Natural miscarriage vs. D&C
Posted By: Jode
Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 09/27/06 02:01 AM
I just wanted to share my story because when I was looking for information and I couldn't find any. When I was almost 13 weeks pregnant I found out by ultrasound that I was having a miscarriage called a blight ovum. My body was showing no signs of miscarriage (bleeding or cramping). At that point, once everything was confirmed and my hormone levels were dropping I was told I'd probably have to have something called a D&C in order to remove the contents of the uterus since my body didn't seem to be taking care of things naturally. They figured the fetus died at 9.5 weeks so it was surprising that nothing was happening yet. I'm into natural health so I was not excited about the D&C option so I put it off long enough so that I could try to help things along naturally and let my body take care of things when the time was right. But I wasn't willing to wait forever so I booked the D&C for 2 weeks later. In the mean time I seached the internet for what I could do and found information on herbs that help you expell the contents of the uterus. I had lots of hot baths in epsom salts and exercised a fair bit. I took some herbs for about 5 days and then decided that that felt like enough. I talked to my body and let it know that it was okay to release, I was ready to move on. Then the day before I was booked in for the D&C I started bleeding light at first and then boom, it came on really heavy. I went to the hospital because that was what I was told to do if I started bleeding that heavy. I was having crazy cramps for about an hour and then I passed something (you would know it when it happened) when I went to the bathroom. My cramping eased right off after that and the bleeding lightened up a lot (I maybe bled heavy for 2 hours). I had an ultrasound which showed that I had expelled everything! I was so relieved. So happy that I had given my body the chance to take care of everything on it's own and it pulled through! The women's body truly is amazing! If anyone has any questions or is going through the same thing I would be happy to share more.
Posted By: DaisyDown
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/01/06 03:00 AM
While a D & C is scary and an unhappy option--all that invasive [censored] in the middle of such a tumultuous, emotional time--sometimes it is the best way to make sure the uterus is in the shape it needs to be, especially if you're going to try to get pregnant again.
I had a miscarriage in Aug 2005. I was allowed to miscarry naturally and did not have a D&C.
I got pregnant again in April 2006, and miscarried in May. My new doctor wanted to perform a D&C because he was concerned that my uterus may have not fully expelled the lining or "products of conception" from my previous pregnancy, therefore making miscarriage much more likely.
My mother in law is an OB nurse and she was a) surprised the first doc didn't do a D&C and said she wouldn't have been surprised if that's what caused my second miscarriage, and b) that after the D&C, she would be willing to bet that I carried any new pregnancy to term.
Well, I'm pregnant now, 4 months after the last miscarriage/d&c...I've only just found out yesterday, so I don't know the specifics...but if I make it past my first trimester this time, I'm going to be thankful we agreed to the D&C.
Posted By: Thel
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/20/06 02:00 PM
Thanks Jode for posting this. It also has been something I have been trying to find more info on.
2 weeks ago I went for my first check up since being pregnant (at 8.5 weeks). The doctor said she didn't see a heart beating so asked me to do 2 blood tests. One that day and one 48 hours later to see if my HCG levels had gone down (apparently if the pregnancy is developing normally, the HCG
levels should double every 48 hours). Well unfortunately the results showed they had gone down.
I haven't had any bleeding, it's been 15days. I went to see the doc again today, she booked me into do a D&C next Thursday. I told her I would prefer for the baby to pass naturally, but she said there is a risk if I wait even longer my womb could become infected, which could lead to further complications for a future pregnancy.
When she said I should go for an operation, I got so upset, I've never had an operation before, be it minor. It seems like such an invasive means to end this. I am hoping that I pass the remains naturally before next Thursday.
Does anyone know how long it is recommended to wait for the remains to pass?
What are the risks of not going for a D&C vs. natural means?
Any advice on some natural methods to maybe help pass the remains faster?
Thanks for posting this topic,
Posted By: Karaleen
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/24/06 09:48 PM
First of all...I am so sorry your pregnancy ended in miscarriage. I had a miscarriage of twins 2 weeks ago at 9 weeks pregnant and it was devastating for me and my husband. However, I do have some advise for you on the D&C vs the natural miscarriage.
