The Charge of the Goddess is one of the most influential writings in Wicca.

What about the Charge calls out to you? Is there a line or two that seem to speak louder than the rest? Is there a part that makes you uncomfortable? Do you have a favorite section?

I would love to really look closely at this topic and have a great conversation with you all!

I read that article you linked. I am a curious but scientifically minded person. Can you give evidence of any of those claims made in those writings?

What claims are you speaking of? The piece is a work of prose (originally a poem) speaking about the Goddess. I am nto sure what claims you are speaking of.

It makes the claim you should worship this goddess. Why? Who is this goddess?

I dont believe that it is telling anyone to worship the goddess that dosent already believe in the goddess. It was written for those who follow a pagan path already.

As far as who it is they are speaking of, it would be the universal feminine deity, who over the many years has been known by many names in many places.

Is there any archaeological evidence for the existence of this deity? For instance, history can show a real Muhammad and a real Jesus, Bhudda etc. Can history show any evidence( not necessarily proof) of this goddess?

History may show evidence of Jesus and Muhammed but does it show evidence of God?

The God and Goddess are energies much larger than any one person. There are many who believe that all paths lead to the same Divine no matter what you call it and that Jesus and Muhammed were wonderful teachers in their time.

now, on a side note, I just want to let you know that I am not writing this site or hosting this forum to prove to anyone my beliefs or to try to influence theirs. This site is for the support and education of those practicing Wicca and those who want to learn about Wicca in a safe space. So if your intention is to learn about Wicca then blessed be and welcome to the forum. However, if it is to debate and contradict then I will ask you to refrain.

It's a beautiful piece Fiona. When I was 13 I needed a mother figure to guide me so I chose Gaia - but without ever having heard that term or the terms "Pagan" or "Wicca". I called her "Earth-Mother-Goddess".

Thats lovely Elle! Gaia is a wonderful Goddess to work with. Full of warm, nurturing, and healing energy.

I have made no statements about my own beliefs. How can I be debating? I am not contradicting anything you say, just asking questions. Are you intimidated by questions about your religion? My intent is to learn so I must ask questions. Is that O.K?

I agree with Fiona in asking where the evidence of God lies. Although one shouldn't have to prove a person existed to compare their faiths. For instance, I believe that Jesus was a man who lived a normal life and happened to 'spread the word' so to speak, rather than a being immaculately conceived by God and resurrected after dying. Do I expect that to be the truth, and do I want others to believe it? No. That's the beauty of Wicca. As it harms none, do what you will. I also take that to believe what you want, as long as it hurts no one. No one should have to prove to another that who/what they worship exists.

I am not asking for proof. I am trying to find evidence on which I can place some level of faith. It is difficult for me to believe in fairy tales. I have to try and establish that it has some truth to it. That is what I seek. That is why I'm asking questions. Are there truths to this faith?

Yes.

I didn't say that you were debating. In fact I said if you are here to learn I welcomed you. We have had experiences in the past that have led me to make this "disclaimer".

I dont think that faith is something that can be proven scientifically. I think faith and belief have to come from the soul. They are the things that you trust even though you cannot see them.

Every religion relies on faith in some manner. There are always things that we know in our heart to be true even though we cannot prove them.

What are the truths to this faith?

Emaster101, May I ask what "faith" or "religion" you are ? I am curious. Of course you have every right not to answer but again I am curious. Please accept my apologies if this offends you in any way, it is not my intent at all.

I don't really believe in religion. I'm not much into dogma.

I'm more into searching for truths. Does wicca profess any?

So you are just asking questions on the Wiccan & Pagan forums for truth or proof ? Hope you don't mind but I will certainly be on the lookout for your similar post on the other religious/spiritual forums. Well of course I am assuming you are seeking the same info from them as well.

Most Wiccans follow the turning of the seasons, the idea that there is a balance in nature and the universe, and that the elements(Earth, Air, Fire, Water) make up a lot of that balance.

These hold our "truths". I doubt that is the answer you are looking for but its what I can tell you.

At its core Wicca is a Mystery Tradition. This means that it can never be completely learned from books or classes. It has many componants that must be EXPERIENCED to be understood. Because everyone experiences things differently, everyone has their own "truth".

