I thought Id start a new post. I hope Im not doing something considered contraversial. I dont mean people any offence.

This is the question that probably sets the difference between the 3 major religions in the world (Being Islam, Christianity and Judaism)

The question being asked is because many of the practices of Christians today when comparing with the the teachings of the old and new testament are not from the teachings of the prophets (Peace be upon them) but from the teachings of Paul.

Maybe the readers can add to the example im about to give below and possibly explain why Christians do the opposite of what Jesus (Peace be upon him) asked and how he acted and follow the teachings of Paul.



As opposed to



And...



As opposed to

Hi Kibrilis!

I'm not sure if you were just paraphrasing, but I don't have the exact same wording in my Bible as you do.

[color:"red"] Matthew 19:16-17; Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you wnat to enter into life, keep the commendments."[/color]

You need to take this in context - Jesus had not yet died and been ressurected to save the world - so that was not an option yet. After His death and ressurection is when Paul is stating in Colossians that we must go through Christ for our salvation. (A much simpler - yet more humbling and personal way to do it! IMHO <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

As for the 2nd part; I believe it is saying in Acts that by believing in Christ and accepting Him as Savior - that we are assured of salvation, but it is almost impossible to follow all of the commandments. Even if you just take the 10 commandments - I think I've broken more than half of them, and even since I've been a Christian. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

If I had to rely on me being able to live up to those standards - I'd be Hellbound!

Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, because the laws are good - they were put down by God, but He is more important than all the laws. If one were to be able to follow all the laws, but did not accept Jesus - then there would still be no point. (Plus I'm not sure it would be possible!) But by accepting Jesus, we want to follow the laws (or should).

Of course then we could get into a debate on which laws God set down and which ones the Pharisees set down. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
(But we'll save that for another thread.)

Thank you B.H. I couldn't have said it better myself. Looks like K7 is picking and choosing parts of verses to try and sway us away.

K7 are you what He was referring to in Matthew 7:15?
"Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

The average Christian is extremely naive concerning the devil and his tactics, not realizing that he is the Master Deceiver, who never slackens in his attack on everyone but especially on the Christian and the true church.

Every believer should be on constant guard to judge everything he reads and hears as to its conformity to the Bible, not denominational teachings, not traditions, not sayings and beliefs of any one person, no matter how prominent he or she is. No human is infallible, remember.

K7 one thing that you must always be aware of is that Christians are not God, they are Godly humans. In otherwords, Christians do their best to follow the example of Christ but we are flawed and weak, we will sin and we will disappoint God. Many look at that and feel we are hypocrites, only those that judge others are, the rest are only human and doing our best.

In reading Paul I have a lot of questions and issues that bother me as well. I tended to skip over him and go to the writings of Peter and John.

I understand what you are saying though. How can Jesus have said one thing and then Paul say another. BH hit it on the nail - Jesus had not yet died yet. Those he preached to could not be saved mearly by believing in him they still had only the laws of Moses and Jesus as an example followed them completly.

I was just faced with a question in regards to the law of Moses and being saved..... If you are a Christian who knowingly commits adultry and continues, are you still saved?

As for Islam, Judism and Christianity.

Islam and Judism have many differences, the most important being who did God call Abraham to sacrifice, Judism says Issac by taking him away and not telling him until the last moment. Islam says it was Ishmeal and it was done not away from others and Ishmael knew right away and went willingly to the alter.

Judism and Christianity are the same until Jesus comes then the difference is only in the belief that Jesus is the son of God and has absolved us of our sins as being the ultimate sacrifice so that we no longer have to ceromoniously keep ourselves clean in Gods eyes and offer a blood sacrafice regularly to cleans our souls of sin. Jesus' blood wiped away the legalism of Judism. Many of the Judaic laws come out of common law rather than the 10 commandments.

Christians and Jews alike are called to follow the 10 commandments. Where we differ is in our response when we break one. Judaic law has many ceromonies and sacrifices to cleans ones soul. Christians need only to bear their soul to Jesus and wholeheartedly ask for his forgivness. This is not a license to sin, as the sinner must honestly be sorry for his sin and want to do better.

Another difference in Judism and Christianity that is important to mention is the Holy Spirit. In the Pentacost the Holy Spirit came down to the followers of Christ and by doing so literally changed them on the inside. With the Holy Spirit your values, opinions, and outlooks change. You actively seek God everyday because the Holy Spirit drives you to. You whole heartedly try to leave a Christ life and not sin on purpose. You are stronger in the face of temptation. With it a true Christ follower is noticably different without having to try.

I believe, yes. We all goof up! And we are still human, even if we are saved. I think of the Holy Spirit as a really powerful addition to my conscience, one that affects my heart as well as my mind. But if I want something badly enough, I can tune out that voice that is going "Uh-uh, shouldn't do that!"

All that needs to be done is admit the sin and ask forgiveness. But pride gets in the way of that a lot of times (boy do I know about that!) And that is Satan's way of keeping us from making up with the One who loves us most. We can never judge a person's heart; so we'll never know just how much their sin has poured guilt and hurt on them on the inside. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think K7 may have come across a Chirstian or someone who took pieces of the Bible out of context for what ever reason!!! I have run across the same thing myself!!! K7 makes a valid point though!!! so many Chirstians pick and choose what they want to believe and how they want to believe it!!! We are not God but if we want others to understand what we believe we need to check and make sure that what we believe is what Jesus lived and what God wants us to believe and not part of the Bible taken out of context!!!

I know K7 is not a Chirstian and probly tring to convert us... but i think he makes a great point and would like us to see it!!! I have a big issue with this is literal and this is a moral tale and didnt happen and this is in the old testment and out of date and this was for cleanlness and this is real and this we believe... I call it grocry store faith!!! you can buy your ice cream and skip the eggplant!!! Jesus was CLEARLY this last blood Sacafice and thats the only laws I know for sure that were abolished!!!
On the other hand i eat bacon and ham and i dont leave the town when its that time of the month!!! so...

My Friends, I want to thank you for your reactions.
You shouldnt blame yourselves from pick and chooseing parts of your religion.
Ive been studying Christianity for a while now and I have also been studying Islam in the same way. And in both religions culture has a big part to play.