I chose the D&C. It is actually quite safe and performed for many reasons other than miscarriage. I am so grateful I chose this as the whole miscarriage experience was made less traumatic. Once you know your baby(ies) are no longer alive, it becomes so grueling to walk around knowing they are still in there...it just prolongs a very traumatic experience. I understand some people like to let natural things happen naturally, but I didn't plan to have my babies without pain medicine or a cavity without novicaine...so I chose to be put under and get it over with so we could move on and heal. The discomfort was minimal and the bleeding afterward was next to nothing. I am so glad I went this route. Several of my girlfriends have had miscarriages and they would recommend the D&C over a natural miscarriage. Some natural m/c can be fast and not so painful but others are really awful and women often end up in the emergency room for a D&C anyway because the pain and bleeding are too much for them to handle.
My advice is to keep the event in a controlled environment to reduce the added trauma you may have to endure.
I was also told by my Dr. that if you want to try again, you usually get your period faster after a D&C vs a natural M/C because your hormones level out faster.
Hope it all goes well for you.
Posted By: Thel
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/25/06 09:10 AM
Thanks Karaleen for you nice message,
I totally see your point about getting a D&C, it just caught me by surprise last Friday when my gyno booked me in for it. I suppose I wasn't ready, I just assumed my body would heal itself. Well after I posted this message, I went to another doctor and she prescribed me Cytotec, which she hoped would help induce it. I bled this weekend, quite heavily Saturday night, but then very lightly since. I just went for another ultrasound and the sac is still there. Its so hard to know what to do. Normally I am booked in for the D&C tommorrow, but I just can't make up my mind what to do. I feel so much pressure to make a decision fast.
Does anyone know if its dangerous waiting longer? I would be 11 weeks pregnant now.
Posted By: Karaleen
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/25/06 08:30 PM
Oh Thel, my heart goes out to you. This is such a long process for you and I'm sure you just want to be able to move on and begin healing. Plus, you are probably feeling a bit trapped now that your body is so unpredictable. If you are like me, you don't want to experience this even in public and are now locked in your home. I can't stress enough to go get the D&C. You gave your body ample time to do this for you and now you run the risk of infection if you don't pass the sac soon. If you want to get pregnant again, you want to avoid infection as much as possible as it may creat scar tissue and lower your chances. Ask them to put you under (which they are usually very good about) and it will be less painful and less bleeding than what you have already experienced. It is quite a safe procedure.
I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. I would have been 11 weeks today...and our babies also died in the 8th week so you and I have a lot in common. Hang in there.
Posted By: MaRy93
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/26/06 12:29 AM
Hi i'm 13 years old and i was 11 weeks pregnant and i found out by ultrasound that i had a miscarriage my i feel like it's my falt i was wondering if maybe u and i could talk and maybe the both of us would feel better
Posted By: Karaleen
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/26/06 10:18 PM
I'm so sorry you lost your baby. It is a very hard thing at any age. I am 39 (3 times older than you)...but as women...or emerging women...it is the same loss for all of us.
First of all...miscarriage is NEVER anyone's fault unless they set out to intentioally harm the pregnancy. I'm sure God had other plans for this little soul and there was nothing you could have done to save it.
You are quite young to be having babies though, so I suspect this pregnancy came as a suprise? It doesn't make you love the little bean any less...and once life is created..it is life and a part of us so we want to see it continued. Please know that you should not feel any responsibility for the miscarriage. If it was meant to be, it would have continued.
I wondered as well if there was anything that I did to cause the loss of my twins. We were in Hawaii the week they stopped growing. I wondered if flying was an issue or swimming in the ocean or being jarred around on a kayake trip could have contributed....but alas...those are silly thoughts. The female body is designed to do this....those little babies are soooo protected in the 1st 12 weeks...a little altitude and extra activity will have no bearing on the pregnancy. Women do drugs, drink, fall down stairs, get in car accidents and run marathons pregnant and go on to have healthy babies....Bottom line...God called your baby up early to fulfill bigger and better things.
