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Linda19 #667960 03/06/11 09:19 PM
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What a great discussion Lisa and Linda I agree that most people just don't wish to learn more or to be helped. I used to feel and be just like Lisa; try to help everybody by being as nice and helpful as I could and if I couldn't help then at least do no harm but after working in the business of weightloss and exercise for so long I realized that most people don't really want to change and most people will be super nasty even when you're trying to help them (literally bite the hand that feeds them).

Only a small handful of people are truly open to new ideas or new ways of doing things and not many people want to learn more than they already know. Most people prefer to stay stuck and closed off and dumbed down (sad but true).

I used to worry a lot about what people thought about me especially because I was brought up in a household where actions were judged constantly. After years of trying to help people and not really expressing my true opinions for fear of hurting other people's feelings I just got so tired of it and of feeling so defeated so I talked to my business coach about it and he said I can't change people who don't want to be changed.

He told me that your message no matter how good it is and how well it is communicated must only be communicated to those who want to hear it. Once I started doing this my work got soooo much easier and my life got better because now I am just able to express my true opinions (be true to myself) and not offer some watered down version of what I believe in, for fear of hurting others.

But I do respect you Lisa for being the way you are and living the Buddha way. It is definitely not an easy path.


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Sorry I had to leave our discussion so abruptly, Lisa. My brother called and asked if I wanted to ride out and look for wild horses then have dinner with him and Mom -- two offers I simply cannot refuse. He gave me ten minutes to get ready!

Originally Posted By: Lisa LowCarb / VideoGames
Dear Phyllis -

On the spirituality posting, I have to present first that something I pay attention to in discussions is a statement which seems to be an all-one-way statement. It tends to be my nature to want to then say "there are always many sides to an issue."

I think the overall message here is great, and I strongly support and promote Native Americans with all my sites. I have various Native American tribes in my background. I do think many tribes generally pay far more attention to the environment than other groups do, and that they generally pay far more attention to community issues.

But I would also say that all humans are human, that there are flaws in every group, and that there are tribes who have specific practices or restrictions that I would not agree with. That everyone has something to learn from everyone else. To me the phrasing is a little too much towards "all Native Americans are perfect."

Absolutely I agree that all groups should stand together, on equal terms, and learn from each other.


True, there are many sides to an issue. However, I was looking at this from the Native American POV and how they connect many things they do to their spirituality.

Yes, there are flaws in any group of people one studies. I wrote that (excerpt from an article) with the intent of teaching or sharing my knowledge to others who may not know much about Native American peoples.

Hmmm...I guess when I really look at what I wrote, it may seem that I think all Native Americans are perfect and have stronger spiritual beliefs than others. Yet...I am very much in tune to these peoples and so admire their spirituality, for my spiritual path holds many beliefs that the Lakhota, Hopi, and Pacific Northwest tribes have. I feel I am a kindred spirit with them.

This does not mean I think other peoples are not as good or as spiritual. I am not doing a comparison of different peoples/cultures -- I am offering information and knowledge for others to learn about Native Americans. smile

Now, if I took the attitude that your co-student did and told you to not reply again to any of my posts -- how would you feel about me shunning you like that? What do you think would be my motives for not accepting your opinions? Maybe because I felt I was very knowledgeable on the subject and saw that you in fact do know more about Native American peoples than I do -- and because I was proud of what I shared and you came along with even more knowledge and made a comparison with other peoples? (which, since it was not my intent, took away the purpose of my post, or "burst my bubble" with your logical facts = spiritual vs. logical; or emotional vs. technical/rational) smile

OH! This is fun. While trying to help you, I also am learning. How delightful! It is too bad that your co-student cannot discuss that issue with you like we are doing.

We should have a "Critique It!" thread for any editor who wants to have an article put up for open discussion/critiquing. I bet we would all learn from that. One would have to have a brave heart for it though.

