I went to a family dinner at my aunt's house yesterday. I sat down in the chair my three year old niece had apparently just got up from at the kitchen table. The child threw an all-out fit over the chair. She told ME to get up because it was HER seat. What angered me was that not one of the 7 adults in the room (including her mother and grandmother) did anything about it. They actually agreed with the child and told me I should get up because she was sitting there first! They told me I was aggravating her.

I refused to give in to a bratty child and remained in the seat. The other adults in the room, (all breeders) labeled me mean and cold-hearted. They said I'll be nicer when I have children of my own. After that episode, I'd sooner cut off my leg then have a kid.

When I was a kid, at family gatherings (or when adult friends of my parents were over) the chairs belonged to the adults. If an adult got up, the children could sit in the chair, but upon return of the adult, the child had to give up the seat. As a kid, I remember being annoyed. Now I understand, and appreciate that my parents were so adament about children having their place. It was not just my parents who were like this, but all of my relatives-and I have a big family!

I don't understand how this whole change in mentality happened. I am sorry you were treated so disrespectfully.

Thanks Chaco, I appreciate that. I was also raised to give my seat to adults, as were my relatives. I hope my cousin goes back to our roots, and teach her daughter to respect others.

Aggravating HER?!!! That's ridiculous! I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Lady T. The priorities are all wrong ...

That's hideous. Well done for standing your ground and sticking to your principles. When I was in my 20's I was at a family gathering at my parent's house. My two nephews and niece were getting overexcited and running around making heaps of noise. They were taking over the room and there was no reason for them to be inside (they were just showing off).Someone told them to go outside but they ignored the instruction and everyone was being really waffly about it. So I said firmly "Go outside NOW". The kids scarpered, but then I got teased by my family "listen to you - so bossy, what are you going to be like as a mother etc".

I always stick to principles like that. We went to a local cafe with my friend, her husband and their two kids (the ones I look after sometimes). These are lovely kids, but energetic. They kept getting up and down from their seats and kept bumping the seats of the people at the next table who were trying to have a quiet coffee. My friend and her husband said nothing - frankly, I think they have spent so much time being parents and running after their kids that they've forgotten what's appropriate behaviour in cafes - they seemed insensitive to it. So I said "N and L, please stay in your seats - every time you get up and down, it is annoying fot the people sitting at the next table who are trying to have a quiet coffee". So they sat down and calmed down. My friend wasn't mad or anything, but it is hard to be the one who has to express these things. It sure impressed my DH though,who has old-fashioned values (one of the reasons I married him...).

I agree the perimeters of giving kids their deserved respect has gotten out of whack, (by some parents.) Children should be brought up to respect adults, and all living things, in an appropriate way.

I think what the 'parent' group was seeing was the age. At 2-3 you can't get a child to understand reason, so well. You really have to distract them or endure the tantrum. I suspect everyone else was charmed by the little vixen and allowed her, her own way. Possibly too often.

My kids would never have dared approach an adult and even suggest that they had dibs on the chair. So, possibly it is a good thing that this child feels safe enough around you to make the statement.

At any rate, the tantrum is more about overindulgence, than lack of respect, at this age. Which, if left unchecked, in the future could cause her real emotional problems with self control.

That said, a lot of very good parents (mon.-fri) will fore-go discipline at a party. (they want to relax, they are too busy to notice, they want the kids not to be stressed, they find it embarrassing, etc.) I do think that you had every right to scoop (kidding) an empty chair. And shouldn't have been picked on. I am going on the assumption that you wouldn't have thrown her out of the chair if she had still been in it, or pitched a fit, if another adult had taken the chair when you got up.

Some kids (not all) do have an inflated sense of entitlement these days

PS - 'Since when do we answer to kids?'

We have always had to, in our actions and words. We are guides and mentors. All of us. If we want a planet where the children are respectful human beings. We must be all of that, ourselves. Not just the parents. All humanity.

I don't know a thing about raising kids, but I'd take issue with that. If one of her pearents had got up and immediately time-outed her, I'd think she'd get the message pretty quick that she'd done something unacceptable. Once the tantrum's underway it's a bit harder, I guess, but most kids aren't THAT dumb.