Did your parents know about this? Your boyfriend? Or are you suffering alone? I can't imagine not having the support of all my family and friends...so if you are alone...I am here. Just drop me a note.
Posted By: Thel
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/27/06 10:14 AM
Karaleen, you are such a caring lovely women. Thanks so much for giving such support, especially when you are going through the same. I didn't realise our babies died around the same time and would've been the same age. Atleast they are all together being overwhelmed by Love from God...
Mary, am sorry also to hear about your miscarriage. I am twice your age at 27 and still we ask ourselves these questions. Karaleen is right though, some statistics say 1 in 5 pregnancies end in miscarriage. Mainly this is because the embryo was not developing as it should. The baby would probably not have been strong enough to live on it's own in this life. The human body is amazing the way it naturally knows this. You take care of yourself. Let yourself heal, and know that we support you.
Lots of prayers for you both,
BTW, went for the D&C yesterday. Its true I do feel much better now. It's all over with. Today am in bed feeling abit run down but moving on. Thanks again for all your support! xx
Posted By: Karaleen
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 10/27/06 07:34 PM
I'm so glad to hear you are feeling better. I felt the exact same way once the D&C was done. Up until that point, we still hold some tiny thought that all may be okay because our own body is not responding to the medical information we have been given. I was still very sad about the loss, but after the D&C, I found it easier to look to the future and set new hopes and goals in place. It is so hard to move on while being held in one spot, waiting for an event that is sure to be unpleasant.
My husband was great throughout this whole ordeal. He was so excited about this pregnancy and especially twins. This is a 2nd marriage for us both and he and his x-wife tried to have children for years and it never worked. He thought it was all him...turns out it was not just him afterall. We did achieve our pregnancy through the help of an infertility specialist using IUI. So there was a lot of effort put forth here. But he was supportive and wonderful through it all, even though he was sad too. By the time we had the D&C....he was ready to get his "wife back" as he told me. Once I was feeling good again (it only took about 2 days after D&C)....I made a date for us where we both put on nice clothes, fancied up and went out to a nice dinner. I drank a glass of wine for the 1st time in 10 weeks and ate ceasar salad dressing without worrying about any raw egg ingredients. We had to find our silver linings somewhere....so we found them with each other. Afterall, that is where the magic began...right?
What I am trying to say is...don't be afraid to go on living. There are beautiful things ahead for you...including children. We talk about our little babies and we miss the magic they brought to a short period in our lives...but we talk just as much about our future babies and how that magic can repeat itself and bring better things. We are moving ahead with another round of fertility treatments once my body gets back on track. Now the hard part is being patient. I'm not so good at that.
Sending much love your way.
Mary...hope you are doing well...haven't seen any new posts from you...my thoughts are with you.
Posted By: melissa1020
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 01/05/07 01:08 AM
some time i regret my d&c but i know it was the right thing to do because when you have a d&c you can send your baby to the patholagest and find out why you misscarried i also had an option to burie my little girl that i wold not have had if she was misscarried nutrly.i do wish i would have got to hold her one time and see what she looks like thats why i regert it. i lost her at 18 weeks btw.
Posted By: Sandra W
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 01/20/07 04:31 PM
There are pros and cons to both options, obviously, but as a woman who has miscarried twice in a year (once at 9 weeks, natural miscarriage; once at 11 weeks, D&C) I thought I'd share my thoughts. Do not underestimate how awful allowing nature to take it's course can be! I chose, with by doctor's and my husband's support, to allow the cramping and bleeding to run their course the first time. Over several hours the contractions increased until the pain was right off the scale, they lasted longer than the space in between them, I was vomiting every 10 minutes. I wound up needing morphine and anti-nausea medication at the local ER -- it literally felt like I was being torn apart inside. And I've never felt so alone.
The second time, my body was slow on figuring out that my baby had died, and I told my doctor I didn't want to wait and he did the D&C that afternoon under general anesthesia. There was almost no pain, very little bleeding, and I was taken care of by supportive nurses and caring doctors who were used to working with patients like me (unlike ER where they seemed uncomfortable with me.) It was definitely physically easier on my body.
The emotional pain is probably worse this time round but that's not a function of the D&C ... I'm struggling with the idea that my body may be killing my babies.
