Atheists: Are you an inductive atheist (one who simply doesn't believe in "god" as described by the world's religions) or a deductive atheist (one who thinks that the very idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, personal creator is absurd)? How did you come to this conclusion? Has your attitude hardened or softened through the years?

Agnostics: Do you doubt the existence of one particular god (the one associated with the faith you were brought up with), or with the notion of a god in general? Or do you believe there is a "god" but he/she/it is impossible to know?

Theists: Do you believe in one very specific god as described by a specific faith, or do you believe in a more pantheistic or "generic" god whose name and description varies from culture to culture? If you believe in a "personal" god, do you attribute human qualities to him or her? Do you view these attributes as literal or metaphorical?

Hi Ali,

I just saw your intriguing question on the list of recent posts. I fit into the theist category, with a God whose name may vary, but whose basic nature is similar in most "positive" religions (ie. faiths who have "love one another" as a basic tennet). I also believe that all creation, people, etc. have something in them that comes of God or can point us in His/Her direction. Coming from a Christian background, I believe that one of the ways God has reached out to us is by becoming a human being, and thus I see this as one way we can understand Him. But that there is so much more to Him we don't understand as well ... like trying to explain what vision is to someone who is blind, or what it is like to hear to someone who is deaf - we just don't currently have the capacities to see or understand that. (well maybe some people do, but not me!)

My Mom is more agnostic, or possibly leaning to the side of there is a God but not really being sure what that God is like ... my Dad is agnostic, tending to the side that God does not exist. They are two of the most wonderful, loving and ethical people I know - proof to me that you do NOT need to be a person of faith to live a good life. It also makes it very hard for me to believe that God would condemn a good person to hell forever because they didn't believe the right thing, when they have been a force for good in the world.

I hope you don't mind me popping in on your forum?

Andie

Athiest here just because that's how I was raised.

Theist-- Christian with Wiccan tendencies. I know Jesus Christ as my personal god, but also believe that there is a Goddess who would be his consort... possibly Mary Magdalene but not certain on that. Also believe in a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother to Jesus and all Spirits. So... I guess that would mean that Jesus & consort took on human forms, while HF & HM have not although I do believe that we were made in their image. How's that for an answer? Confusing for some, but it's me in a nutshell:)

I believe in God. God who created Heaven and Earth. God who is part of the Holy Trinity with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I believe God has human tendencies such as feelings because He gave them to us. Jesus wept and Jesus got angry. God felt hurt and betrayed when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of and Good and Evil.

He has to have some human qualities as we were created in His image.

Of course, that is just my belief. Others may have different beliefs.

Thanks to all for responding. I always find it interesting how much subtle variation there is in people's beliefs, even among Christians, and yet how we all pretty much agree on one central premise: to treat others with kindness and respect!

I fit both of the categories above in ways. I am a male, 39 years old, married to my wife, also an athiest, 47 years old.

My mother was raised Catholic, my father Presbyterian. They constantly fought over religious upbringing over their 3 kids (me being the oldest son, with two younger daughters).

At the age of 7, I wanted to go to a small church (I don't remember what the name was), but the one message in the few months I went there was one thing: God hates you, because you are a sinner. If you transgress in any way, he knows what you do, and he will push you to hellfire for the slightest thing. That image of "God is hate" and "God is punishment" stuck with me.

I started to become very scientific-minded and intellectual. By the time I was 8, I was pulled from this one church, and the entire family went to a Lutheran church. During this time when I was not going to any church, my parents fought many times about what religion us kids should be brought up in. During this time, I dug into anything scientific/fact based (geology, weather, mathematics) but nothing that was not based in "fact" -- literature, writing, music...nothing like that. I deduced logically that Santa Claus could not exist because for him to visit 100 million homes (in 8 hours (nighttime) would result in him spending about 1/1000th of a second in visitation time -- impossible).

Upon this backdrop, my famly attended the Lutheran church that met in the local courthouse building when I was 8. Because we (as a family) did not have membership in a previous church, we had to be "baptized" in front of everyone else. I got the seashell of water on my head. I have never felt so embarassed in my life. I felt the shame, the "get me the **** out of here NOW" feeling. Not a good way to start out. Did I tell anyone about this? No! A kid doesn't talk back to his parents that way, especially when they are hauling you into church every Sunday.

In the Sunday school there, I started to ask questions. "Why is that?" "Where is the proof?" Everything else I studied (for FUN) had a logical reason behind it -- but things I was being told from the bible, DIDN'T! The answers at first were "Just believe -- you'll see the answers." Then, I did "try" to believe, but nothing happened. Then I asked again. Then I was told, point blank, in front of the other kids there "Just shut up!!!". I have hazy memories of asking the other kids if they believed in what was being "taught" to them. They didn't, but they acted like they did, because they were being forced by their parents to go.

