This is a companion post to my current article on rebirth at http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art46824.asp. Please answer the poll and post your own thoughts or questions on rebirth. If you are Buddhist, do you consider belief in rebirth essential to your path or irrelevant? If you are not Buddhist, how do you view rebirth and/or reincarnation?

If you are interested in another (slightly heady) debate about whether or not believing in rebirth is essential to being a Buddhist, check out this article in Tricycle magazine, http://www.tricycle.com/feature/3857-1.html.

Looking forward to your responses!

I was raised Catholic, so, of course, re-birth was not an option. But now that I have been fortunate enough to be involved with someone who has helped me expand my awareness and expand my consciousness to be able to consider alternative viewpoints, I am much more comfortable with the concept that rebirth is not only possible, but both likely AND desirable. I think it is fascinating to wonder about life before and life after this one and to ponder the infinite evolution of the soul.

Rebirth and reincarnation just make sense. It took me years to accept that after much study and reading.

I have greatly enjoyed learning about Buddhism from everyone on this site, and I fully believe that there are a lot of Buddhist practices that can be incorporate into the Christian lifestyle, and actually make it better.

This, however is not one of those beliefs.

I love the idea of previous lives, I think it is very romantic and soothing - especially for people who have done great wrongs and truly want to make up for them.

But I believe that God gives us each an individual soul. That soul He makes for each person with love and great detail, much like an artist who puts love into every brushstroke of a painting - except multiply that exponentially.

I still greatly admire those of you that I have "met" on here who are Buddhists, and I never want any of you to think otherwise. I just can't agree with you on this point.

Jeanette/Michelle - thanks so much for coming by the forum and responding. Michelle, many people that I know, including my husband and even some friends that consider themselves Buddhist, do not believe in rebirth or reincarnation, so you don't need to worry about that bothering me! I just always appreciate people sharing their beliefs, and being willing to talk about them.

I have come to believe in it, but I don't consider it intrinsic to being a Buddhist or adopting many of the practices and approaches Buddhism has to offer, which as you say, anyone of any religion can really benefit from.

Well, Christianity did actually advocate a process of reincarnation.
But this was supressed early on, because Church and stare wished to ccombine power, control the masses and knew they couldn't do it without fire and brimstone.

Christians were always taught about a riencarnated soul. But it meant loss of control for the church. so they made it a bad thing.....

I believe it.
It should be no more astonishing and unbelievable to be beorn twice, than it was to be born once.

Why not?

I was just reading a book on the Gnostic Gospels that talked alot about the early removal of reincarnation from Christian gospels too...also about references to it in both Judaic Kabbalah texts and Islamic Sufi ones, so really it seems all the major religions have supported the idea of it at some point or other...

For me, I never thought about it so much as you only get one chance to do things right, but it is more about each soul being unique.

I guess I always looked at reincarnation as "reusing" a soul.

If I may, I don't believe in reincarnation as it stands from a Buddhist belief but as a Christian I believe in being "born again".

When you are born again, you are being reincarnated, so to speak, from the old, sinful flesh and put on a new flesh in Jesus Christ.

So, I believe in it from that standpoint.

What a truly fascinating exchange! As I have understood it, reincarnation was indeed included in early Christianity, but then it became a political issue. Since Pagans believed in reincarnation, and the spiritual power of the goat, Christian leaders of the time felt they had to push the idea that the "devil" had goat-like features. And that all of nature was separate from "God" and represented fear and darkness. Since Paganism was twisted into something of the devil, the concept ofreincarnation had to be made evil, too.

Michelle, what an interesting take on reincarnation. The "used" and "reused" soul.

As I understand it, the unique soul that we are simply makes transition into new and different circumstances, in order to learn things they never could in one body. I personally don't believe in the "one chance" theory - there simply isn't enough time or opportunity to experience true empathy and understanding in a single lifetime.

I remember being here twice before, and these memories have enriched my life tremendously. I understand loss and wealth in ways I never could have in this lifetime - they just wouldn't have come up under such unique circumstances, and within such different time periods. I have references to experiences that broaden my spectrum and add a depth of understanding about life. I have come to understand reincarnation as essential in becoming a whole, complete individual. I can't say why most people don't have recollection of their past lives, but I can't imagine my life without them.

Shay

Hmm...I wouldn't think of it as "reusing a soul" Michelle.

I have been taught that we come back to live life until we have learned all the lessons that we need to. Or have taught all the lessons we need to.

Sometimes we need to teach more than we need to be taught.