Posted By: SBH
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 02/16/07 07:53 AM
I am 18 years old and was experiencing severe pelvic pain and was rushed to the hospital. After getting admitted and taking a urine test the doctor told me I was pregnant(my first pregnancy). I should have been around 7 weeks but by my hormone level was showing I should have been only around 2 weeks.
I was supposed to go back in to check my hormone level within the next two days. By the next day I was bleeding and was told I had a miscarriage. They set me up with an appointment to see a OB/GYN and he suggested I try to go through the miscarriage naturally. I have an appointment to see him three weeks from now to make sure everything is clear and healthy. If it's not I'm supposed to have a D&C.
My bleeding is decreasing a lot and I haven't passed any tissue yet and I'm frightened I'll have to do a D&C. I have heard it's really scary to have a D&C and am looking for some encouraging words and some support through this difficult time. My family doesn't know how to react, especially since I'm barely 18, unwed and am the first in my family to have a miscarriage.
Posted By: torivic
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 02/27/07 10:32 PM
Sorry about your loss, Ihad a D &C one week ago, and i can tell you it was not painful, people in the surgery room were very suportive and nice. so, do not worry.
the only bad thing is that i am having nigthmares, did somebody had experience this...
Posted By: mwispg79
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 03/01/07 07:40 PM
I lost my baby back in September,(i was 17 weeks), and it has been the hardest thing I have ever gone through. I haven't had nightmares, but I have had many problems emotionally since then. This was the second baby I had lost, but this one I actually got to see in the ultra sound and know what I was having. My first I lost in the first month. With my second miscarriage I was given the option to wait untill I miscarry naturaly or the D&C and I chose the D&C. I couldn't deal with the thought of walking around with a baby that I would never hold. They were able to find out that I have some gene called MTHFR (methyleneterahydrofolate). They say that the next time I get pregnant they can fix this and i've done some research of it and what I can do now before I get pregnant again, but I was wondering if anyone has this same gene? And if so, have you been able to have a 'normal' pregnancy and what should I do?
Posted By: torivic
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 03/02/07 06:27 PM
How did they detect this gene, and how can they fix it?
I had a bligthed ovum, so the doctor said that probably my body had absorved most of the early embryo, and he sent the sac and whatever remaining tissue to pathology, and they only said that it was not canceriginous, but i do not think he asked for a chromosomic test. Is it expensive?
My nightmares stoped, but yesterday i had a terrible diziness a headache, and today i had some dark brown red bllod discharge (is this like my period?). It has been one week exactly since the d&C, and i had some spotting, almost nothing until today
Also the last 3 days my ovaries felt like they were swell a lot a little bit of pain there. Has somebody feel this?
ANd, a weird bump had grown behaind my right ear (i hope is just a glandule cebaceus or something like that). Sometimes i feel that ishould have waited for a natural mc instead of having a D&C, and my body is complaining because i mess it up and is confused
. Hope the rest of the year will be better
Posted By: mwispg79
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 03/06/07 01:03 PM
Well, i'm not real sure how they actually detected it. All i know is that they tested the baby and all the tissue and didn't find anything so they took 11 tubes of blood from me and tested me for everything and this is what came up. It was kinda expensive, but I had insurance so they have paid for most of it. And in the end, does cost really matter if it will prevent this from happening again?
I too had that Dark brown/red discharge. I was concerned about it so I kept calling my doctor and he assured me it was ok. The pain is probably because you are doing too much. When I had my D&C I was on bed rest for almost two weeks because I had so much bleeding and some pain. Just take it easy for the next week or so and give your self time to heal, physically and mentaly.
Posted By: Bindi
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 04/14/07 03:15 AM
Just from personal experience i had 4 D&C's as i had no heartbeats and waited a couple of weeks but would never miscarriage naturally and i've also had 3 natural miscarriages. After the D&C's i was definately emotionally upset but physically able to get on with everything but after the natural ones the last 3 years has been absolute hell with periods afterwards, hormones all over the place no energy.I kept going to the doctors they kept telling me my hcg levels said there was no longer a pregnancy but 8 months after hell every month they put me in 4 a D&C again. I am better now but the natural losses took a big toll on my body over 3 years.