There is a saying.... "You can introduce religion into your culture, but you cant introduce culture into your religion"

And the problem a lot of us have is that we practice what our people practice.We may read a command in our scripture and think about it for a split second and than say to yourselves well my mum and dad have always done this so I am too.

Or sometimes even more often although we may know a ruling in our religion, we choose to ignore it because we cant make room for it in our lives. we dont want to change our lfe styles for our religion but we say we are Christian or Muslim or Buddist etc.
These issues are a test from God. We mustn't forget this life is temporary. It is only a moment in time compared to the here after which is an infinity of time.
Both Christians and Muslims will say we believe in a day of judgment. But not many of the two prepare for it.

By ignoring what the scriptures say we cannot be pleasing God.

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
(Al-Qur'an 29:2 (Al-Ankaboot [The Spider])

By asking you the questions I asked I was hoping you may be interested in delving into Chrisitianity.
Learn how the early Christians practiced, how they were persecuted for practising their faith and learn how at one point there were two types of Christianity being practiced. One was forcefully being eradicated.

Many people today are looking to spiritual answers. I feel this is another baby boomer phenomenon. As the largest part of our population becomes older they find they have the time to ask the spiritual questions they didn't have the time to ask before. As they do our media begins to be effected drawing other generations into the same questions... the da vinci code is an example of this. The book holy blood holy grail, which has the same theories, was written in the 80's and did not have the same impact as Brown's book. In the 80's the baby boomers were concentrating on making money, raising children, and gathering material possessions; spirituality didn't figure into their day to day.

I do find it amazing though that many will read books by today's spiritual gurus on a number of different spiritual ideals but never take the time to read the Bible.

Many Christians do not read the Bible or know exactly what it is they believe, they show up Sunday listen say a prayer and then go on with their week. For these people I am sad because they are missing out on so much that God wants to do in their hearts and lives.

Today there are so many contemporary translations and study bibles that provide notes that the argument, its too hard to understand just doesn't wash anymore.

I encourage all Christians to start by reading a chapter before they go to bed, if anything it'll help you get to sleep.

If someone were to go into the wiccan forum and ask a similar question about wicca, what would happen?

I dunno should I?

Try and see.

I have its under research in the Wicca forum. they are open honest and they dont bash or try to convert any one and they are very very nice!!!! i love talking in the forum!!!

This is not a controversial question at all....

Christ is the founder of Christianity. Christians are just christ followers. There are alot of judgemental people who hide behind so called Christianity and follow rules set out by their particular religious sect; true Christians follow Jesus Christ and base thier lives on following his example.

True Christianity is based on Christ and He is the Alpha and the Omega of our life...

I think you missed the point.
The thing that has baffled me and the reason I have created this post is because I dont see Christians following the example of Christ but of Paul.

In fact people today abandon The rules of Paul also. What does that leave of Christianity?
Even some of the most religious figures in Christianity will follow some of the rules and ignore a lot.

How many of the women cover their hair as they visit the churches for worship as ordered in corinthians?
Most of the women I see pouring out of church on sunday wear less than they would probably wear to bed!!!

If people wanna side step every rule and say that was than and this is now. Lets just give it another name alltogether and stop smearing the name of Christ.(Peace be upon him)

Following Christ doesn't happen first by following a set of rules. Maybe you should study Grace. And maybe try to engage in practicing grace instead of judgement. Grace demands that we accept others based on the only fact that God loves them just as they are. God doesn't play favorites.

Jesus meets us where we are as we are. He doesn't require us to present ourselves on the outside pretending to be pure, but on the inside as being wholly committed to following Him, standing up for Him, and giving our lives to Him. As I say below, He doesn't hold up a standard, He holds up a mirror.

I didn't miss the point, the title of this thread is "Who is the Founder of Christianity?" My answer is perfectly adequate in responding.

By the way, if what some people wear to church upsets you, don't go. And i agree that the Word of God is as relevant today as it was when it was written.

OK Kibrilis! You've got me delving, <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jesus didn't get hung up on all the rules, because he would rather see people loved and in touch with Him, than proper and with no heart. He stayed all over the scribes and the Pharisees because they followed the laws to the "dotting of the Is and the crossing of the Ts", but they had no real heart of worship for God.

in Mark 12: 28- 31 it says:

[color:"red"]28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, �perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, �Which is the first commandment of all?�

29 Jesus answered him, �The first of all the commandments is: �Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.�� �This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: �You shall love your neighbor as yourself.� There is no other commandment greater than these.�[/color]

Jesus' first and foremost thoughts dealt with love, not with how people should dress.

But <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I do believe that Christians should dress modestly all the time (not just at church), because to do otherwise is to tempt others into having thoughts that they shoudln't have. I'm not saying women have to wear the dresses to their ankles and veils over their faces, but modest dress for everyone is appropriate.

And I think it is also safer in this age of pedophiles and rapists, to be quite frank. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am curious though about this.....

Why is it OK for you to attack Christians but we get told we're attacking because we defend ourselves.

If you started a Who founded Wicca and then started attacking their answers and judging them would they not get defensive?

Are you really seeking an answer or just trying to cause a stir?

You are saying 2 different things altogether. The word of God is either relevenat or it is not.
If it is so relevant today, why is it not important to follow the rules?
It just seems like there are 2 voices in bible. One of God and his prophets (Peace be upon them) and one of Paul.

All I am looking for is clarification of this.
I am not insulting Christians. I have many Christian friends.

Im not laughing at your belief, that would be insulting.
I am looking for answers. Forgive me my friends Im not trying to insult people.

Ok then, if we agree that Jesus lived and taught love and Mercy and God is Mercful, then thats where i will start!!! Jesus taught us how to live by living the law (the Word made Flesh) he was perfect and had no sin!!! He walked among the Gentils (non Jews can spell)to show them how to live and what God wanted from His people. Also to show the Poloticials that there was more to obeying the law!!! the politicians made the temple into a den of thiefes and Jesus torn it down!!! Jesus was the Last Sacrifies!!!! As for the rules... Jesus does not expect us to be perfect to believe. we are to believe and learn the Word of God and become Chirst Like... the bible is not out of date old or new testement... we are not picking on you and i think this and the others have answered your question!!! even i can see thourgh this ruse and i am more incline to believe people are trying to learn and understand others but... you try me some times!!! lol

Here is your answer. It IS important to follow rules. Jesus said He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill. The law instructs. Jesus saves. The law tells us what is sin. Jesus saves us from the consequences of breaking those laws. Jesus said there would be many who cried out to Him," Lord,Lord" but He would not let them enter the Kingdom of Heaven because He said they were practicing "lawlessness" If you are following Christ you will follow the law as it is written on your heart. You cannot get saved by relying on yourself to follow the law without Christ because you are imperfect and you will fail. Then you would be condemned without Christ because your sins would not be covered by Him.