My belief in God was that "God hates you because you are a sinner no matter what you do" attitude, but I started to look for proof. I did pray, but just to answer one simple question: Is there a God? I went through the littany of memorizing the creedos, the songs, the whatevers. I went through the confirmation classes -- blah blah blah. All this time, I was actually closing my eyes and praying, hoping to see "SOMETHING" that would just provide proof to my satisfaction. I got none in the 5 years from the ages of 8 through 13. Then when I was in the front row, and finally took Communion for the first time, I was hoping that I would feel SOMETHING.

Nada. Nothing. Zippo.

At that point, I offically became an athiest. If I saw no proof of this invisible being, I stopped believing it. I just became another religious robot that coulnd't wait until I had a choice to go or not go. Soonly afterwards, the new church building that the Lutheran church was building was finished. The first time we went in that first Sunday, I felt ill walking in there. Something in the pit of my stomach said "This place is EVIL." I was not the only one in my family that felt that. It was everyone! We stopped attending there and went to a Presbyterian church close by after that.

Same thing: Rote memorization, saying the things you had to say, etc etc. Then at the age of late 16s, I was given the choice to not go to church. I said no. My sisters said no as well, I think. Thusly, we didn't go to church, nor talk about it, ever again.

I never thought about religion in any way, shape, or form until such time as I started to date online and was sure that anyone I wanted to be with would have to be a) a non-believer/athiest, b) have no desire for children and c) have a fairly laid-back lifestyle and d) be intelligent.

My change of attitude towards theists? I never had a good friend who was a believer in god until I met my future wife on aol in the chatrooms. Not my wife to be -- she was definitely athiest. But another woman that I met online, with whom I shared, and still do share, a good friendship to this very day, is a pure, devoted, "living the Christian lifestyle" Christian woman. She and I ended up talking about such discussions about why we believe or not -- and that reinforced my POVs, because I didn't understand her POV AT ALL. I couldn't wrap my mind around it. Eventually we agreed to disagree and be friends without delving into deep religious arguments. With me, I eventually married my wife.

During those times, this Christan woman friend was in a very bad marriage. I helped guide her out of that marriage, into living singly, supporting her until she eventually found a good Christian man for her. So I've stuck by her when she needed a friend, even though we totally disagreed on religion. Good thing, because no one else stood by her in her times of need. In any case, there is a VERY strong friendship between me and her. Both us, and them, as a couple, are good friends that we see when we visit each other twice a year. I live in Virginia, and both my wife, and my friend live in Michigan -- different sides of the state.

My belief (or non-belief from the theist POV) has grown more anti-god as time has gone by. However, I really am caring towards others. The people I hate mostly are the hypocrites, when it comes to religion.

Yes, the hypocrites. The people who only come on Christmas and Easter. The ones that attend regularly, but by their actions out of the church, just go because it is a social hangout. The ones that say they believe in god and all that good stuff, yet act SO "un-Christian" when out of the eyes of the church peoples. Unfortunately, from my experiences in church, a lot of people are that way -- not true believers, not living the life and the word of the bible.

I may disagree with my Christian woman's lifestyle and deep beliefs, but one thing I do know: What she says she believes, she lives, day in, day out. I respect that -- I really, truly do. I really don't like it (feeling pitied, because you know that is what they do believe when it comes to us athiests), but they do what they say they do.

I live the way I say, and do in my belief in no invisible being. Therefore, I am honest with myself. People may not like me for that (luckily, I don't open up to everyone I work with about such things, with friends, etc) but I am honest in my belief structure.

Deep down inside, I still feel a twinge of that "God hates me" attitude. However it is not my ruling force in my belief -- my overriding belief is that I see no proof that there is an invisible being controlling my and other people's destinies. Every day, that belief just grows. That intellectual stand has been ruling my life since I was 13 -- and gets more intense every day. At times in the past, I COULD have been called a militant athiest, but I have learned to just let "sleeping dogs lie" and accept other people's beliefs.

It is hard to do, really. Just in the recent past few months, have I come to an internal understanding as to acceptance of others. It is almost a "surrender" to the fact that no matter what you say to a theist, they will NEVER see things your way and stop believing what they do. Conversely, no matter how many times a theist tries to tell me that I am damned and going to hell for not believing, nothing they say will ever change my mind, because they can't show me in the direction of this hell, or this heaven, or whatever. I'm not going to change.

That's my story. Some details left out for good reason, but overall, that is how I turned out to be an athiest, who doesn't care about the concepts of heaven, or hell, or offending a god anymore. Those small remnants of the "god that hates" keep up my athiest belief beaues such a god, if it really existed, isn't worth my time or trouble to even worry about.

Duane

I was at on time an inductive atheist. Back in the day of attending Sunday school and not being able to reconcile the dinosaurs living 65 million years ago with the 10,00 year old Earth. Thats when I was 12; now I am definitely a deductive atheist as I can find no evidence or any other reason but blind faith to believe in a supernatural, and I don't use blind faith in any other area of my life so I cannot use it here.

Duane, your story is interesting, and shows that horrible dark side of religion, and particularly fundamentalism. (Seems the fundies are so much more focused on the bad, and not the good!) I have often said that if all those people who profess to be Christians ACTED in the positive manner that they should, the world would be a much nicer place.