Posted By: lisababe
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 05/06/07 06:48 PM
I had a natural miscarriage 10 weeks ago i was 7 weeks pregnant and it came as a big shock because i have already had 3 healthy pregnancies. iam still very upset and i have not had a period since my miscarriage 10 weeks ago iam worried can anyone help me who has been through the same thing on not having any periods since miscarriage iam hoping i get one soon i have already been and seen my doctor he said wait a bit longer if no sign of period still go back to him
Posted By: Bindi
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 05/08/07 09:59 AM
So sorry to hear of your loss. Its such a traumatic time loosing a baby let alone having to make all these decisions.
This is only my personal experience but i have had 5 D&C's and 2-3 natural miscarriages totalling 7-8 miscarriages and i have to say my body definately healed much better physically after D&C's.
I had natural losses on my 5,6 and 7th babies and i had so much trouble afterwards with periods, hormones,fatigue.Thats only my experience though i know everybody is different.Good luck to you and i hope theres a brighter future for you and your family.
Posted By: Thel
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 05/09/07 07:15 PM
Sorry to hear about your miscarriage. It is a very sad natural process. I also had to wait a long time to get my period. I miscarried the beginning of Oct 06, had the D&C 3 weeks later, and did not get my period til mid March this year (about 20 weeks). It was a long wait.
I went to the doctor at 10 weeks and she told me to wait a little longer. I kept on doing pregnancy tests and worrying that something was wrong.
At around 20 weeks later I went to the doctor and she wrote me a prescription to get some tests done. However that night I'd a little bleeding and the next day I got my period!! Crazy eh...(My periods gone straight back to its normal 29day cycle.)
Hopefully you do not have to wait as long as I did for your period. My doctor said it wasn't common to have to wait so long for the first period, but every womans body is different. Maybe if you are worried, go see you doctor and see what she says.
Will keep you & all you strong women in my prayers...
Posted By: Nicole44
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 09/23/07 10:24 AM
I'm truly amazed by the loving posts here. Well done, to all of you.
I have had two miscarriages this year, and while I too, wanted to let nature take her course ( and she did, at five weeks and then at nine weeks), in retrospect, I wish I had had a D&C for the second m/c. Not because I seek medical proceedures, but because I was in pain, and worried, and would have felt safe with my wonderful doc.
The one positive of miscarrying at home was being able to bury the tiny being. We (my husband and I) took her? him? to a lovely grove of willows near our home, and had a peaceful moment together.
I wish there were some way we who have experienced this loss could be heard in a better way. I had NO IDEA how many women experience miscarriage, nor how many of us feel we have no one who will listen to our pain. Bravo to all of you who are speaking so lovingly to each other, and blessings to you all.
Posted By: pixiebella
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 01/30/08 01:54 PM
I've been reading this thread and am a bit confused. i seem to have been put through something different to everyone else.
My first miscarrige the "products" came out themselves but this time as i was further along my body didnt seem to know what was going on. I had the scan (sorry if you have read this already in another thread) and the baby had died and i was given a tablet to make things start coming away and was told to come back 2 days later and when i did they put tablets inside me to start contractions. It was horrible. I had an abortion at 19 (im 26 now and ready for children and i wasnt then) and the abortion was the same as this!
This time tho it didnt go as well and i didnt want it to be happening. The doctors and nurses were lovely to me (werent when i had an abortion). I wanted to blame the abortion for it happening but the consultant says there is no way that is the reason.
I got into difficulty this time because the tiny placenta was over the cervix leaving it open so i was bleeding a lot and clotting and the cerix couldnt close so the doctor and to go in and get it out. Was the most horrible experience and i wish they had put me to sleep. I suppose i should be grateful as everything is out and there will be no infection and the post mortem can be done.