Yes, it's interesting to me - a lot of descriptions of awakening or enlightenment experiences in Buddhist stories are very similar to Christian descriptions of being born-again. And in most forms of Buddhism, reaching that point means you will not reincarnate, or at least have the choice not to reincarnate, because there are no longer latent karmas pulling you back. So there are a lot of interesting parallels...

The big difference is that in most Buddhist teachings, there isn't one born-again experience. There are insights/awakening/satori/samadhi experiences (the words used vary by tradition) over and over on ever new levels (many within meditation), that over time lead to a person's complete freedom/enlightenment.

are we talking about Re-Birth, or Reincarnation?
The two are quite different.

The really funny thing is; when I think about reincarnation or having previous lives for myself - that doesn't bother me so much.

It is the thought of my children's soul not being "their own" - that it is someone else's soul, not one custom made for them that I stick at.

I guess because I see them - they are so definitely unique individuals.

I can't even say that it is a Christian thing vs. a Buddhist thing - it is just this mindset I have. I can't imagine a newborn baby with the soul of my great-grandmother. And after I die, I don't wish my soul with its faults onto an innocent newborn either. (I am soooo no saying my grandmother had major faults, just the opposite - she was an amazing woman - just realized how those two sentences wounded together!)

Yahhhh! I don't know how to explain myself on this.

OK. Let's just get this a bit straight and iron out any confusion:
Buddhism as a religious Philosophy, (Or a Philosophical religion, take your pick)ascribes to the concept of RE-BIRTH.
Re-Birth is a Kammic Priciple. It is a direct consequence of your actions. This link explains it very well.

Reincarnation is not a Buddhist premise. This is not classical Buddhist teaching.
But it is ascribed to by Tibetan Buddhism in that it believes that certain elevated Lamas and Tibetan Gurus, are able, on a higher level of Awareness and Wisdom, to re-direct their re-birth so as to manifest within the physical existence of another. Therefore, the Reincarnated Lama (or Tulku, as they are primarily known) is a composite of the Lama that was and the Being who is.

In short, rebirth is a moral or kammic principle whereas reincarnation is a meta-physical principle.

if we're going to discuss re-birth (on a buddhist forum), it would be as well for some to do a little research before commenting on something that is apt to cause confusion and lead the topic in a different direction entirely.

Hi Alexandra, actually, that is exactly what the article I posted on the topic was about (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art46824.asp), but in relation to this discussion I'm not sure it's the main issue...for many Christians the issue is simply does any part of us recur, and of course traditional Christianity as it exists today says no...the belief is a substantive or metaphysical soul that moves to another plane after death and does not, at any level, recur as human again, so that would eliminate both rebirth and reincarnation...

Hi Michelle, I think the 'unique' thing is what gets a lot of people...but neither reincarnation or rebirth undermines the idea that every being is unique...the levels that recur are subtle, not at the personality or physical level...the unique combination can never recur again...

Well hang on... Maybe I misunderstand you.
THis is a Buddhist forum.
The question is:
"Do you believe in Re-Birth? Is it essential?"

I assumed (wrongly it seems,) that it was addressed to Buddhists as re-birth forms part of Buddhist teachings.
So why suddenly are we talking about concessionary opinion to Christans, mentioning Reincarnation, and the elimination of the two?
This is kind of off-topic, isn't it?
THis forum is either run to discuss Buddhism, and buddhist-related topics, for Buddhists, with contribution from other denominational beliefs - or it's run under the auspices of Buddhism, but with concession and open-house policy for christians and non-Buddhists to discuss willy-nilly what they think in relation to their own beliefs, but with no, scant, or little knowledge of what the Buddha taught.

Let me know which it is, because if it's the latter, you'll forgive me if I protest.

have any Christians and non-Buddhists here actually bothered to do any research on Buddhist teachings and topics, as a primary point of discussion, before sailing in with their opinions?
Wouldn't it actually be rather polite of them to do so?

Tell you all what:
Read , and then we'll discuss.

How's that?

Alexandra,

I'm sorry if my being in this conversation has upset you.

I did read the article, I was just trying to explain why I have a personal struggle with reincarnation, more as a person than as a Christian.

I have very much enjoyed learning about Buddhism through this site and this forum. In fact, it is one reason why I have changed many of my spiritual viewpoints.

No, I am not a Buddhist, but I hope I can still learn from the teachings. That is why I come here. My debates are done in the true spirit of debate - not trying to change someone's mind.

Alexandra,just to again clarify, Lisa asked both Buddhists and non-Buddhists in her initial post to share their views on rebirth:

"Please answer the poll and post your own thoughts or questions on rebirth. If you are Buddhist, do you consider belief in rebirth essential to your path or irrelevant? If you are not Buddhist, how do you view rebirth and/or reincarnation?

