than female ... shouldn't we start a "Are men treated fairly?" topic instead? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There is no way you can convince me because of the simple reason: I can see things for myself and I see too many idiotic behavior on the road on part of women to think that it is normal and in reality, female drivers are actually a lot better and even better than male.