Wicca is not a religion that is out to prove anything or to say they are the one right way.

[The Charge of the Goddess is one of the most influential writings in Wicca.

What about the Charge calls out to you? Is there a line or two that seem to speak louder than the rest? Is there a part that makes you uncomfortable? Do you have a favorite section?

My favourate section is" for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without"

I must say that I havent read something so wonderfull in a very long time and it really moved me, because it is so true yet so many of us look for outside recognition and aproval so that we forget that the awnser to true happyness lies within ourselves and nowhere else..

Crochetqueen,
I am already familiar with the more major faiths. I have read the Koran and Bible and Some Hindu writings. I have an understanding of sorts of those. I am totally unfamiliar with the wicca and pagan religions. I am trying to learn. Why are you defensive? I am only asking questions. I am also asking questions in the Baha'i forum.

silbermoon,
If you can't find it within yourself you cannot find it? Wow! I could have saved a lot on college.Just kidding. How is that possible?

Hey, emaster101,

I'm new to all things Pagan/Wiccan as well, though it is a path I've decided to follow... I'm not claiming to know much, but here's some of what I've learned in my short time...

Wicca is a nature-based religion. Some of the more important aspects are the cycles of the moon, the change of the seasons, the ebb and flow of the tide... Karma, oneness, and equality are also very important themes...

In answer to some of your questions about the Goddess, in my mind, the Goddess (and the God) are personifications of the energies in the universe (though different pagans & Wiccans believe somewhat differently). It sounds like you are a science-minded person, and I'm the same way. If you believe in physics, chemistry, and biology then those are the "laws" of the basis of Wicca. Nature is governed by those laws, and Wicca is based on nature. They are in and part of everything. I tend not to think of the God and Goddess and tangible beings, but beings that I can focus my thoughts and energies to since the universe as a whole is so abstract and large. Every tree, flower, rock, star, and person all contain the energies of the universe, and when I say "Thank you" I say it to the God and Goddess, the universe itself. There is a wonder in everything, regardless of who made it (if that is the case) or how it was made, and I thank my idea of the God and Goddess for this wonder, whether they are real in actuality or just in the recesses of my mind.

In answer to your question about "If you can't find it within yourself, you'll never find it elsewhere," that seems to have a pretty simple answer. It seems to me that so many people are looking for the quick fix now-a-days. A pill for their ills, quick money with no work, etc... When, if you truly look inside yourself, you will find all of the happiness you will ever need. If you don't find happiness in you, how will you find it in everyday things?

Well, I hope that helped a little. Again, I'm very new to the ways of Wicca and paganism. Some may argue with my view of the God and Goddess, but that is my view. Everybody has their own. I suppose my view works better for people who have a strong science background... It's atheism with spirituality, if that's possible.

Wow Froggie - that's almost exactly what I believe too! Although I don't think I had it outlined quite as well as you did. I tend to call myself agnostic, but it doesn't quite fit. Thanks for giving your perspective <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

D,
I must apologize if you thought I was being "defensive", didn't think I was so please forgive.

How did you get inside my head to say all that?!

I'm just glad I'm not the only one, and not just way out on some tree branch by myself.

I've been practicing solitary just for a very brief period of a few months, but these thoughts and ideas have been tugging at me for a long time... Being solitary, I haven't received any feedback about my beliefs, which is good and bad... So, it's nice to know that other people think a somewhat closely to what I do!! Not that it really matters, I guess.

Blessed be!

froggie

You would be surprised at the number of folks who practice solitary that wish they had some feedback on what they are doing lol. Its interesting that at a recent class where I teach the most common reason for people seeking out those classes is that they want to make sure they are "doing it right".

The funny thing is that they learn that if what they are doing feels right and is getting them the results (i.e. spirituality, confidence, etc) they are lookng for then of course its right!



--- To answer my own question---

My favorite part is

"I who am the beauty of the green earth and the white moon among the stars and the mysteries of the waters..."

I love the imagery and the feeling of connection with everything around me that this line brings.