If you have any more questions just ask. I do not get offended and you cannot ask a question too tough for me.

And by the way, God Himself is the founder of Christianity.

I do have a question for you emaster101 ....Are you christian ?

The best way for me to explain will only be understood if you are a parent.

As a parent I love my Children, I have rules in place to help them have an easier life. For example - don't play in the street so they won't get hurt.

Everyday they break rules, don't listen, try my patience, and make me look like a terrible parent. I don't love them any less, I don't throw them out of the house, I forgive them and move on.

This is what humanity's relationship with God is like. We are the children and he is the parent. Some kids are good, others bad, some follow the rules and some break them. He doesn't love anyone any less for it.

Some Christians are better examples of Jesus and God, others let him down. The only way to know the truth about God is to find him for yourself directly, not through others.

I came accross this verse this morning in my readings and I thought it was very applicable to this discussion:

2 Timothy Chapter 3 Verse 1-5

"You should know this Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothering sacred. The will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control; they will be cruel and have no interest in what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride and love pleasure rather than God. They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. You must stay away from people like that."

Since my Bible is a study Bible there are notes. The note for the last sentence 3:5 is:

"The 'act' or appearance of being religious includes going to church, knowing Christian doctrine, using Christian cliches, and following a communities traditions. Such practices can make a person look good, but if the inner attitudes of belief, love, and worship are lacking, the outer appearance in meaningless. Paul warns us not to be deceived by people who only appear to be Christians. It may be difficult to distinguish tehm from true Christians at first, but their daily behavior will give them away. The characteristics described in 3:2-4 are unmistakeable."

Paul wrote his letters to encourage the new churches to be an example of Christ, to set themselves aside from society as different. He wrote during the years that Churches began and had little real persecution to when Nero was throwing them to the lions. His writings are meant to be a blueprint for the Church (group of people) to live up to and a way for them to recognize when they are straying away from God.

The Gospels were written to tell us the life and teachings of Christ so that we would know how as individuals we are to live. They were written before there was a church and before there was wayward and mislead Christian individuals.

I thank everyone for their replies. Very nice. Especially the one about timothy.

I am a Muslim and I believe in Christ. I believe that following the teachings of Christ is a means to save me from my sins. Jesus is someone who submitted himself to God and so that is what I do.
Yes no one is perfect but to completely ignore the 10 commandments and than just say believe is crazy!

The first commandment:


People not only created an idol by drawing christ and sculpting his image, they worshipped him as a partner to God.
The first commadnment is very clear ladies and gentlemen.
You cant say that verse was for a time only or it is ambigious!!

And what I am trying to say here is that if we follow the rules of Christ, we wouldnt need what Paul has to say.
Christ was the one who came to correct the Jews not Paul.
Christ was sent by God not Paul.

And Christ also made it clear in the Gospels that he was a prophet. He was refered to as a prophet. It is Paul that has made an idol to be worhsipped out of him.
So how can we say Jesus the Messiah is the author of Christianity when we follow the doctrine of Paul and discard the commandments that Jesus came to reinstate?

On top of that there is about 40 versions of the bible, all different and not just in translation, there are countless errors that contradict one another and no one asks questions. Just believe?

There is no Wiccan "bible" or one book, therefore, it would be pointless to ask who founded it. There are many good books written by some who founded their own type of it, like Gardnerian (the Gardners).

Early man "founded" or started Wicca, since it is simply a pagan, earth-based, spiritual path that works in harmony with seasons, doing right by other people, and observances from nature.

Since the Creator made nature, then it easily can be said that God founded Wicca, and all other religions.

LOL you should be a comedian.
seriously thats like saying man invented pornography so since God invented man than God invented pornography which makes it ok.

We needed a comedian in the post. Some people were getting a bit tense...
nice to see you join in :-)

That makes sense dosent it? It sounds quite logical to me and I think you make a very valid point.

Jesus IS God. He is part of the holy trinity. Three manifestations of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Think of it like this. You have two hemispheres in your brain. They have two different functions and do different things. But you have one mind. Three parts of God but one God. Jesus said He was God and He was worshipped by many during His ministry. The Bible gives numerous examples of this. He was worshipped by the Magi who came from the east when He was born. He forgave sins. Only God can do that. He knew people's thoughts. Only God can do that. Jesus is God who manifested Himself in the flesh to be a sacrifice for sin.

kibrisli7,
Give me ONE example of what you think is a contradiction in the Bible.

I tell you what emaster ill list 10 today. and if you ask for 2 ill list 20. How does that sound?

Firstly before I do so. Show me where in the bible Jesus says "I AM GOD"

ok her it goes....

1.How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?
(a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
(b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)

2. Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?
(a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)
(b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)

3.Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the
numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:
(a) 29,818 (Ezra)
(b) 31,089 (Nehem

4. When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with
him hear the voice?
(a) Yes (Acts9: 7)
(b) No (Acts22: 9)

5.When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?
(a) Yes (Acts 26:14)
(b) No (Acts 9:7)

6.Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul�s duties were to be?
(a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18)
(b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he

7. Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after?
(a) After (Mark 14:12-17)
(b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other
disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When
Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate�s judgment hail because they wanted to stay clean to
eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgment was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth
hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14)

8.Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?
(a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)
(b) No. (John 12:27)

9. In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did �he move away
from his disciples to pray?
(a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42)
(b) One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46)

10.What was Jesus� instruction for his disciples?
(a) �Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me� (Matthew 2 8: 10)
(b) �Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and
your God� (John 20:17)

By the way on the last quoute Jesus (PBUH) said he was going to ascend to his Father and your Father and to his God and your God. I thought they were seeing God??!!

I have lots more examples. Even better ones in fact. For me the best one is still the 1st commandment. Do not make idols and images of God and worship them.