Last edited by Phyllis-Folk/Myth; 03/06/11 11:53 PM.

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Jill - you should post about some of those insights in the self development forum and we can work on them!

Monica - I think you bring up an excellent point. Communication is a two way street and if someone does not want to listen then it's probably not going to work out whatever the "person expressing" does. I'm not saying this in a judgmental way but in a compassionate way. Maybe the person in the receiving position is exhausted from too much work caring for their family. Maybe they have been beaten down by their parents so much that they are scared to listen to new ideas. Maybe they feel overwhelmed with their current situation and they just can't handle change right now.

Or maybe they do *think* they want to change but they just aren't ready for it. They think they want a life change but it just isn't a priority. Or really they're afraid of it. They're afraid of the success. Many people who are overweight for example are "comfortable" hiding in that body. There are fewer expectations on them. They don't have to face challenges, people let them bow out. So to start to change that means to start to take on responsibilities to them. I.e. they can say to themselves "Oh I can't date, nobody would like me." They are so comfortable in that excuse that it's scary to change even while they say they want to.

So I think there are all sorts of reasons people fear change. They're worried the new future will be a lot scarier than the current situation. Even if they don't like their wife it's worse to think about being alone. So they complain - but they cling.

I think it's sort of like the saying "when you are ready to learn, a teacher will appear." I think conversely that if you're not ready to learn, even if a teacher is right there, you can't hear the message yet. So I think as a teacher, like Monica was saying, you have to find ways to figure out if your student is *really* ready to make that change or if they're still in the trying-to-get-ready stages.

This reminds me of stories they tell about Zen Buddhism temples. If someone just walks up to one and says "I want to study here" they say "no - go away!" If a student isn't serious, they leave. Some will plunk down and sit there. Now the Zen teachers yell at them. That will drive others away. A few will remain. They'll be let in and given very basic chores. That will drive more away. The ones who remain are the ones who really want to learn - and those are the ones who are taught.


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Dear Phyllis -

I would feel sad that you were upset by my feedback, since my purpose was to help you, not to make you upset.

I would wonder how I could have phrased my feedback differently so that you were not upset by my feedback.

I suppose until these recent conversations it wouldn't have occurred to me that you didn't *really* want feedback. I.e. maybe you were posting because it was the class requirement to post - but that you were upset by having to post your thoughts and having anyone respond to it with anything but "great job!" was even more upsetting.


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I think people get upset about things, no matter what. You cannot please everyone all of the time. Sometimes if I join in a topic on these forums and I use a reference from the Quran or what I believe, to make my point, I find that it upsets quite a few people here who do not agree with or follow a religion or like my point of view.

Sometimes I apologise to who I have upset and leave the conversation because as you say Lisa, I am not trying to say anything to upset people I am just giving my opinion, and if people do not want to hear what I have to say, I am not going bang my head on the wall trying to tell them.

We know what we know, and if someone knows more than another person about a particular thing, we should be happy and learn from each other.

Last edited by Linda - Islam; 03/07/11 06:54 AM.

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Quote:
This reminds me of stories they tell about Zen Buddhism temples. If someone just walks up to one and says "I want to study here" they say "no - go away!" If a student isn't serious, they leave. Some will plunk down and sit there. Now the Zen teachers yell at them. That will drive others away. A few will remain. They'll be let in and given very basic chores. That will drive more away. The ones who remain are the ones who really want to learn - and those are the ones who are taught.


I love this story. Speaks volumes about motivations and life purpose too! A gymnastics coach I trained with shortly after my son was born did this to me and I soon realized I really wasn't that serious about gymnastics or competing in fitness. He did me a huge favor by being so harsh. If he made it easy and I had continued taking gymnastics that would've distracted me and taken me down a completely different path than the one I took and I would not have accomplished all the great things I've done in the last 10 years.

At the time I thought he was hateful and mean for making things so difficult and it took a long time for me to realize why he acted that way. If I saw him now I would thank him a million times.