A born again former co-worker of my mother (who knew my mom is agnostic), once told her, "You're more Christian than some Christians I know." Uh -- kindness shouldn't be a matter of religion, imo.

I always wondered what my belief system would be if I had been raised in a traditional religion. I was raised agnostic, essentially, so just can't fathom the ol' "taking it on faith" bit.

So I muddle along with my agnostic view that I don't know, and barring said diety/dieties coming and SHOWING me he/she/itself, I can't ever say I will know. (And even then, I might think it an extra-dimensional or far more advanced being rather than supernatural.) And it doesn't make a difference in my daily life -- my moral compass doesn't require an external "parent" who will reward or punish me based on my behavior.

Kind of like Santa -- there's a real base for the legend, but the stuff built up around it is fantasy. I dunno. I often feel like an anthropologist when I see evidence of people who truly believe -- like on Easter, when they say, "Oh, isn't it wonderful?!" and I just think -- you REALLY believe someone rose from the dead, in the flesh, etc.? I can handle little kids believing in the magical Santa a whole lot better -- but maybe because, when I was young, I believed in the magical Santa, too.

A born again former co-worker of my mother (who knew my mom is agnostic), once told her, "You're more Christian than some Christians I know." Uh -- kindness shouldn't be a matter of religion, imo.

Very strange you should mention that. My Christian woman friend (C) has said the EXACT SAME THING to me in the past! My totally unselfish kindness (towards her and others) isn't from a divine being, but from my upbringing by my parents, before I was officially "churched." I don't like to really say this, but calling me a Christian because of my kindness is an insult, because that lumps me in with the believers. I understand that it is meant to be a compliment, but deep inside me it hurts me a bit. I get over it


I always wondered what my belief system would be if I had been raised in a traditional religion. I was raised agnostic, essentially, so just can't fathom the ol' "taking it on faith" bit.

You should consider yourself lucky. During the formative years, what you are told about such things sticks with you. If you are born into a Fundie Baptist family, you learn that. It may take a lifetime to try to overcome that (and it has, in the case of my friend C) but you never really do. Those first beliefs, like first impressions, stay with you your entire life.



So I muddle along with my agnostic view that I don't know, and barring said diety/dieties coming and SHOWING me he/she/itself, I can't ever say I will know. (And even then, I might think it an extra-dimensional or far more advanced being rather than supernatural.)

Not knowing is perfectly fine. I've had the thought, when I was trying to come to terms with my belief, that even if "Jesus Christ" appeared to me (you know, in the long robe, long hair, bearded appearance that is attributed to what he supposedly looked like) and we had a one on one talk, I STILL would not believe in god, the father and the holy spirit. My logical mind would still think "This is some dream, or advanced creature/life form/technological trick"


And it doesn't make a difference in my daily life -- my moral compass doesn't require an external "parent" who will reward or punish me based on my behavior.

Absolutely!!! I am one of the kindest, caring, helpful people around. And I do not need to feel that I need to bow down to worship an invisible being to keep those good feelings and desires inside me. My moral compass is straight and true in a good direction as it is. It just doesn't point in the direction of worshiping an invisible being.



I often feel like an anthropologist when I see evidence of people who truly believe -- like on Easter, when they say, "Oh, isn't it wonderful?!" and I just think -- you REALLY believe someone rose from the dead, in the flesh, etc.?

Yep -- one thing that I don't understand about Christianity is that "he was raised from the dead" aspect. Just seems a bit too .. "convenient" for my tastes. And that "he was crucified and was risen to take away all of my sins" belief is ultimately the basis for all of what Christians believe in. My friend C said that ultimately John 3:16 is her basis for her belief ("For god so loved the world that he gave is only son..."). I can't believe that in a logical frame of mind. That is our difference.



I can handle little kids believing in the magical Santa a whole lot better -- but maybe because, when I was young, I believed in the magical Santa, too.

I believed in the "magical" Santa and Easter bunny when I was way younger too. However, I grew out of that mystical belief when I learned the truth (either through being told about it, or figuring it out myself). IMO, I place the belief that Christians have in the same general boat -- they haven't grown out of it.

Are you sure you aren't a long-lost sister of mine?

Wow, Duane. Your story is amazing. I never had the oppressive religions upbringing that you do, but I definitely relate to some of your feelings about religious hypocrisy and to all your conclusions about the irrationality of religion.

Skeptic raises a good point, as well, about how some otherwise rational people manage to simply "turn off their brain" when it comes to religion. The way they somehow manage to accept all other conclusions arrived at via the scientific method, but not evolution, befuddles me.

>Are you sure you aren't a long-lost sister of mine?

Mom never told me about you.... ;-)

Wow, Duane. Your story is amazing. I never had the oppressive religions upbringing that you do, but I definitely relate to some of your feelings about religious hypocrisy and to all your conclusions about the irrationality of religion.