I have only listed these because I have been challenged to. I can list much more because foretunately for me there is a lot more. please lets keep it friendly.
Emaster. I think you should read from the beginning of my post on the authenticity of the bible.

Ive always challanged people before they can tell me what the bible says about how many Gods there are and who is what God, please first let us establish which book is the word of God and how we have proof of it.
I cannot accept emaster's answer. I am aware of what the bible says my friend. Thats the not the main problem. The main problem is who says it inthe bible and the bible itself.

My friends in the Quran we are told that the past scriptures were also divine. And we are told by God to believe in the Torah (The 5 books of Moses (PBUH) and the Injil (The scripture given to Jesus (PBUH) but we only have a corrupt version of the Torah and not the injil but 4 witness accounts by 4 guys who claim to be apostles.

Today Christian scholars concede that the writers of the gospels mark,mathew,luke and john were probably not the actuall deciples. you would have to question your own scholars however not me.

There is nothing that exists that is not a product of the Creator. How could you call him or her the Creator, otherwise?

Personally, I have nothing against pornography; it's only the wrong use of it (the poison in a man's heart, and not the inanimate object) that is wrong. Nudity and the act of mating are not evil. Photography is not evil. It's the lust in a man's heart that makes it so; that takes a beautiful act and makes it somehow sinister. Furthermore, once could split hairs on what the word even means. In some countries, a Madonna video might be pornography. Or a Calvin Klein ad.

God gave to man the ability to make a bullet and a gun. It's the ill use of them and the loss of rational mind (what some might call Satan) that is evil, not the inanimate object.

Lastly, calling a nature-based religion as being outside the province of God, or that it is comedic to speak of them as being created by God, is not very tolerant of you. I believe all religions speak of the same truths. The belief that God has a particular name or particular book and that all others are wrong in their beliefs is what leads to culture-toppling, intolerance, and war.

No tension, just an open discussion. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK i still want to know what the Quran is!!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" /> I thought it was another name for the Old Testement!!! SO... SOMEONE ANYONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME!!!! clueless here lol ps and what is the Injil? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

in my oppinion Everything both good and evil, pretty or ugly comes from God!!! God created everything for a purpose like my computer he gave someone the wonderful idea of how to make a computer for the sole purpose of driving me insane!!!! lol not really but i have to laugh or thorw the thing out the window!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" />

The Quran is another book altogether. It was a book that came 600 hundred years after Christ.
It is not the old testament and it is not the New testament.
In the Islam section I have written a post on the Quran please go and visit it freebubbles2.

The injil is the word used for the gospel of Jesus in Arabic.

In reference to the post by barbaro, I do not agree with you that pornography is ok. would Jesus agree with that?
And what defines its wrong use.
Please forgive what I am about to say it is by no means and insult just an example.
I want you to imagine your own mother in a pornographic film. Is it still ok? Is it still ok if it was one of our sisters?
I dont think it is. It is only ok when we can achieve a sexual thrill from it.

God created partners of His creation for a reason. So we could see that we were not self sufficient. We cannot reproduce on our own. He made us partners one to another in order that we may marvel at His abilities and gave us sexual pleasure from each other.
But Sex should be confined to a couple in wedlock. As the commandment says thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.
In what way is the use of pornograhy deemed wrong in your opinion?

And also on the issue of all religions being from god, how can God ask us in 1 religion only to worship Him, while in an other to worship the sun and the grass etc while in another religion we are told to worship 20 Gods that resemble half human half animals. Im sure god does not intend worship to be this confusing.
God created everything but man changed what he created through his own free will. God lets man live free. thats how other religions other than the divine will of God comes about.

No tension <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

kilbrisi7,
O.K. Let's do these one at a time. First, In Genesis when God made reference to two animals He was referring to animals in general. In the culture at that time it was customary to give the broad picture first and then go back and give the details. This sometimes makes it seem as if they are retelling the story but not so. So, God said bring two of each as a means of survival for that species. In Genesis 7:2 He makes a distinction between clean and unclean animals. That is because the clean animals were the ones they were allowed to eat and sacrifice as an offering so He instructed them to bring seven of the clean because they would need more for these other purposes. The last verse you quote was an overview and it too is a general statement like the first. It does not contain all the details that are in the middle verses. It gives the impression of the completeness of the act. You can almost hear the door slam shut. I will pause now to allow your comments before we go on to the next.

Where does Jesus say He is God? John 10:30. " I and the Father are one." John 8:58. "I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews understood what He was saying. In both instances they picked up stones to throw at Him. In John 8:58 He asks, " For what works do you stone me?" They reply that it is not for the works but for calling Himself God. I can give much more evidence than this if you like. Much more.

Regarding the baths. It is not talking about individual baths but one large "molten sea". It is describing the actual amount of water versus its capabilty. It could hold three thousand baths ( bath referring to an individual volume) but they obviously filled it only two thirds full. With two thousand baths. Sounds like a lot. I think that is the impression they are trying to convey.

First, kibrisli, I'd like to take your analogy you used to me and reword it a bit.

God created man and man created the bible and the Koran; therefore it is comedic to suggest that God created the bible.

Would Jesus agree that pornography is ok? Since he defended Mary Magdelene, who allegedly was a prostitute (a person who is paid to do acts in the nude just like a porn actor), I do not believe he would think such a thing in and of itself is evil or bad. It's how a person reacts to it, or what they do with it, where the evil enters the heart.

My mother and sister are their own free moral agents. Should they make that choice, I do not judge them nor what they do. Doesn't your own holy book say only God should judge others?

Bad uses of pornography: in an obsessive manner, outside wedlock, involving those of minor age or otherwise mentally incapcitated. Inside wedlock, it can be a helpful tool for couples. Artistically, the human body is a marvel and an art form.

As for the last part of your post, I've stated this before but I'll reiterate it here for you since we have not talked before. You can't derive proof that one is the sole religion by citing from the very book which is the basis of the religion. That's circular logic. You are trying to prove the truth of something that's in the text by citing to the text itself. An analogy is me trying to prove the existence of magic wands by citing to where the story of the magic wands originated - i.e., Harry Potter.

But that's where faith comes in, of course. And having faith in something is wonderful. However, faith and piety are two different things. The pious believe they are most holy. Problem with that is when one develops piety they often lose humility.