I've used this with clients too (they call it making a client pre-qualify for training). You make it so hard for somebody to get on your roster that only those who are truly serious persist and those are the individuals who get the results. When I worked in gyms you had to train anybody who would buy training and results were rare.

Last edited by ExerciseEditor; 03/07/11 11:22 AM.

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Lisa, I hope you do realize I am not upset at all. That was just a lesson, a scenario, as an example of "what if". Actually, I love feedback on my articles for it helps me to continue to learn -- and learning is what I am here for.

Even when I am yelled at I take it as a learning experience.

Like I said earlier in one of my posts here: anyone who posts in an open forum should be prepared for a different opinion and a discussion.

I find this thread very helpful in many ways.

Back to your original thought, I came up with another scenario on how to help others.

If you had approached that other student's post with a different reply, do you think the results would have been different?

such as:

"This is a very interesting topic, So-and-So. I am curious as to any available statistics on the subject. Do you have any statistical information you can share with us?"

This approach could produce a few results:

1. She may take your comment as a compliment and feel good about herself and appreciate your interest.

2. It would offer her the opportunity to either show that she does know more and is willing to share or give her a reason to back up her statements with more research and facts.

3. Or, it would show that she needs help in further discussion of the subject -- in which you could offer some suggestions or offer to research for statistical info.

4.After showing your interest and offer to help research, if she still came back with that "battitude" she would let everyone know that she only wants to get her opinions out and not accept anyone else's opinions/information. She would then be known as very biased and opionated. And you would know you have done your best to show interest and offer help.

5. You could then write up your own post with statistical information.

What do you think?


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I really like Phyllis' compassionate approach to this. It gives the girl a chance to save face publicly and not feel shot down.

Jilly #668234 03/07/11 07:31 PM
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Very interesting thread. I have often been called a "know it all" or some version of the term. I think it's applied very loosely--I certainly don't "know if all". I think it means "knows more than the rest of us."

And, I think if you have people who before thought they were pretty smart but you always appear smarter, it could be a bit of a poke in the ego for them. BUT, it's totally their issue. Your "dumbing down" would not make them any smarter. And, their asking you not to comment on their posts really seems insecure and well, not eager to learn.

I play Words with Friends on the iPhone and I like it. I am pretty good at it. I love Scrabble and nobody in my family likes to play with me. I always win. But, I've played online with people better than me and it helped ME get better--getting whooped taught me a lot about being a better player. I still didn't like getting beat, but I played to learn. Now, half the (random) people I play Words with resign before the game is over. I even find myself playing lesser-scoring words so I don't "skunk" them, which is hard for me--I grew up playing basketball and competitiveness was a good thing. Winning was valued.

Being smart was valued, too--and resented. I honestly believe every romantic relationship I've had tanked because I am smarter than they were. Even though all of them had areas they were far superior to me in (and they had other issues, intelligence was just one part of it), after awhile (years in every case), they just didn't like that I was "smarter".

My last boyfriend actually told me when we were breaking up that I made him feel stupid--and he's pretty smart, just in different ways (mechanical, spatial). It took me a LONG time to realize that while some of that might be my fault (I could have been a bit more compassionate when he did/said really dumb stuff), it really is his own self-image (and a bunch of cultural stereotypes) that's his problem.

Wow--sorry for going off on tangents here! I'm just pretty peeved that being smarter than the average bear is a BAD thing!

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I don't see any tangents there, Deb. And that is why i only choose men who are at least as intellectual, or more so, than me. That way they don't go running for the hills (if they do run, it's from something else, lol).

Also, as I said, brilliance is attractive to me in a mate. I must be intelle-tropic. I guess my men have been also.

My mother thinks i am too picky that way, but i want a mate i can have a certain level of learning and discourse with.

Brainyness. Good, bad - it is what it is. It's just genetics. I'd never give it up as it defines me.

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