You should consider yourself lucky. I've never had a positive result/feeling from religion ever in my life. Others have had positive influences that turned negative for whatever reason. People have faith because they are taught that good things happen because of it. I saw none of it -- ultimately, why I feel the way I feel today, 33 years after my religious journey started.

Re: the hypocrites, I see their actions because I am not blinded by perceived beliefs or attitudes -- I see their actions in the mindset of "cause and effect", and make observations based on that. I did back then when I attended church, and do that now. Yes, I admit that there are good people who are Christians, but I've seen enough people that made the same claim that soiled my viewpoint. But that is just me.

Skeptic raises a good point, as well, about how some otherwise rational people manage to simply "turn off their brain" when it comes to religion. The way they somehow manage to accept all other conclusions arrived at via the scientific method, but not evolution, befuddles me.

Evolution vs "creationism"/"Intelligent design": My thoughts on this could fill a book, but here is my "Readers Digest" version:

The creation story reads like "Humpty Dumpty": Written for people with the mentality of a 5 year old -- yet this is story is taken literally by too many people, IMHO.

Evolution: Put a million monkeys in front of a million typewriters and let them type away at random and you'll get a lot of junk. What is junk gets discarded. What is successful survives the weeding out process. Given a few billion years, something will be produced that can reproduce, and change. Those that change for the good survive, those that change for the worse, don't. Yes, evolution is not perfect, but it makes more sense than what the creationists/ID people espouse. I don't believe in the "god in the gaps" argument -- where there is scientific logic to justify something, that is scientific. But where there is doubt, "God did it" -- god in the gaps. Things "in the gaps" are just times wherein we don't yet understand what is going on. There's no guarantee that we will know what is going on -- but we have the ability to investigate and try to figure it out.

Overall, people who as you say, "somehow manage to accept all other conclusions arrived at via the scientific method, but not evolution," seem to me as if they are giving up. The analogy I like to use is something that we're using right now -- world-wide communications. I type on this electronic thing called a computer, and in a blink of an eye, I can send a message, or voice, my own image, to someone half way around the world, without even THINKING as to the whys and wherefores -- IF I WANT TO. But, because IT is my career that I love, I can tell you, down to the littlest bits, every little path that this data travels, until it ends up at its destination. I have an understanding that others do not, because I choose to be more "advanced" than many other people in this area. If you were to show this thing called "The Internet" to someone who grew up in the mid 1800's, and they would say "God must have done it! I can't comprehend it, it seems like magic, so God must have done it!" Evolution has a similiar path. Those who want to take the simple, easy path say "God must have done it! I can't comprehend it, it seems like magic, so God must have done it!" Those who have the desire to learn more about how life came about and think about it, and exercise their logic muscles, well, get behind evolution and other scientific endeavors. I place myself in that last group.

A long rant, but that is how I believe.

>Are you sure you aren't a long-lost sister of mine?

Mom never told me about you.... ;-)

Gee... same here. I sense a conspiracy

Hmm...interesting question. Got to say when it comes to old omnipotent men in the sky that I am not a believer. But I do believe in the beauty of life and that energy as divinity. Sort of a "all life is a manifestation of the divine energy" type thing minus any supernatural beings...The power of belief is the contribution of your energy to your belief, not someone answering prayers up above. I label myself pagan for others because that tends to be a little bit easier for them to understand.

So I think what I am saying is that atheists and religious people hate me equally. :P

I don't know what I am...I do have an idea of what I am NOT. I am NOT a Christian.

I have a hard time believing in things I can't see and touch. I don't believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, Faireys in the garden or God. Its not that I KNOW they don't exist, its just that I have never met them or seen any REAL evidence that they do exist.

My belief is that man, over its history has felt the need to create these belief systems because he couldn't accept that this is all there is. They had to believe that someone unseen is guiding them AND going to give them another life when they die...

What a load of bollox ! Sounds more like a Disney Movie.

I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist, my Father was a retired minister at the time they adopted me. I went to church, they dragged me to bible studies as a child, I attended their schools, I was a skeptic the entire time. They would tell me things about their belief system and I would be thinking how insane it all sounded.

Well after reading the rest of your post I think I can safely say you are an atheist. Embrace it, it's rational.

Lisa,

You are an atheist, just like I am. You require substantial proof before you are willing to believe extraordinary claims. You were forced to believe the unbelievable, and rebelled all the while. You take very little at face value. You came to your conclusions through observation and logic. I went through a very similar process (always a skeptic and a non-believer from the age of 7, until arriving at my final atheistic POV at the age of 13.

A term I like to use is the more "positive" term Rationalist or FreeThinker, sometimes, in place of the "negative" term Atheist. However, atheist is what most people know, so sometimes it is easier to use that term.

Welcome aboard! (again)

Hi Duane,

I do know what you mean when you say "negative" term atheist. But it still hurts and I must defend it. The other terms rationalist and freethinker can apply to much more than a god. For example it is not likely that a rationalist believes in god, ghosts, big foot or psychics. But atheist covers pretty much just the god. So when discussing god I think atheist is the best word to use. None the less i am picking nits here.