I must share this with all of you, because you mentioned "doing it right". I started including my son in full moon rituals when he was around 5, he did surprisingly understand immediately and he is now 10 and understands alot more anyway we were getting ready for one and he had asked me if he could "prepare" and I of course was pretty excited and I let him (he was 5). It was wonderful, he offered 2 packages of fruit snacks , some snack crackers and a drink. See, everything doesn't have to be perfect.

What about an afterlife?

Most Wiccans believe in reincarnation. That the soul keeps going where the physical body ends.

Personally, I'm not sure I believe it. I'm not discounting it completely, because there are some very interesting stories of people experiencing past lives, but there are a whole lot of questions in my mind that make that sort of reincarnation not add up...

My idea of reincarnation is much more simple, and scientific. When we die, we start to decompose. The molecules that make each of us unique are integrated back into the greater whole. As simple as that!! All of our "stuff" is reintegrated into the universe as a whole.

Rebirth! I'm learning about the difference between that and reincarnation. The only thing I have to think more about is how can rebirth explain the things that reincarnation can? For instance, my BIL and SIL are married, she's one I'll never understand, nor like. BIL takes whatever she throws at him and silently moves through the relationship. When I wonder why/how they're together, reincarnation makes sense. They have to work through things here that they weren't able to work through 'there'. I like the concept of rebirth too though.

I dont think that I would say Most believe in reincarnation... but many do.

But Wicca is not about acheiving some special place when you die, its about making the place you are IN a more beautiful and fulfilling place right now.

Sorry. I only know what I read about that specific topic. Most of the books I've read say that Wiccans generally believe in reincarnation...

No worries... Wicca has a lot of variety!

Who controls who gets reincarnated into what? Who is in charge of that process? What about something like heaven or hell?

If you want to talk about heaven and hell, those are Christian concepts. You might get an answer that is more to your liking over at the Bible Basics forum for that discussion.

Heaven and hell are boogeyman stories to help ensure that Christians stay Christians. Wouldn't you be more apt to stick to your religion if you were promised eternal damnation upon leaving??

For Wicca, the afterlife depends your particular beliefs. My personal belief is that there is no afterlife, which is why the life we are living is so special and important.

I read this thread this morning with great interest. Very thought inspiring questions, I must say.

In answer to your question about reincarnation, I can only give my own personal belief, since of course, until we go through death and rebirth, we can only speculate as to what will happen...hehe.

I think that we are all in charge of our own reincarnation choices. I believe that after we die we will, for a short time, experience what we expect to experience (be that heaven, hell, summerland, a nice long rest, etc, etc), and that once the greater realization, that we are - at that moment - one with the universe, sinks in, then we will evaluate our recent past life (the one we just came out of) see what lessons we have learned from it, then we will decide what is still needed to be learned before progressing into our next life experience.

I believe that this process continues until we have reached some form of enlightenment, and then we are able to remain permanently as part of the universal energy.....joining with the God and Goddess, with Divinity, with All That Is.

Of course that is my own personal take on it.

YMMV
Blessings,
Selene

If we were to make all the decisions about what we need to learn then what need of the god or goddess?

Again, the may or may not be "real" beings, depending on your personal feelings towards the matter.

If you read my post, I don't believe in the God and Goddess as "real" beings. To me, the universe is real. When I pray to the God and Goddess, I'm actually praying to the universe. The God and Goddess just give me something that I can comprehend and direct my thoughts to with my small, human mind.

So, everything depends on your beliefs about things. That's one of the great things about Wicca: you aren't required to spout back dogma. God (or Goddess) isn't what some crusty old men tell you it is. It is what you believe, or don't believe. So, maybe there is and maybe there isn't a goddess or a god.

One of my favorite quotes from the movie Dogma is when the Muse says, "It's not important what you believe. It's just important that you believe something." Or something like that anyway...

Well, the way I see it, that while we are in the state of making those decisions, we are a part of that energy that is the God and Goddess, the universal energy, or what ever you personally call it, so we aren't making those decisions alone. We have the experience and wisdom of the entire universe at our disposal.