If you are interested in another (slightly heady) debate about whether or not believing in rebirth is essential to being a Buddhist, check out this article in Tricycle magazine, http://www.tricycle.com/feature/3857-1.html.

Looking forward to your responses!"

So, in this particular thread, the offer was open to one and all to share their beliefs about rebirth.

Shay

Ah. I think I get where where you're coming from now. It appears that it really isn't about spiritual beliefs, but the belief that your own children really aren't "yours," but someone else's preformed personalities, and it creeps you out? Does that sound right?

If I do understand it right, it seems to be more about your need to feel that you created brand new human beings, that you can rear, mold, and take credit for. It then becomes about your attachment to them and how they represent you, rather than who they are as individual entities, separate from you. Yeah?

I'm hearing you say that you don't mind the thought of yourself being reincarnated, yet don't you think of yourself as a unique individual?

Shay

Alexandra, I think Shay covered it here. The initial post was explicitly open to all opinions. As I said, the article that I posted the same day was in fact about the difference between rebirth and reincarnation, but the poll didn't link to that or make it clear, and the thread wandered off in another direction. I could have made separate threads, and maybe will in the future. Frankly, at the time I posted this, the forum had had no activity for awhile, and I was just trying to drum up some activity, so made the poll very open-ended.

Since there's no limit on the number of active threads, I don't see why the forum can't include both Buddhist discussion and interfaith discussions. Each person can decide which threads they want to participate in.

From the Buddhist perspective (and maybe this should be spun off into another thread if you are interested in discussing it), what I found interesting in the Tricycle article linked to in the original post was that 'belief' in rebirth was not intrinsic to being Buddhist, because the truth of rebirth is a realization that should arise naturally from practice, i.e. not be a metaphysical concept held to be true prior to its naturally arising during practice...that is what I was trying to address with the question to Buddhists, 'is it essential?'

Shay, thank you for that article. In case people don't know it, Bob Thurman is Uma Thurman's father. The name "uma" means "Flax, lumionu' and is also another name for the Hindu Goddess Parvathi. it also alludes to Compassion.

The discussion is very complex to follow, indeed, and of course, with Thurman's obvious leanings toward Tibetan buddhism, the word reincarnation pops up several times.
Being Theravadan, I find it difficult to absorb reincarnation concepts, vis-a-vis Tibetan buddhism. Difficult, but not impossible. As with all matters of this nature, perhaps the best option is to keep an open mind. They discuss much current literature that focusses on 'Past Life' research, which is a lot less fanciful than many assume it to be....
I stick with the catchy wisdom of Monsieur Voltaire.....

Lisa, as Editor of this forum, of course you are at liberty (wihin reasons, I would guess!) to run this forum as you see fit.
I would however caution you (as one who has had Moderating experience) to watch carefully that matters are not over-run by people coming in to post in th guise of participation, but who have nothing more to lay on the table, orther than their own viewpoint or agenda.
This is not - I would hasten to add, happening here. I'm not saying that.
But the prevalent problem in past times was that there were an awful lot of people coming in with a view of diverting discussion and being purely argumentative.
Buddhism is arguably the only 'Godless' religion on the planet that I know of. An awful lot of people find that both difficult to accept, and a threat to their own premise.
Opening the forum to such a wide variety of Buddhist discussions, but with the view that this should be open to all, regardless, is a path strewn with pitfalls.

Take care.

With much metta,

Alex

Hi Alexandra, the Tricycle article was actually part of my original post, that Shay was reprinting. In retrospect that probably could have been a separate thread, as combining it and the poll (and making the poll so open-ended) has led to a wandering thread...

I appreciate your advice on moderating...I am not aware of the past history of this forum (I read back a bit, but not that far) so we will see where it goes. I would have a problem with people doing straight proselytizing (i.e. Buddhism is wrong because__________) type posts, and would halt those. In this case, I was fine with the open discussion on rebirth/reincarnation that occurred. I want people who are new to Buddhism, or members of other religions that are interested in it, to feel it is a place they can post, and even challenge, Buddhist views, if it is done in a respectful way.

Call me a dreamer:-)

Lisa, you are not dreaming at all!

I love that you are opening up your forum to all who wish to respectfully participate.

It has happened in many of the BellaOnline forums that people wander in and begin belittling the basis of the forum itself. You are correct that it has not happened in your posts thus far.