As for you mention that you were a non-believer from the age of seven, let me also point out that you were a non-believer at some point prior to that also. You were born a non-believer as is everyone. We are all atheists at birth because atheism is simply the lack of a god belief, which none of us has until we are told to believe it. I agree with everything you said I think I am just making it my cause to correct people when they say things like "I became an atheist at age seven". Because it is more correct to say "I became a believer at age four and returned to atheism at seven". This puts the onus of the decision on the believer and establishes the atheism as the natural state.

I think infants are the ultimate egoists. Obviously, they don't have the vocabulary to discuss atheism, etc., but -- perhaps they view themselves as "god/ess"? Certainly, they are the center of (their) universe! ;-)

Point taken. It would be nice if there was a positive term for non-$deity belief, but the language hasn't quite evolved for that. So for now, Atheist will have to do, and is easily understood by most.



I stand corrected. Pick nits at will

I never had belief in any $deity before (i.e. I was a blank slate), and yes, no one does until they are taught such a belief from others. I'll make a mental note of that for any future times if/when I decide to speak about such things.

Human beings, especially children, are naturally curious about the world and the unknown. I can most definitely accept that atheism (lack of a god belief) is the default state of a child. I just feel uncomfortable when children are given the stock answer "God is responsible for everything and knows everything." I recall being 6-7 and feeling creepy that this God thing was watching me go to the bathroom, etc. I guess that is what started me trying to find out, for my own privacy's sake, where is this being that supposedly sees/knows all. I wanna know! And I never did find out proof to my satisfaction. So, technically, you could say that I went from atheism, to skepticism, then returned back to atheism during my youth as I questioned. My POV remains atheistic to this day.

Once again, I'll file these nit-picking points away for future use. Thanks for the advice.

Modesty as an avenue to leaving religion -- hmm.... ;-)

I guess I "want" to believe in things, like the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot, etc. I want to believe in God, but I don't. I never sat down and thought that since there is no proof, there is no God. I guess even when I was a kid I figured that if there was a God, he probably didn't interfere in our lives as much as everyone thinks (miracles, answering prayers, etc.) Why should I rely on a god to change my life? I'll change it myself!

No, I don't believe in God. I don't have a concrete reason. I guess it's just not logical (I hate that word, BTW, because faith is not SUPPOSED to be logical.) I've read the Bible, I went to church, I went to confirmation classes for two years. And I guess it's not that I never saw proof that there was God, but that the Bible doesn't make sense.

My husband is totally a deductive atheist. He says, where's the proof? And if there's no proof, then there is no God.

Personally, I think that polytheism, like the Greek gods, makes more sense than any monotheistic religion. Wicca makes more sense, too. If I had to choose a religion to practice, I would probably choose Wicca.

But, I don't feel lonely, I don't feel like there is something "missing" from my life. I treat others well (most of the time) and expect to be treated the same.

That being said, I don't disrespect people who are religious, unless you're totally over the top. That I can't stand from any religion. I also don't like the people who use religion for an excuse, like going to war.

I wanted to believe in God early, because it seemed easier. However, the logical side of me took over, so I used my lack of finding reasoning with the religious side of things as my final judgment tool. I really didn't study the Bible, per se, in my youth -- my Biblical readings as an adult (because I wanted to see what was really in there -- I didn't go there to be converted) reinforced my views.



Atheism requires thinking -- a lot of it. It requires logical analysis, putting two plus two together to make four, when in the religious sense, two plus two makes pi. That is why I am not really surprised to see a good number of CF people as atheists. CF decision making requires very logical thought processes, thinking about how the decisions of today affect the future. IMO, the same processes apply for people who question the religious authority and become agnostics/atheists.


I don't feel like anything is missing either. Plus, I did not need a church to be told that if I am nice to others, others just maybe, possibly, might want to be nice back.

Overzealous people don't deserve respect, IMO.

I would LOVE to believe in some of these things, like the dead can communicate with the living. I just have never see any evidence of it. If someone could show me some, then I would be prepared to change my mind.

I wish there was a Santa Clause and Fairys in the garden and God the great manipulator controlling all we do, I just don't see any evidence of it. As I tell people who try to force their religion on me, invite Jesus over for dinner and get him to do some tricks and maybe I will change my mind.

The phrase I use is "proof is in the pudding." For me, I know that I am such a doubter that even if Jesus came and, as you say, "did some tricks", I would still be a doubter. My standard of belief is so high, because the claims that go with religion (the existence of an after-life is a prime example) that I'm beyond convincing.

However, I actually do believe in the existence of ghosts of people still remaining on this earth and making their presence known to the living. I have not had any paranormal experiences, so I don't have that to fall back on. My difference between religion and the paranormal, I think, is that there are more believable physical manifestations that can be experienced from paranormal experiences than from religious events. In addition, ghosts or other spiritual entities don't require you to worship them. It seems more plausible, with more people having experienced such events in the here and now, than religious events.