In all things, there are good and bad, yin and yang. Same with religions. Therefore, it is possible to realize that all religions are speaking of the same eternal truths but using different terminology. By whatever path you seek to achieve the good, it is the end result that matters and not whether you took a train, bus, goat cart, skateboard or your own two feet to get there.

Go Barbaro,
First Mary Magdelene was never stated in the Bible to be a prostitute. She came from a city that had a lot of prostitution and it was stated that she had seven demons cast out of her but it was speculation over the years that have led people to believe she was a prostitute. The Bible never specifically says that. Secondly, the Bible WAS written by God in this respect; He used men as instruments just as you used your computer to write your last post. He wrote His Word on the hearts of men so they could then transcribe it onto paper. He did this because His Word is the living Word of a living God. He also did it so as to make those who transcribed it onto paper passionate ambassadors of His Word. Just handing someone a book and saying, "study this", would not have been as effective.

The Koran is strictly manmade. It is the false writings of a false prophet.

How can you say that emaster?
prove it. Show me proof that says it is man made.

You are in the right to say anything you please... but with reason. And I would like to see yours since you make such a bold statement.
you wish people to take your point of you as I want people to take mine...

The difference is that when I make a statement I back it up with some evidence.
I said the bible was corrupted and had many errors and I showed it.
I said the Quran was from God revealed to his final messenger Muhammad (pbuh) and I stand by what I say.

Ifthe Quran is indeed strictly man made by a false prophet you must have some reason for your statement.

I wouldnt just makes statements on any religion without a reason or proof.
I have studied comparitive religion for probably about 4 -5 years now. I know the bible better than most Christians I meet. I truly look at every religion in a critical manner and that includes mine. I spend as much time speaking to Muslims about the way they practice as I do to Christians.
But I can only try to correct muslims that are not practicing properly because I have not been able to find errors in Islam.

Im not repeating what I hear from my preacher in a mosque. I have spent years researching into the history things.

I bet you only have your opinion to back you up. Maybe your preacher in your place of worship told you what you said, maybe it was something you read in the media. But you definately didnt think about what you said and you definately do not know anything about Islam and its prophet (Peace of God be upo him) before you made your comment.
Prove me wrong or take back what you say.

In regards to the list of contridictions in the bible..... What a list -- Ok here it goes:

1) Genisis the # of animals......

"Take along seven pairs of each animal that I have approved for eating and for sacrifice, and take one pair of each of the others. 3. Then select seven pairs of every kind of bird. There must be a male and female in each pair to ensure that every kind of living creature will survive the flood."

Although at first glance the numbers may seem like a contridiction, its not. 7 pairs of those that were approved for eating and sacrificing and those animals that were not approved were to survive by being brought on board as pairs.

Ok that's #1.... On to #2......

# 2

1 Kings 7:26 says "The walls of the Sea were about three inches thick and its rim flared out like a cup and resembled a lily blossom. It could hold about 11,000 gallons of water.

2 Chronicles 4:5 says " The walls of the Sea were about three inches thick and its rim flared out like a cup and resembled a lily blossom. It could hold about 16,500 gallons of water."

There is a definite number difference. The gallons are measurement of volume. 1 Kings says 11,000 gallons or 2000 baths, 2 Chronicles says 16,500 gallons or 3000 baths.

Lets look at the authors etc.

Kings the writer and date is unknown, the assumption is it was Jeremiah. He lived in 627 BC.

Chronicles was written by Ezra in 430 BC.

Kings was written approx 200 before Chronicles. Solomen's temple was completed in 959BC, approx 300 years before Kings was written.

How things are measured today is very very very different from how things were measured 300 years ago, even 200 years ago. It is a plausible assumption to believe that the measure of 1 bath was different in the year 430BC than in the year 630BC and different still from the year 959BC.

It can be assumed with a sense of accuracy that the issue about the difference in measures is that the amount of one unit had changed.

If you are adding these up your right they are not going to be the same. This is due to the practice at the time of counting only the male adults of each family and only recording the amounts of those families who were important or had absolute proof of their geneology. There would have been others who had lost their proof and thereby they would not be counted in the family.

Ezra 3:62 "But they had lost their genealogical records, so they were not allowed to serve as priests." They were not counted amoung the family names because of this as well.

In order to say the Bible is being contridictory you are just quoting two scriptures and not looking at the context or variables.

Luke wrote the book of Acts in 63AD. He was a historian of the time and hired by Theophilus to record who Jesus was and what was happening within the new Church. Theophilus couldn't drop everything to follow these people around but he wanted to know everything that was happening so he sent Luke.

In Acts 9:7 Luke has recorded the event shortly after it happened when Saul arrived in Damascus. "The men with Saul stood speechless with surprise, for they heard the sound of someone's voice, but they saw no one."

In Acts 22:9 Luke is recording a speach that Paul is making to the Jews who want him stoned to death. The Roman commander has agreed to let him speak to them. He tells them about the moment of his conversion when Jesus came to him. "The people with me saw the light but didn't hear the voice."

Obviously a slip of the tongue on the part of Paul. It does prove however that Luke was dutiful in his recording of everything that happened as it happened. If he had wanted to edit the book he would have fixed this to ensure there was no contridiction. But he didn't, he wrote the truth and the facts without editing.

In Acts 26:14 Paul is explaining why he is being persecuted to King Agrippa who is sending him to the Emperor in Rome. Once again Paul tells about his trip to Damascus. "We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you gight againstmy will."

So # 5 is the same as # 4. It only proves that those who wrote the Bible took it so seriously they didn't change a thing, just wrote what they saw as they saw it. It was not then put together and edited by anyone.

It should also be noted that Luke would have sent each chapter off to his employer after writing it, just like a letter. He wouldn't of waited until he was done.

Before I continue on here disproving Kibrisli7's 10 points of Biblical Contridiction I just have so much more I want to write first.

God is not one, it is 3. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. To better understand how three can be one I'm going to get into philosophy of psychology.

Dualism theorises that we are not one we are two parts of one, we are body and spirit. When one dies the body is still with us but a part of them is gone.

I think that we can go beyond this and say that each individual is actually made up of 3 parts: A body, A spirit and A mind.