And to me, this is the very time that they SHOULD be doing something about it ... the child needs to learn to behave in public, and why should the other people in the room have to put up with it?

And i think that is part of the problem "when out parents will forgo discipline"

I think parents these days (not all ) try to be their childs friends and fail to use every opportunity to teach a child.

A three year old that reacts that way is used to throwing tantrums and getting what they want. plain & simple. Then these same parents turn around and don't realize why they're child at 7 or 8 has become a spoiled brat. You start teaching your child from the moment it's born.

When a child starts hitting at 10-11 months its because he/she doesnt know better when they do it when they are 3 its because they havn't been taught better.

I'm the 2nd oldest of 5 my kid sister would have tantrums everywhere. I didnt stand for it --u either cut it out or we go home plain & simple

sorry for the long windiness of this but it just really angers me when adults are so worried about upsetting kids and then wonder why people dislike their "pride & joy"

i could go on forever but i think for no my rant is done

I agree some parents are too afraid to discipline. As I said, my kids would never have even tried that, but, if it had been my child, I would have told him to share, and removed him from the room, if the fit continued.

At one point I would occasionally look after a friend of my child. When the mom would pick him up, she wouldn't leave. Eventually I realized, she was to embarrassed to argue with him, but also knew he wasn't going to go home willingly. A few times my kids came home kicking and screaming. But, when 'mom' says it's time to go, we go. And, they learn to respect the momma.

The reasons are varied, but, it mostly has to do with the emotional growth of the mother. Women are often afraid to reveal their true colors. They don't want to appear ugly or bitchy. I don't think it has to be either. Just pick the child up and go home, or to a quiet spot where the child can calm down, and everyone else doesn't have to endure it.

Mothering is tough, in that there is a huge shame element she has to be willing to crawl out from under, and strut her stuff. Life is complicated.

Hey Paula,

I just want to say your one of the few & far between. & your right I think the majority of the people who don't discipline their children think they're doing their child a world of good instead of teaching them.

& i think that's why so many people have gotten turned off of children.

It's a shame I remember growing up & I was treated like a child that i was. It [censored] me off but now that I'm older I understand why.

I am childfree but as i said I've had a hand in raising my younger sisters and what i find is lacking by most parents is teaching thier children proper social skills. Teaching kids that you cant always get what you want, that you do not disrespect your elders etc etc etc.

It's a tough job being a parent But i wish more people who thought of having kids, thought about the responsibility that comes along with it!

People have put forth good points on this topic, so all I have to wonder is why were the elders so blase about this child's tantrum? Neither of my grandparents would have let me go nuts at that age, and certainly not my father.

Good points, Pika!

LastingOne - I think that some grandparents are afraid that if they question discipline (or lack of) then they will be cut off from their grandchildren, or at least not see them as often. I know it sounds crazy, but after talking with some relatives about my dad's cousin's kids behavior at his party, this is the answer I am getting about why no one says anything about the kids going crazy.

Also, I think I've read something similar in Dear Abby. :-)

Speaking of answering to kids... So I'm on a ferry ride this afternoon heading home from a nice weekend away. The boat was crawling with about 20 kids of varying ages, running, screaming, totally unsupervised, loud, obnoxious, just about as bad as it gets. This seemed to be the continuation of someone's birthday party. One of the parents came by, as loud and inconsiderate as the kids (wonder where the kids learned it from). I got up and expressed my irritation that a. someone would get hurt (they were running up and down slippery steps) though frankly i couldn't have cared less at the time, and b. annoying everyone on the boat. The moron responds to me "well, they are not all my kids." I suggested that he partake in supervising them anyway. Shortly thereafter I thought of all the wonderful and nasty responses I could have come up with ("Oh, I'm shocked, you seem like such a virile young stallion" etc etc). Alas.
The sad thing is that these little monsters were just taking after their loud and obnoxious parents and the cycle just repeats and repeats. While we were walking home, I whined to DH "Oh, I want a baby, darling." He got it without missing a beat. Amusingly, on the way out to our trip, I ran into someone from high school whom i hadnt seen in years. She is a midwife (which i think is cool, mostly) She just had kid #2 and was talking about wanting "a few more" I almost laughed out loud. I was telling her about our upcoming trip to south america and she said "oh, i guess that is what young people without kids do". YOU BET IT IS!