The ultimate would be if I were to actually encounter the cold spots, the creepy feelings, the touches where no one is around, or the heavy breathing sounds or translucent images of things that have little to no real world explanation. I don't know if I am ready for that myself.

I have to agree with you there, I think its FAR more likely that the dead can communicate with us but its something where I would have to have a loved one of mine communicate with me before I would really embrace it for truth.

My invitation for Jesus to come over and do some tricks is more to shut up the bible beaters then a real perdiction that I would change my mind if he did.

Anytime when someone in my life tries to convince me of something UNLIKELY and I feel they have something to gain from it, I am skeptical.

I'm naturally skeptical about things, so we most definitely think alike. Whatever works for you is good... it works for me too

Duane, did you actually say that you believe in ghosts in one post and that you are naturally skeptical in the next? I am having a hard time finding the skepticism here. Might I suggest a little James Randi reading, try www.randi.org.

>My husband is totally a deductive atheist. He says, where's the proof? And if there's no proof, then there is no God

My dh is an atheist because, growing up, he realized that all religions say they are true, but they have contradictions, so, if they couldn't all be true, than none of them must be.

To me, both those lines of thought leave some things out. For the first, there is no proof that there is love -- acts that are described as "love" could be viewed in a different, more rational light. Yet I am certain that there is love.

And all religions not being true -- well, I doubt any religion has 100% of everything right. But that can't be a reason doubt doubt a deity. (Mind you, I doubt, but I can't say I KNOW.) Perhaps they all have a small piece of the puzzle, but none of them have all the details. Heck, from their perspective, it is awfully arrogant for them to think that their limited minds can perceive and comprehend the gesalt of God. But they never mention that.... ;-)

I am skeptic about something unless I am convinced by the quality and believability of the sources. That is, I am skeptic when I find myself unable to trust the sources that state that X is true. I have several friends that I know are not delusional, that have experienced unexplainable events (re: ghosts or manifestations of events that have no reason. I have seen what I consider to be credible video and picture evidence of paranormal events. From those trusted sources, I look at the credibility of sources and evidence shown, and make up my mind on this one subject. Belief that a persons essence might still be around after their body dies does not equate that there are gods out there.

In other words, I AM skeptical of everything until proven otherwise.

I have had an un-explainable event happen too me but I make no assumptions what it actually means.

I haven't had people that I know and trust tell me they have spoken with the dead AND if I did I would still have to see it for myself. I have a couple dead relatives that would need to come forward and have a word, its that simple.

I find it alot more believable that your loved ones can contact you then all the flight of fancy that some people believe about religion. The religion I was raised in says that a gaurdian angel goes everywhere with you, he leaves you at the door if you enter a place you should not be in, like a pool hall, a movie theatre, etc. I wonder where he was when I had that horrible accident that I almost died in, nowhere near any of the places where he was supposed to leave my side. Maybe I wasn't praying hard enough...maybe I wasn't good enough, maybe my angel was on vacation, looking the other way, recharging his wings...now doesn't that sound absolutely rediculous??

I can't embrace any of it, dead souls talking to the living, angels floating over my shoulder until I see it, speak to them, experience their force field as it were. My Father passed away in 1999, all he would have to do is come and speak to me, there are any number of things he could say that I would know it was him. The same with an angel, any number of things he could do to make my way easier that I would know it was that good old guardian angel.

Then again, I am the kind of person who would probably assume it was auditory and visual hallucinations WAY before I would believe it was a gaurdian angel and my Father speaking too me from beyond the grave. I would probably commit myself for observation to the local psyche ward before I would become a believer in such unlikely things.

I have a family member who WANTS to believe in every insane thing out there, the crazier it is, the more she wants to embrace it. She believes in the dead talking with us, she is a christian, she believes aliens walk the earth...(she has been watching a little too much sci fi channel I believe). She asked me what I would do if an alien ship landed on my front lawn. I would dial 911 and ask them to get me away from my daughter because I had clearly gone nuts.

Think about it, how many times a day does a human being decompensate and start having auditory halluncinations and having visual halluncinations. I think you would be surprised how often that happens. AND the person it happens to, is not normally aware they are not real, its called having LOW insight into your own condition and many mental health problems are like that. People who have been fine their WHOLE life can pop up and display some pretty extreme symptoms. I think some religions actually encourage this insanity in their followers, it makes it alot easier to accept the beliefs of that religion. Why do you think The Church of Scientology is SO against psychiatric medication for their followers?

Well, I have anecdotal evidence of precognition -- and rationally, I have a hard time understanding how a person could have foreknowledge in this way, but -- it was family. My grandparents have both had significant precognitive events in their lives (they are now deceased, btw), my mother has had some. Too many to be mere coincidence. (My grandfather used to read tea leaves until he foresaw his mother's death. I suspect the tea leaves were a way for him to focus this ability -- my mother often said that she would usually see a dog or a horse, he would point out what he saw, and she could see that... kind of like looking at clouds, I think.)