If a human is made of 3 parts and was made in the image of God we can thereby assume that God is also made up of 3 parts:

The Body: Jesus Christ
The Spirit: The Holy Spirit
The Mind: The Father

So when Jesus came to earth he was the Body of God come to us as a Creation of God. He was in fact God and Man.

When we die, we split from our body. When Judgement day comes we are to regain our bodies in perfect form. So maybe in the spiritual realm of things our minds can split from our body. I cannot prove or disprove that we are three distinct parts of a whole. But I do believe that the Trinity is in fact three distinct parts of one hole, something we cannot understand. At least not until we are able to use the other 90% of our brains that sit in our head waiting to be used.

Mary Magdalene... To clarify.

WAS NOT A PROSTITUTE!!! She was a wealthy women who had 7 demons in her and Jesus cast them out. In other words, she was crazy and Jesus made her sane.

The reason she was mistaken as a prostitute is because in his Easter address Pope Gregory X (or was it V?) Anyway some Pope Gregory got her mixed up with the prostitute in the previous chapter that was going to be stoned to death and was saved when Jesus asked that only the man who had not sinned be able to cast the first stone. They are two different women.

There is a lot of confusion if you don't read closly as to which Mary is which, it was an extremly popular name.

As for the 1st commandment that I keep hearing about.

How many Protestant churches have you been in? I can't disagree that Catholism has it's idols, they are everywhere in a Catholic church. I can't put a voice to this because I am not Catholic. I know a lot of them, but I am not one.

There are so many other Christian denominations without the visual statues that adorn the Catholic Churches. There is the cross, a symbol to remind us of Christs sacrifice for us, but that is all.

Writers of the Gospels:

Matthew - Was a Diciple of Jesus, he was the tax collector his audience was the Jews, this is why he starts out with the geneology of Jesus. Geneology is and was extermly important to the Jews.

Mark - A doctor and a companion to Paul. He travelled with the disciples and other early church followers. He may have followed Jesus, but was not a member of the inner circle. He would have talked to Mary, the mother of Jesus, James, the brother of Jesus, the disciples and the list goes on and on. He wrote the story of Jesus as a story.

Luke - As per my earlier post a historian under the employment of Theophilus. Unlike historians of today, he did not record his opinions but only the facts that he gained by interviewing eyewitnesses and friends of Jesus.

John - A disciple of Jesus, the disciple that Jesus loved more than the others. John was in Jesus' inner circle and knew more details than most. He was more than a follower of Christ, he was his friend. He was also the only Disciple to be an eye witness to the crucifixion.

OK I can't spell. that was established earlier too.

OK here we go again #6.......

Lets look at the passage first: Acts 26:16-18 "Now stand up! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and my witness. You are to tell the world about this experience and about other times I will appear to you. 17 And I will protect you from both your own people nad the Gentiles. Yes, I am going to send you to the Gentiles, 18. to open their eyes so they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be give a place amoung God's people, who are set apart by faith in me."

The verse you are comparing it to is out of context, and incomplete.

Yes in Chapter 9 Luke wrote that Jesus said to Saul 5"I am Jesus the one you are persecuting, 6 Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you are to do." In verses 7-9 he tells how Paul then picked himself up, went to damascus and was blind for 3 days. 10. "Now there was a believer in Damascus named Ananias. the Lord spoke to him in a vision, calling "Ananias!" "yes lord," he replied. 11. The Lord Said "Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas (not Iscarot). When you arrive, ask for Saul of Tarsus. He is praying to me right now. 12. I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying his hands on him so that he can see again.]

It goes on and records the Lord telling Ananias that Saul is the chosen one to go to the gentiles.....

As you can see from the bolded quote that God was sending Saul or Paul visions before Ananias came and laied hands on him so he could see again. It was Ananias that then taught him more and more about Jesus.

Once again this is not a contridiction, only an omission of detail and a verse taken out of context.

There is so much more on here that I wish to respond to with Biblical and Historical truth. But it's becoming a long long long monolouge that I'm sure no one wants to read anymore.

Besides, its late and I'm tired. I'll pick up where I left off later. Besides so far I've disproved 50% of what this guys book has told him are contradictions. I know you have more and I'm sure I'm going to hear more of them.

I do have one last thought though. You mention that Islam believes in the Torah and the law of Moses and the words that Moses wrote.

Well here is a huge contridiction for you......

The dead sea scrolls prove that the copies we have today are almost 100% the same as they were in Biblical Times. They prove without a doubt that the Jewish scribes took their job so seriously they copied every word just as it was from the previous copy and there was no editing. This is a proven fact from a historical discovery. OK ....

So here's the contridiction:

Moses wrote in the book of Genesis that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son and that this son was Isaac.

Islam believes it was Ishmeal and that Isaac was not a miracle child from God. That it is Ishmeal and his decendants that are the true choosen people and that the Jews are not the true followers of God.

So if you believe so much in the writings of Moses how come you are able to throw what Moses wrote about Isaac being the sacrifical son aside so easily?

Very interesting indeed <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK -- I can't seem to stop.....

John 19:7 "The Jewish Leaders replied, By our laws he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God."

John 17:21 "My prayer for all of them is that they will be one, just as you and I are one, Father-that just as you are in me and I am in you, so they will be in us, and the world will believe you sent me."

How many old Testement Prophets talked about God being in them and them being in God?

John 17:1 "Father, the time has come. Glorify your son so he can give glory back to you.

John 17:3 "and this is the way to have eternal life-to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4. I brought glory to you here on earth by doing everything you told me to do. 5. and now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began .

I could quote the Gospels for pages upon pages where Jesus claims to be the son of God, to be one with God, to have existed with God before the world began.

Thanks, Carennedy. I do not believe she was a prostitute either. But I didn't realize many modern Christians no longer believe it as well.

No most think she married Jesus thanks to Dan Brown, but that's a whole different topic on another forum.

OK -- this is where Paul really annoys me. I'm not sure what his deal was but he did write as though he felt women were useless ninny's who needed to be protected by men.

Over and Over again women are the ones to be converted and support his ministry. Throughout the Gospels it was the women who wholeheartingly loved Jesus and followed without question.

Maybe its just the way Paul writes..... But he does come accross as a sexist.

Where did you get your information regarding the Bible?

The Gospels were written with 100 years of Jesus death by those who saw him and knew him or knew disciples.