I am reading a great book by Bud Harris, "fire and the Rose." He states that the way we live establishes the fundamental terms of our humanity; therefore, the way we love reflects the same.

Throughout the book he dicussses the way we are collectively stuck in a way of life, and that individually we need to grow to 'grow' our society.

We need to search inwardly for answers to causes of our anxieties and frustrations. It's not so much about where we go or what the people around us are doing, it's how we are able to transform within ourselves and our spirits.

How another person lives, or parents, is not as important to society as how we manage our own ability to transform and not solidify into an image of ourselves.

Kids do need to learn self-control, (from parents.) Adults need to learn not to control themselves so much. In that I don't mean to be irresponsible. I mean not to be afraid of society's opinion (or the future) if you break out and take the path less traveled.

Wow, there's a novel thought!!

Sorry, couldn;t resist ... on a board full of people who've chosen to do just that!

A friend of mine was on a ferry-ride. Kids were making fun of her thick glasses. One child slapped at her glasses. She grabbed his arm and was going to report him, as the ferry docked. A man jumped to the kid's defense, yanking her arm. Totally embarrassing for her. The boys got away. She came home in tears.

Verbal attack mostly leads to confrontation. What I mean is that is not a less traveled path. Emotional dexterity and strength is what I mean. As adults, we need to grow a whole lot more as individuals, than is now the acceptable norm. Then we well be better parents and neighbors.

And parents need to raise kids to be emotionally intelligent. I can't stress how much I feel this is the first step, in fixing things.

That's a doozy of a first step, in that it will never happen. Having a child doesn't automatically make you emotionally intelligent, or able to teach that quality in someone else. I know a lot of people would say I'm being gloomy or pessimistic, but if that's what it's going to take to "fix things" then we're doomed.

We are in desperate shape. Schools are starting to teach emotional intellengence to kids. They now know it will help the bullying problems.

Becoming a parent doesn't make you emotionally intelligent. But, becoming a parent opens a floodgate, and wide spectrum of emotions. It gives you the fresh opportunity to improve. Expecially if the way is illuminated.

Dr Bud Harris, in "Fire and the Rose" is calling upon humanity, parents and those without kids, to emotionally deepen ourselves. As all of life is connected, he states, this is the way to improve society. Society will change if we first change ourselves.

What are the options: [censored] about others, or get the word out, through helping and 'being' that it is cool to be emotionally, spiritually, strengthened.

I think it's sad that schools are having to be the ones to teach children how to behave.

We were just out to brunch. It is a little fancy, but mostly relaxed. My nephew was so good. We were there over 2 hours, and he didn't get fussy until right near the end, but all he did was walk around our table and play a little with everyone (we were all in the same group.)

The kid behind us, however, was not as good. He was the same age as my nephew (about 3.) He wasn't bothering us, but he was taking all the cloth napkins, lying them on the floor, and dancing on them. He did bump into my chair once, but it was okay. It was just that he was doing this napkin thing throughout the whole meal, and at one point he was running around crazily, but everyone at his table was ignoring him. I think the only reason I noticed him was that I saw how much better my nephew is in public.

My point is, my nephew knows how to act in public, and if he starts to get carried away, he does listen if we tell him to stop. We also take turns engaging him and keeping him occupied when he gets bored. He's also SO much better than all the kids we ever see anywhere, even if they are behaving well.

Children are given way too much leeway in affecting their surroundings. I seem to remember having to respect my elders, and not mouthing off whenever I felt like.

This last weekend, I think I kind of broke a friendship over a child. It goes like this:

I invited Nancy and John over for a wine tasting night (my wife had just got back from napa valley the previous day). They agreed and upon arrival, without warning me, brought their 4 year old, and a 6 year old they were babysitting for the day. I was upset at this point because I knew the night was ruined. But I stayed the course, and hoped for the best. At one point in the night the topic went into friendly bantering over football, my wife being a 49ers fan (poor sad child) and myself being a pats fan. About 3 minutes into this conversation I am interupted by Nancy who tells me "we don't talk sports in front of the children, it encourages competiveness, and we are against that". I was flabbergasted, but was in too much shock to respond. After dinner, we sat down on the back porch to begin the wine tasting portion of the evening. I am again confronted by Nancy "we were actually hoping we could skip this part, I don't like to drink in front of the children." I almost died. Wine tasting being the theme of the night, and then being told its a no-go was rather disheartining. My blood pressure began to boil, but a good natured ankle kick from my better half kept me from performing a homicide. The night goes on...akwardly but goes on. I soon learn that I can't discuss politics, sports, work-place occurances (I work in an emergency room...too scary) or just about anything else.
Towards the end of the night ( everyone was in the house at this point ) I attempt to sneak outside to smoke. I have never been one to smoke in front of children, I understand the whole second hand smoke thing, and I respect it. So I sneak out the back, so that no one notices..and i make the mistake of standing in front of the kitchen window. One of the children sees this, reports to Nancy, who then comes out and asks if I could please stop smoking, as I was being a bad role model.

So I snapped, started yelling, and kicked them all out...an hour later I have a message on my cell phone telling me I was rude and a bad host, and that they expected an apology. I havn't responded yet, and don't intend to.

My point in all this is exactly what this topic started with, Since when do we answer to kids? Is it really my responsibility to curtail an evening for two uninvited children? Am i wrong in this? Opinions? Anyone?

You were absolutely right in your reactions. Not only did your guests begin the evening in a rude manner by unexpectedly bringing children to an adult-themed evening, but they attempted to take over your home. I understand not discussing inappropriate matter in front of children, but they went too far. If they didn't want the kids exposed to normal, adult conversation, they shouldn't have brought them. I applaud you for having the courtesy to step out of your home to avoid smoking around the children. Your guest had no right to accuse you of being a bad role model. They did not respect you or your home.

Lady T, you're kinder than me. I've never heard such a load of BS in my entire life. These people come into your home, with uninvited guests in tow, and tell you how to behave? Unbelievable!

I'd think they can whistle for an apology. If you never see them again, it's no loss.

I think you behaved entirely appropriately. I can't imagine having someone behave so rudely when you invited them to your home. Most of my husband and I's friends have kids and they don't behave this way. It's not as if you were swearing or saying anything explicit. Most kids enjoy sports of some type so that whole no sports deal is beyond me. I guess some gorey emergency room stuff could be a little too scarey, but I'm sure most of your work stories are fine. If it was me I'd find new friends. Which is easier said that done, but I wouldn't appologize or have them over again if it was me.

Definately a disturbing tale. I always wonder what kids brought up like this are like when they start school. You would think they'd have difficultly relating to other kids. What with the zero competition in their lives and thinking that everyone who has a glass of wine is evil.

In a way, it's the adults of today who are to blame for children's behaviour. Instead of giving discipline and clear boundaries, instead of letting them fail or do badly, we've been guilty of building egos.

Children no longer loose a race, they "try their hardest". Child rights have become paramount, so that if a parent tries to smack a naughty child, they are accused of abuse.

To me, it's no wonder that we have out of control kids and young adults (aka Britney Spears & Lindsay Lohan) as they've never been told "no" and had to take responsibility for their actions.

I only hope that the damage hasn't gone too far!

Skeeter,
You have my sympathy. I would have felt exactly the same. I've never seen parent-friends act like that, and if they did, I would have a similar reaction. That's crazy!! It doesn't sound like you'll be missing much in distancing yourself. Good gods.

Unbelievable! In addition to the good points already made, when is this woman going to wake up to the fact that you can�t and shouldn�t shelter your kids from everything all the time? There are reasonable limits, perhaps it would not be best for a little kid to hear about sewing up gunshot wounds in the ER for example, but for f%$##�s sake!
These kids are going to grow up with no concept of the real world, used to everything being tailored to their needs, mommy always bossing everyone around to make things perfect and are in for a real shock when they finally escape into the world. Talk about a control freak. Is this woman going tell the school not to teach about all the not so nice things in the world? Is the kid not going to be allowed to go to gym class, lest there be some competition? This is the best recipe for some messed up spoiled brat kids who will most likely rebel to the extreme if I ever heard of one. You should feel free to speak your mind to these people, and tell them you stand by whatever it was you yelled at them. As for the friendship � good riddance! (i'm in a very grumpy mood tonight!)