My grandmother had Dreams (and dreams, too, as we all do) -- she could always tell the difference between a significant Dream and a "silly" dream like we get.

A couple were somewhat amusing. Once she and my mother both Dreamed of rushing water. Later that day, the water main in the house broke -- and yes, there sure was rushing water! They knew that those were different kinds of dreams before the water main broke. I suspect my dh thinks it is just coincidence, but that sort of thing happened far too often to be coincidence.

There's a lot we don't know about physics, a lot we don't know about the human brain, just too much we don't know. My grandmother (my main experience with this, as she lived with us when my grandfather died) couldn't control her Dreams, didn't LIKE having them (she was a Christian, and it was contrary to her religious beliefs), but had them, none-the-less.

So, if I had regular psychic experiences, I would be inclined to belief them. (I have not had the same experiences first hand.) Could there not be a gene for a tendency to these abilities, (or more likely, a number of genes), and many may suppress the ability, many others truly don't have it (a color blind person may really want to see colors, but never will - yet generally believes the rest of us that they are there).

Similarly, if an alien landed in my yard -- well, hey, way cool! But I can't imagine that the universe has only one planet populated, and I find it hard to image that we are the most advanced in the universe, so an alien landing is not inconceivable to me. And, thus far, I've never had any mental instability....

Of course, if it happened on October 31st or April 1st, I might look for tricks!

I had something happen to me when I was in high school. I was BARELY 16. We lived in Texas, it was Christmas break so no school the next day. It was evening and my best friend asked me if I could come and sleep over at her house. I had only been there once before and it was in an area I had NEVER been too other then that one time I had been to her home.

I asked my parents if I could go and they said yes. What they did not realize is the streets were covered in a thin sheet of ice. I was not aware of it either until I pulled out of the driveway and slid all over the place. Texas doesn't have enough sanding equipment to do anything but the bridges, your on your own the rest of the time.

If my brain had been engaged, I would have turned around and pulled back in my own driveway, called my friend and told her I could not come due to the weather. BUT being a brain donor teenager, I decided I wanted to go anyway. I had never slept over at her house and I wanted to get away from home.

I crept along all the way up the highway, hoping and praying the entire time nothing bad would happen. I made the turn off to her house, went up this road, then started to panic because I didn't remember exactly where the turn off was. I literally had NEVER been down that road past the turn off, had no idea what was there. It was an area with little light, rural to say the least.

I knew I had to turn left, I was driving along, thinking the turn off was at the top of the hill. Thats when I saw it...a sign with my last name on it with an arrow pointing down the road to the left that was at the top of the hill. I knew once I got on to that road I would be fine because it was gravel and there wasn't enough ice to make a gravel road slippery or at least I hoped not.

Understand, I have only heard of one person with my last name, spelled the SAME way, who was not related too me. My assumption was that my friends Father had put it there for me, he was known to be something of a trickster. It looked like he had somehow come out and attached that sign to another one already standing there.

I turned down the road and made it there fine AND the gravel wasn't slippery at all. I thanked him for the sign when I got there and he looked at me like I was NUTS. He had not put a sign there. I even asked his wife when he was not around and she said he had not left the house between the time that I had been on the phone with my friend and when I had arrived. My friend confirmed this as well.

I told them what I had seen. They were perplexed but had no idea how it had gotten there. We were up EARLY the next morning, my friend had to get too her job so we left around 7am. The sign was gone. I had told her I would point it out when we got there, there was nothing to point out.

I later did a little research, there was NO ONE by that last name, that spelling or any other listed as living in that town or the surrounding area, never mind down that particular road. I later drove down that road looking to see if there were any other signs or maybe a mail box with my last name on it but never found anything.

Of course the people I stayed with were VERY religious and literally believed my guardian angel had made me see that sign and that maybe some horrible fate awaited me if I had missed that turn off. I can still see that sign in my memory...I didn't imagine it. Was it a coincidence? Did some loved one who had passed on put it there to help me, OR like the fundies think was there a winged entity following me on my trip AND placed the sign there for me to find?

If it was the angel I have to wonder where he was when I was almost killed in a car accident some years later, a heads up then would have been NICE. That was 15 years ago and I still can't drive down that road.

The answer is I have no idea. The only logical explanation is that someone of the same last name just happened to be visiting someone on that road the SAME night that I was going. AND someone got there to remove the sign the next day. Until someone shows me another LOGICAL explanation, thats all I can believe.

I don't see your experience with the flooded basement as evidence of anything but coincidence. You had a dream about rushing water and only after your basement flooded did you make the assumption of precognition. If your basement had not flooded you would have forgotten the dream like you have forgotten the thousands of other dreams that never led to anything. You state that this happens far too often to be dismissed when in actuality it does not happen often at all because you only notice it when its a coincidence.