There are 5000 copies of the gospels and thousands of more fragments that date within 55 years of the original Gospels being written. These books and fragments were collected throughout the lands from Isreal to Rome. To compare this to other ancient documents, there are 7 copies of Plato's works. There is only 1 copy of Tactis's Annuals of Imperial Rome. There are 9 copies of historian Josephus's book The Jewish War, these copies are dated centuries after the originals.

When these books were compared it was found that 98.5% the same. The other 1.5% were found to be grammatical and spelling differences. Not differences in dogma.

Although there are thousands of translations of the Bible, (if you take into consideration the number of languages and the number of versions.) when compared they say the same thing. Want proof, read the Case for Christ and the Case for the Bible by Lee Strobel. He interviewed a number of scholars and then wrote these books about what they told him.

The multiple translations only mean that Christianity is universal and accessable to all cultures. The same can not be said of many of the other religions where you would have to learn a whole new language and adopt a whole different culture to be accepted.

Here is a really interesting article on Christianity and the Muslim world and how although they are so different they want some of the same things.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/007/24.64.html

Carennedy all i have to say is WOW and double WOW!!! Girl you got the Bible know it all going !!! GOOD JOB!!! But i would like to add that God did not write the Bible because He did not want us to worship the Bible He wanted us to use it as a handbook for life!! but thats my oppion!!!

Your right freebubbles, it is our handbook for life. What is sad is that many would rather read and believe false books, like the davinci code, than read and live by the Bible.

I got tired of not being able to defend my faith and answer the hard questions so when my church challenged us to start reading the Bible on a daily basis, I took up the challenge and my life is so much better for it.

Freebubbles,

I encourage you to keep studying and learning about all religions as well as your own.

I hope you find a place that you feel worship is honest and fullfing.

<img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" />

believe it or not I'm speechless.....

evidence that the Bible can start a fire that never goes out!! I hear thunderous applause in heaven. What a way to defend your faith.

And the Paul stuff, your not alone, many people think those things about him. I answered your other post about some thoughts on him. I have resigned myself that I'll just ask him what he meant when I get there.

My mother in law is here.... hope she doesn't read this.

Anyway as I am Christian and I read the Bible and Christian authors, I try to every night, she saw me reading.

She went to get some movies for all of us to watch, even the kids. One was one my husband told her to get -- See Dick & Jane Run. Funny movie.

The other though was What the bleep do we Know. I read the back and it said:

Embark on a life changing journey with a divorced photographer who tumbles down a metaphysical rabbit hole. When she has a mind bending voyage through the worlds of science and spirituality her percepton of reality is turned inside out and the meaning of life becomes clear.

I read it now and don't see anything wrong but at the time when I read it my first thought was don't let the kids watch it. My guard went up and I was instantly offended. I went to the internet to check it out and this is what it said:

What the #$*! Do We Know? combines documentary tactics with narrative and sprinkles the result with special effects and animation to give audiences a mind-bending trip. In doing so, they attempt to convince viewers that the study of quantum physics leads us to the discovery that there is no real right and wrong � except that religion is wrong and just about anything else is right.

Amanda (Marlee Matlin) plays a woman who has a "through the looking glass" experience when her daily routine begins to fall apart. She is confronted with the volatile world of quantum physics at work behind familiar realities. And the movie would have us believe that these phenomena lead to the de-bunking of religion, that morality is proven to be an illusion, and that human beings are, in fact, gods in the making. Real truth, it seems, comes from a woman who is supposedly channeling an ancient being from Atlantis.

So what is it that gives us warnings about stuff? Is it just intuition or is it the Holy Spirit warning us to what is wrong and right?

I said the kids (4&7 years) couldn't watch it and I did stay up to watch it in order not to offend and show I have an open mind. She was highly offended that I wouldn't let the kids watch it because it is funny and their are cartoons and I should be teaching them to have an open mind. I think I have the right to be offended myself!!!

What I found was a very confusing theory of quantum physics being applied to the question who is God? But this was far far toward the end of a long boring mind numbing movie. I did however then stay up 'til 3 in the morning discussing it with my non Christian husband, so it did work as a sound board for the Truth.

I believe that the angels whisper to us. The fact that your mother in law is mad you didn't let the kids watch is just hurt feelings that she thinks she doesn't measure up to you. Don't take it personally and give her a little affection instead... I know it's hard... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ok again i dont have kids, but its never stoped me form giveing advice!!! with my motherinlaw i have found that its a war between how is the best woman in my hubbys life and how does he love the most!!! he is the only son and has two sisters one which is older then him and lives far away the other is right next door to there mother (yea i have to fight for hubby time alot with both!!!) (LOL-not really)

A have finly figured out that if i hang out or call the mother-sister inlaws and ask for advice of cooking hubbys faverite foods to fix how to sew... then feel better about there position in hubbys life and they "know" that i will inclued them in our life andi need them to "help me"!!! and sense i put a bug in their ear about not wanting hubby to know i dont know How to what ever.. they think that the best way to help me is by letting me ask questions and not pointing out my mistakes in front of everyone!!! but there is a trick to this. you have to ask a question about something before they start telling you how to or they get mad!! that is the key!!! i hope this makes sence im in a hurry going to work but im addiced to posting!!!!

Perhaps others have already answered your question about head covering, I don't know, I haven't read all the pages in this thread yet. However, I may have a answer for you.

Someone once explained to me that the original writing was worded differently and when translated to English it loses some of its meaning. I believe it origianlly meant that a womans hair IS her head covering and if her hair was cut short or shaved she should wear something to cover her head.
In fact 1 Corinthians 11:15 says that a womans hair is her covering. I believe that this whole passage just says that men should look like men and women should look like women when whorshiping, because that is how God made them.

Regarding the mother in law, I know you are both right.

He is her only child and because I choose to move to Alberta and live so far away we only see her very little.

She doens't like the church adn religion in General. I was trying not to debate it and held back a lot.

I just felt attacked and disrespected, which really upset me.

But your right.... I am not being fair or kind.

As for head coverings......
Don't get me started on the anti-women attitude of Paul. I've read articles on how he was a liberater of women and brought them equality. I still have a hard time reading Paul because of his gender message.