Unbelievable! In addition to the good points already made, when is this woman going to wake up to the fact that you can�t and shouldn�t shelter your kids from everything all the time? There are reasonable limits, perhaps it would not be best for a little kid to hear about sewing up gunshot wounds in the ER for example, but for f%$##�s sake!
These kids are going to grow up with no concept of the real world, used to everything being tailored to their needs, mommy always bossing everyone around to make things perfect and are in for a real shock when they finally escape into the world. Talk about a control freak. Is this woman going tell the school not to teach about all the not so nice things in the world? Is the kid not going to be allowed to go to gym class, lest there be some competition? This is the best recipe for some messed up spoiled brat kids who will most likely rebel to the extreme if I ever heard of one. You should feel free to speak your mind to these people, and tell them you stand by whatever it was you yelled at them. As for the friendship � good riddance! (In a very grumpy mood tonight!)

i would have kicked them out sooner. Don't talk sports because it encourages competitiveness? There's nothing wrong with competitiveness....maybe they could look at it as teaching kids about sportsmanship.

Doesnt like to drink in front of children? Why were you getting smashed? Maybe it shows children about responsible drinking. I come from a greek family and as strict as we are when it came to liquor we'd even be given a sip here & there it wasnt this forbidden thing that for some kids end up being binge drinking.

As for the smoking geez louise, its not like you had the kid in a headlock and breathing your smoke down his throat!

im still flabbergasted by the talkin sports....wow

Good for you skeeter, its your house and nothing that you did seemed inappropriate to do in front of children. talking sports, wine tasting...Hey send them to my house for a big fat greek christmas, they'd probably have a heart attack! If anything they should have had the courtesy to let you know that they had the kids....those are probably the same people who bring kids to weddings even though the invitation states no children under 12.

****applause skeeter***

Skeeter - possibly the way that you reacted wasn't the best way to react, but honestly, I would have done the EXACT same thing. They were way out of line, and I would have blown my top, too (which is how I've learned it's not the best way to deal.)

You have my sympathies. Those friends definitely were being rude and inconsiderate. If they had to babysit that night, they should have either asked to reschedule or called to ask if bringing the kids was okay and let you know the "rules" (and I'm sure once you were aware of the "rules" you would have suggested rescheduling.)

I hope everything works out one way or another.

You have my full support, Skeeter. They were in YOUR HOME. If you can bear it, please stand your ground and don't back down.

Ah, ok, I can understand this. I can understand there wanting to be a certain level of wanting to be able to take charge of one's own life and their brood, but that seems horribly manipulative. I do know it happens though and it is sad.


And Skeeter, my word! You invited these folks into your home and all this occurred?!!! The parents are going to have some neurotic children on their hands because of their own behavior! And to call you a bad host?! I am flabbergasted. It's a wine tasting party, of course there will be drinking! And to censor you like that, oh I'm fuming for you. It seems like they were there for a free meal on their own terms!

That is the funniest story I've heard in a while. I think your friend is a bit of a 'nut-job.' (sorry) You could have handled it better: by calling the whole thing off when they arrived.

My dad used to end these situations by saying, "It takes all kinds to make the world go around."

Back to reality: as I said, we can really only fix ourselves, and hope the theory 'if more individuals change, the masses change, society will change,' works. But, don't miss the point. We are all tied together, we do need to grow, also. (and a lot)

Skeeter,

While it is disappointing to lose a friendship, the situation was rather, well, funny, in my opinion. First of all, you invited them to your place for a wine tasting event. The fact that it was an "adults only" event, why did they bring kids into your home when they know that these kids would react that way to certain situations? It's your guests' fault, IMHO.

Competitiveness? Bad role model? Hmm, I guess it really depends on how the kids were brought up. I remember when I was younger, my dad would smoke and drink in front of us. If I ask him about it, he'd just say that it's for "big guys" only.

Anyway, it is your home, you invited them over, and it is just right that they should follow your rules. Who are they to tell you off?

And frankly, I pity those kids. I just hope they don't grow up with a too-goody point of view in life. They wouldn't know how to "live" in the real world.

*UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE*

I got to work tonight and had a rather nasty email in my inbox. I was chastised for my actions and told that I need to learn to be more of an adult, and to set an example. Being the child that I so aparently am, I responded with 14 pages of LOLOLOLOL. I hope it gets my point across.