This is similar to the full moon lunacy that ER workers and police talk about. My wife has colleagues in the ER who swear that they get all the "wackos" during a full moon. In fact when they get a few "wackos" and notice its a full moon then they remember it. When its not a full moon it is quickly forgotten. This becomes a self fulfilling prohecy because invariable somebody comes to work and says "its a full moon tonight, we will probably see lots of "wackos"" Then everyone notices when the first one comes in.

As for your experience Lisa, it is far more likely that your mind was playing tricks on you. You were driving alone at night on an unfamiliar country road and the weather was not very good. You are driving slowly straining to see beyond your headlights and you think you see something that is not there. To top it out you ended up turning exactly where you thought you were supposed to turn. I would be much more impressed if you had been redirected to another location altogether.

I am quite certain that not one of these stories is capable of claiming the million dollar JREF paranormal challenge. A challenge that the likes of skammers like Sylvia Brown and Uri Gellar are afraid to take.

"Coincidence is the science of the true believer." -Chet Raymo

I recommend everyone who believes any of this stuff read The Demon Haunted World by my hero Carl Sagan.

I've had some experiences and premonitions (not as traumatic and life-changing as that, however!) that I could not explain logically, with a reasonable doubt.

Do I believe that there are mysteries energies/so-called "other planes of existence" that the human mind does not understand? Yes.
Do I believe that humanity will ever explain all of these strange events/energies? No.
Do I accept that I will never understand every strange, mysterious event? Yes.
Does it bother me that I don't know the cause of said events/energies? No, because I accept that the unknown is ALWAYS a possibility.

What it comes down to is this:

I accept the possibility of the unknown unknowns. I accept that there are forces out there that we are not in control of. Just because I have belief in those unknown forces existing does not mean that I believe ALL unknown force ideas thrown at me. I only believe those which I can prove, or have proven to me, in a logical manner to my own satisfaction, exist beyond a reasonable doubt. In that respect, that is where the concepts of God and religion fail my tests.

My biggest issue with trying to comprehend the mind of a believer is that I JUST CAN'T. I've tried for years, but I just can not understand it. My mind runs into a "illogic wall" (for lack of a better word) that I can't make get past. I can not rationalize that particular POV. In order to try to keep my own sanity, I just made the simple statement to myself that I never will understand it, so I move on.

The dreams were deemed "significant" BEFORE the water main broke, discussed between them, which is why I don't view them as coincidence. And that was just ONE example, not the dozens and dozens that we experienced over the years. My grandmother ALWAYS could tell a Dream (significant -- I could always hear the capital D in her voice) from a dream (inconsequential.)

But, I'm not ascribing any SUPERnatural power as the root of these events, but looking to find a valid scientific reasoning behind them.

And, given the weirdness (if you will) of string theory, which posits 11 dimensions, of which we apparently only view 3, there could be reasons for things that seem hard to explain deep in physics.

The question: How did you come to this conclusion? Has your attitude hardened or softened through the years?

I'm new to this forum. Actually, I'm pretty new to admitted atheism. I grew up mostly Catholic. Threats from my mother to attend church on Sundays and so on... all sorts of fun stuff. I dabbled in religion (going with friends to services where people spoke in tongues, where I really felt like the odd one out) then converted to Mormonism in college (now there's a church that has the whole "pull them into the fold" thing down to an art form). Then dabbled in Wicca (or is it Wiccan-ism?). Now I am none of the above.
I just can't bring myself to believe in God. I do believe that people fight far too much in the name of religion. I believe that ethics do not equal religion, and vice versa. I also believe that I can raise my children morally and with kindness, but without having to feel obligated to any church or God (or Goddess, for that matter).
I have a friend who is very Christian. She is also one of the few people I know who really adheres to the principles of her particular religion. She's a good human. She doesn't understand my atheism, but continues to be my friend (and occasionally tries to get me to attend church, but since I moved to another state that has ceased. Thankfully). I guess I'm just looking for a safe place to be myself. To be an unbeliever and not be looked down upon.
I want to raise my children to be kind, ethical, decent humans. But I don't want them to feel obligated to worship a nonexistent God. My husband is also atheist. We are absolutely agreed in our determination to raise our children to question authority and draw their own conclusions.
My attitude has definitely hardened over the years. I was much more accepting of the possibility of God/Goddess/Supreme-being-of-some-sort until just a few years ago. Now I am absolutely comfortable in my belief that we humans need to take full responsibility for our actions and the consequences. I really think that the idea of some supreme being out there gives humans the idea that they can be cruel toward each other and still seek forgiveness and "salvation."
I know now that I have always been a non-believer. But I also know that I did, at one point, act the part of believer to fit in to a world that doesn't accept non-believers in order to have a "family."
Now I know that being true to myself and what I really believe is more important than faking it in order to belong. Took a long while, but I am comfortable in my own skin now. I don't have to fake it any more.

"The question: How did you come to this conclusion? Has your attitude hardened or softened through the years?"

I was raised in a religious family, from a very young age I thought it sounded rediculous. As I got older, it was all I could do to keep myself from saying "bollox" when they would go on about it.

I just never felt like they did.