This is one area of the Bible I struggle with constantly, the role of the feminine. When Jesus was on Earth he had many female disciples, many that supported him and sat at his feet in praise of him. It was the women that stood by him in his time of need. Yet not one of the 12 were female. -- No Mary Magdalene was not suppost to be the leader of the church -- It's a fictional book!!!

When better for God to enhance the role of the women and show that he truly saw us and loved us as equals then when he roamed the earth?

Carennedy,

I took some time a while back and studied the culture of the times. I used to feel alot like you do about feminism and the New Testament. One of the things that I have come to accept is that in those days, the relationship between men and women was modeled after the story in Genesis where God spoke to Adam about the rules regarding the do's and don't's in the garden and Adam was supposed to pass the information on to Eve verbatim. When Adam failed to educate his wife (family) as to the Word of God (be the spiritual leader in the household so to speak), Eve fell into sin out of ignorance of the Word. When the serpant asked her directly whether God really SAID she would die from eating from the tree, she faultered. So the early Jewish culture (and still Orthodox Jews) based the roles of women according to the teaching that men were responsible for educating the women in their families as to what God designed for them to be blemish free before God.

Once I was able to grasp this concept, it helped me to understand that when I read what Jesus says, He is speaking to me also. And when I read what Paul wrote I am reading from the reformed Pharisee what the Lord is saying through him. Paul was a radical after his conversion! He turned 180 degrees from his whole life's belief system. He grasped what could only be considered as contrary to what he was raised to believe and what his family had believed for centuries. In the temple, women weren't even allowed into the area where the Torah was read and discussed, but this new church allowed women and men to learn together. They sat on opposite sides of the church still, but they could all hear the Word being read aloud to them and they could worship God together finally. Women were allowed to learn right along side of men and this was revolutionary! Which is why in one area of Pauls epistles he states that women should sit in church quietly and ask their husbands questions at home. It's because they were sitting on opposite sides and would often call out to their husbands for clarification about some teaching and their husbands would answer them back. Paul wanted people to not do this as it was disruptive to the service. They didn't have microphones back then!! As for the head covering part... back then if a women appeared out and about with her hair falling all over the place it was regarded as unkempt and probably not clean. Like so many beggars and homeless people. Paul wanted the people in the church to take full pride in how they presented themselves to the Lord. And if this meant that women were to bundle up their hair so as not appear as unkempt, then they should out of pride and respect for the Lord. When I understand this, it makes more sense to me. Paul was writing to a grassroots movement that was underground and often in danger. Yet he still wrote from his heart and I feel very strongly that there is alot of things we can learn from studying Pauls conversion and his life and ministry afterwards.

I understand what you are saying but there is something that rises inside me every time I come accross something in the Bible that places women so far down.

For instance the whole Sodom and Gomorah scene where Lot is trying to bargain his virgin daughters with a mob.

Here is the Lord sitting there listening to Lot and the mob, what is his response to punish Sodom and Gomorah. Lot is not punished for offering up his daughters, the Lord is right there and does nothing about Lot's offer. By doing nothing he has in essence said that rape is OK.

Then there is the whole lack of laws when it comes to rape and crimes against women.

When providing Moses with the laws for the Isrealites to follow God could have created any society he wished, what we got was very patriarchical. This leads me to believe that he cannot fully understand the plight of women throughout history until he has walked in their shoes.

Both are excellent points... but look at it this way:

The angry mob outside Lot's door wanted the two angels disguised as males... now Lot didn't know them from Adam, so to speak, but he offered the mob (his friends and neighbors) the opportunity to turn from their disobediant behavior and walk according to God's plan for men and women to be together in marriage (alluding to the idea of "marriage" loosely). Lot was at least trying to lead this mob back on track anyway. By offering his daughters to the mob he was saying, "Stop your disobediant behavior towards God and straighten up!! Here are two beautiful women!! This is what God had in mind for you!!"

When the mob turned down the offer of women for men, they were saying that they preferred their disobediant stand against God. They knew exactly what they were doing and they chose to continue. It's not detrimental towards women, as much as the story is about disobedience and the choice wehave tomake regarding God in our lives.

And as far as Moses is concerned, he wrote what God said from HIS PERSPECTIVE. Remember he was raised in Pharoes household and then he killed someone and ran away. He also stuttered and had a hard time getting his guts together to do what God wanted him to do. He argued with God when God told him to set His people free by the bush. He's no different than the rest of us. God used HIM! A stuttering, angry, lost, Jewish by birth not tradition, man who had to learn how to be Jewish from other Jews! God's law extended to all humanity, but Moses was a MAN living in the culture of his day and for him, it may have been a mixed culture in his mind. That's why I love the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus came and restructured all of God's laws to include all people. It's like he came and told everyone what God meant... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

With God all are included and none are discarded. But with humans, sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees...

And, in my opinion, it's not who said what, it is what was said. I hear God speaking to me in every word, every verse and every story in the Bible. I love how he used some of the most incompetent and other wise offensive people to deliver his message. It's like we have to get past our own prejudices in order to hear Him. It's a lesson I think we all have to learn all the time. God loves us all and to steal a line from "Bruce Almighty", "That's how (He) made you". All the differences and all the conflicts that we have are just human conflicts. In God's eyes we are all equal to one another whether we like it or not.

Think about Paul. The very thing that irritates you about his writing, may be the very thing God wants you to get over so you can hear HIM. So He can use you.

That which drives you nuts about the references to women in the Bible may well reflect your own feelings of inadequacy. You may feel inside that God couldn't possibly love you completely because maybe you don't love yourself completely. I tell you now, you are a woman worth dying for. I know a guy who died for you and I'll take His word for it.... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jenna,

Thanks for the kick in the pants sorta speak. Presently I'm reading How to be a Mary in a Martha world. Here's another one of those stories that gets my back up. Here is Jesus who brings hundreds to this house and what is Martha to do everything has to get done, they have to be fed, they need a place to rest their heads. What happens Jesus rebukes her for not sitting at his feet like Mary. I understand that it is her faith at question and that Jesus wouldn't care if he were fed, just that he was heard. Don't be too busy to hear his words.

But it is so hard to get past the "but could he of understood what it was like to be Martha, did he really understand her plight?"

In this respect I have so far to go. It's funny I know why I believe, I can answer some of the most perplexing questions but I still have trouble with this... silly huh!!