Then again, I believe that we have that energy at our disposal NOW as well. I just think that while we are living, in these bodies, that's it's sometimes harder to tap into than other times. And sometimes we need to be whacked in the head for the messages and knowledge to get through.

As I said at the beginning of my post, this is only MY personal opinion.

Good post, Stormispirit.

What messages specifically are they sending through?

Stormspirit,

Just wanted to say I love the tatoo, very beautiful.

If you are really serious about learning about Wicca and other Pagan religions, I suggest you start off reading. There is a ton of great literature that would probably explain things much better than we are.

If you fear your parents or something, there is always the library or perhaps used books stores so that you don't have to spend a ton on these books.

Some of my starting books have been THE SPIRAL DANCE by Starhawk, PAGANISM: AN INTRODUCTION TO EARTH-CENTERED RELIGIONS by Joyce & River Higginbotham, WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN by Merlin Stone. There are other good ones that you might want to read if you decide to go down the Wiccan path, but these have a wealth of information about the basics of the religion itself...

Maybe some of the "old timers" to Wicca would like to suggest some other books?

I love the artwork too!! I would love to see an updated picture!!

It's funny how you said this back on the 12th, emaster, because now you're over in the Bible Basics forum, proclaiming that you are born-again.

I forgot to do this as a quote, so I copied the question...
What messages specifically are they sending through?


The messages really depend on the person. What I need to learn is going to differ from what you need to learn.

Thanks!

They're telling me 'beware of the daves...'

LOL !

LOL familychoice!

Familychoice you are so funny, I love all your comments.

Look around you, the green grass, blue sky, white clouds, black night, glistening stars, flying birds, swimming fish... your own body shouts to you that there must be a creative force... something that started it all. Who can say wether the ultimate power is male or female. My personal belief is that as in all nature there must be both aspects in order to exist. The Lord and Lady of all creation guide us and protect us and help us live our lives with respect towareds ourselves and others. Logically nothing can come from nothing there must be a begining. Look to the natural world around you and you will find your truth.

My favorite part of the Charge of the Goddess is, "I Who am the beauty of the green earth and the white moon among the stars and the mysteries of the waters..."

Those are the things that drew me to Paganism, in general. The fact that divinity is all around and within us.

My favorite part of the Charge of the Goddess is, "I Who am the beauty of the green earth and the white moon among the stars and the mysteries of the waters..."

Those are the things that drew me to Paganism, in general. The fact that divinity is all around and within us.

I would say that if you have to ask who the Goddess or the God is or the One, that in my path as a wiccan I see them as combined, then you have never known this aspect and perhaps it is not the way for you to be following wicca.

to some wiccans, nature and science are the divinity.

IMO, I believe that the charge of the Goddess is powerful and effective and I also believe the same as the charge of the God.

That's more my belief structure. But that idea still holds the idea that divinity is part of and all around us.

2 Questions:
What is IMO?
Is there a Charge of the God that someone wrote? I would like to read it...

There are several. Doreen Valiente wrote The Charge of the Goddess (and Starhawk adapted it) and it is considered the real charge, several people have written a Charge of the God from a desire for balance.

Some versions are quite lovely.

If you do a google search you should find a few of them

As the same with any faith, the truth lies with the believer. The word "faith" itself is anamolous with "truth" since faith requires you to beleive in something that is not quantifiable or scientific.

You don't have to believe in the Goddess in the charge or any other. Christianity has pretty much taken the feminine out of deity systematically for millenia, so I would frankly be surprised if you announced you did believe in the Goddess.

It is enough for me that I do.

Intriguing line of questions from emaster1.

But to get back to the original question... there are so many lovely and moving parts of the Charge. I can never decide on a favorite or most meaningful.

"If that which you seek you find not within yourself, you will never find it without."

This line seems to be the one that I am drawn to most at present. For me, my personal challenges are in loving myself and treating myself with kindness and respect. That can be very challenging from day to day (particularly when I've just gotten out of bed, and before my coffee! eek!)
So, if I expect others to treat me with kindness, I must start with myself. If I want love from others, I must love myself. If I want wealth and prosperity, I must believe myself already rich in life. Not always easy, but that's my current work.
Excellent question, Fiona!