Posted By: AmyH1979
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 02/01/08 05:41 AM
When i had my miscarriage, my gyn didnt want to do a D&C because of my bleeding disorder. She was afraid i might bleed out, she also told me that it look like my body was taking care of everything. I was about 14 weeks pregant when i miscarried. I told told i would start bleeding heavier and if the bleeding got really bad i was to call them. I had a schedule appt 4 days later and my mom was coming with me 4 hours before my appt. I was having really bad cramping. Worst pain i have every had. I began passing very large blood clots. My mom called the office and they push my appt up and told me to come in now. Within 10 minutes of leaving home, I started to hemmorage badly. They had to do an emerancy D&C. I lost so much blood and i was still bleeding. My blood pressure was high to. i was admitted into the hopital.The doctor who perform the D&C kept asking why this wasnt done 4 days ago. My mom is a nurse and said she can handle anything but when it comes to ur owe child its scary. She said that they saved my life that day.
Posted By: Aleash
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 02/07/08 04:04 PM
Here is my story. . I have to get this off my chest. .
I'm currently 23 years old and when I found out I was pregnant we weren't "planning" it. . we just bought our first home in November and a week later found out I was pregnant. . we were SO excited. . so was everyone in our family. . so all through December I got to be a happy mother to be.. Christmas time was so fun because I knew next year I'd have a little baby to share it with. . the feeling of knowing you have a baby in you is just MAGIC. . I felt on top of the world every single day. . and so did Josh my fiance'. Unfortunatly I had a miscarriage on Jan 2nd. . way to start the new year huh? I had a prenatal appointment on Dec 10th and they figured I was about 8 weeks and I wasn't due to go back till the end of January for my first sonogram. . New years day I started spotting and called my doctor who told me if it gets any worse to go to the ER. I hung up with him and me and my fiance' went to the hospital. (I couldn't wait). . when we got there they sent me for 2 ultrasounds and a little later the doctor came in and told us we had what they called it I can't quite remember.. but there was no fetus.. but everything else.. the sac, etc was there.. So they sent us home and said I would have to schedule a D & C. Josh and I went home and talked and cried for awhile. .and then went to bed. I woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and still very little blood just spotting. . and then after I laid back down I felt funny so I went back into the bathroom and I was bleeding very bad. . I mean I never thought anyone would bleed like this down there. . We called 911 and they came and got me and we went back into the ER. . called our parents/grandparents. They admitted me and I stayed until the morning when my doctor came to see me. . they sent me down for 2 more ultrasounds and said I still needed to have a D & C. . I was scared.. I never even went to the hospital before this and never had any kind of surgery.. the nurses and doctor were so nice and supportive though that they made me feel alot better. A little later they took me down and I was put asleep. . everything went fine. .and a little later they sent me home. The next 2 weeks I was a nervous wreck, I kept thinking I was gonna start bleeding again bad like that night(but I never did). . just spotting here and there. . a little like a period from time to time. I went for my one week check up and started back on birth control (which I was on when I got pregnant). . and now I have started my first period since all of this happened. . and I keep getting scared thinking that something is wrong. . but I have been assured that what is going on is my body going back to normal. . I get so sad from time to time. . thinking of what could of been. . should of been. The thing that scares me most is wondering if I will ever be able to have a baby. . this was my first pregnancy and the one thing I keep thinking is that I am so afraid to try again. . Josh and I are getting married on October 25th this year. . and that has been keeping me busy planning etc. . and we have decided that after we get married and feel "ready" we will try again. . This time I will be obsessed with doing it right.. getting off the birth control. . no drinking when we start trying. . vitamins. . etc. . though in the back of my mind I know that doing those things doesn't gurantee me anything. . I just feel lost and confused all the time. . and I read how alot of people try again as soon as there doctor says it is ok. . but I don't feel that way and I don't know if that is wrong? I don't know. . I know this was kind of a rambling of different things. . but I had to get it out.
Best wishes everyone. . Alicia
Posted By: jenniferlou
Re: Natural miscarriage vs. D&C - 03/04/08 05:30 AM
I just had a miscarriage two days ago. I had a D&C and I feel funny about that too. I worry about bleeding and infection. I wonder,"Did they get everything?" But I am trying to hang in there. I know it is a standard surgery that they do all of the time, but I have never had a sugery of any kind before. And it bothers me. I can relate to you.