Skeeter
P.S. Besides I figured it was better than just chewing her out, since I'm relatively convinced she wouldn't understand the concept.

I'm still trying to figure out what the woman thought she was going to be drinking at a wine tasting.

Oh, BTW - send her copies of what we are writing here - and let her know that even those of us that have kids think she is insane!

Firstly, the fact that the theme of the evening was "wine tasting" and they urgently hoped to "skip that part" -- ugh. It was your home, your event, your rules. If the "rules" had been negotiated beforehand, that is one thing. But just appearing and hoping that you would bow down to their rules (children being there or not), they are the ones out of line.

My couple friend C and her husband J are true Christian believers, without being pushy/openly evangelistic. My wife L and I are atheists -- not in-your-face, but if pushed, we will respond. We are both as opposite on that spectrum as two groups of people can be. But these people are very good friends. When we do get together for the twice yearly visit (they live 600+ miles away), we agree that religious and/or theological discussions are off the table, because a) I don't care and b) I will want to respond why I think they are wrong. In return, I won't start any anti-religious discussions. The important thing is that these issues have been discussed and agreed upon beforehand. That frees us up to have a good time.

I pity those children -- I do. They will be drug abusers, they will fall into the wrong crowd. If you deny the existence of such "real life" issues when they are young, they will be overwhelmed when it does hit them. They will have little to no basis for knowing what is right or wrong. I was introduced to those concepts by my parents, and I turned out to be a good, caring, moral person.

I think these parents were overprotected as children and scarred in their youth by facing the realities of real life -- and to "protect their children", they are "protecting them" by shielding them from the hells of real life. It sounds like a continuation of a never-ending cycle. If these children have children, they probably will do the SAME THING -- keeping the cycle going. Sad, IMO.

I had some people over and experienced this, but in a different way. 6 adults, 1 five year old- 6 patio chairs. I hadn't even realized that we had accidentally invited 7 bodies over and that we didn't have enough chairs. So, the last person has nowhere to sit and I'm in a daze... we don't have any ohter chairs, let me go look around.... finally borrowed one from the neighbor's porch, but it was never even an option that the little girl would sit on her mother's lap or go run around and play, nothing. I was a little shocked.

I posted by reply back on page one when this was about chairs.... Now it seems out of place. How can parents be so obnoxious? Not only is it obnoxious to bring your own child, uninvited, to a person's house, but to bring an EXTRA child?

And all the other things everyone else has said... I agree.

we don't talk sports in front of the children, it encourages competiveness, and we are against that.

WTF!!?? Does this woman think these kids won't have to compete for a job? to get into college?

I soon learn that I can't discuss politics, sports, work-place occurrences (I work in an emergency room...too scary) or just about anything else.
Can't discuss politics? Gee, I recall discussing debating the current issues/events as early as grade 7 history. Does this woman want to raise a couple of uninformed children? She sounds like a complete idiot to me.

Glad to hear you got your vasectomy done today and it went well for you. Enjoy a relaxing weekend of watching football, movies or whatever you want.

Mike

Skeeter, if you talk to these "friends" again, you can tell them that they were the last straw and you immediately scheduled a vasectomy after this lovely evening with them! LOL!!!

CIndy

That's funny, Cindy! Skeeter, the scenario you outlined is so bizarre! If anything, yes, someone that is visiting should be on good behavior, and not the other way around! It was really courteous of you to go outside to smoke, when you were at home. Especially when it was supposed to be an adult night to begin with. My Mom's friend has spent a couple of Christmases with us b/c she has alienated her own family. None of us smoke, and she comes over and smokes up the house, despite the fact that my young nephew is there. I think this is incredibly rude. You would think she would be polite enough not to smoke in a nonsmoking house. We shouldn't have to ask her not to smoke.

But you were in your own home, and went outside. You were more than nice, and these people are over the top. They were invited to a wine tasting - they shouldn't have brought kids, especially if they don't even want their kids to even SEE alcohol. They should have called ahead of time, knowing that it was a wine tasting, and asked you if you minded if they brought their child, and another along. I wouldn't mourn the loss of this friendship. These people need to get over themselves.