Another thing to be wary of is things shifting in the other direction in your forum, as well intentioned Buddhists can come out swinging in defense of their beliefs, against folks who have been invited to share their views, but have not been argumentative or disrespectful in their posts. I don't get the impression you want welcomed members to be cased away from posting at all!

In either case, as moderator, you hold the whistle!

Shay

Well, as one of the "strong arms" that generally does the chasing, I hope y'all will let me know straight out if my comments are out of line. I can take it!

After having to do MUCH political moderating during the elections I know that two hottest places to be are the Religious and Political forums (although arguments have broken out in some of the most surprising places, too!)

Back to your reply Shay



Yeah, it does creep me out to think there might be a Ted Bundy soul residing in my son (or daughter!)

Although it does not have much to do with how I can mld them, I just like to think they are "clean slates" that they can become whoever they want be - not someone they are pre-programmed to be. (I do not like to think my parents molded me, so I don't want to try to "make" my kids into who they are, I just want to protect them until they can find who they are.)

I guess the reason I don't mind it for me is that I do see the romantic side of it, and I already know who I am, so I don't worry about it so much.

I have always held issue that when approaching other denominations' fora, we are expected to at least learn something about theirs, or have some primary knowlege on the subject.
Not difficult, I grant you, given that the majority of Western Buddhists grew up in a Christian country, even if their home was not practising.
I feel it would be respectful therefore if other non-Buddhists were to venture into discussions on this forum having at least accumulated a little prior rudimentary Knowlege on Buddhist practice regarding the topic in question.

Wouldn't it be nice if they did a little homework before venturing to expound their own views on the matter?
Or is that being unrealistic and overly-demanding?
And if so, why?

The reason I am pressing this point is because as a frequenter on 5 other Buddhist Fora - this is a pre-requisite of any non-Buddhist participating.
Or at least their wishing to learn something, being a condition of their joining.
What's the point of entering into a discussion and not knowing something about it?

It's a bit like my attending an avionics conference, and having no knowlege on the subject, but giving my experiences of flying to Milan on holiday.
Very interesting, yes thanks - but - what's your point, with regard to avionics?

Oh dear! Well, I can see that - sheesh, a Ted Bundy would be creepy...



Okay, yeah I'm seeing more clearly what you mean. As I understand it, souls aren't really pre-programmed at all, but come into their lives with cumulative experiences and certain "goals", but also with all of the free choices and free will of an innocent being. Every lifetime is a fresh chance for gaining wisdom and insight.



Ah! But your children feel the same way about themselves...

Shay

But my children don't even think about thee things! LOL!

You know, I really wonder if part of it is that with all the rage issues my oldest son has (the one with Asperger's) that I'm really scared there IS a "bad soul" inside him. When he goes into those Mr. Hyde type rages that seem like a different person from who he really is, it is almost like he is posessed. I know intellectually it is his disorder and other problems that have caused these things. But when I am staring my own child in the face as he is choking me? It is not so easy to think rationally.

Sorry -I really HAVE hijacked this thread!

I see your point, and in future threads that I start I will be more specific in the questions asked. However, since in this one I invited non-Buddhists to comment on how they felt about rebirth OR reincarnation, all of the posts so far are on topic, and none seem to me to be disrespectful towards Buddhism.

I also belong to another Buddhist forum, as well as an interfaith one, and they vary in approach. Because of the broad nature of BellaOnline, I think the articles and forum will always attract a lot of non-Buddhists, which is different than many other Buddhist forums, which are associated with specific Buddhist sites or sanghas. I think in the future I will have threads that are oriented for Buddhists, and some open to all.

Well, I did invite you to respond! But, I will try now to offer one Buddhist view on the matter:-)

My cousin was recently saying something very similar to me about her daughter, who has similar issues. I don't think of it in terms of good souls or bad souls (in terms of reincarnation) or even in terms of good karma or bad karma (in terms of rebirth). I know people often talk in those 'good' and 'bad' terms, but from my perspective most Buddhist teachings on the matter talk more in terms of momentums and energies that have carried forward from the past (cause and effect and all that), and they aren't intrinsically good or bad. They can each manifest as either good or bad in terms of the actions they lead to, but in and of themselves they are just energies, that can be channeled in any direction. So rage, for example, is a destructive manifestation of that kind of energy, but someone else might channel that same kind of energy into a creative or athletic achievement. This kind of transmutation of energies is central to Vajrayana or Tantric Buddism, which is more my background.

Which doesn't help you much with your son, I know, because Asperger's is another whole cup of tea. But I was just addressing the issue of fearing the rage was a sign of some latent badness, and this being part of your discomfort with the ideas of rebirth and reincarnation.