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Jilly my long post about my background was the one I worked on in response to your post.


Lisa Shea, Low Carb and Video Games Editor
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Originally Posted By: Phyllis-Folk/Myth
When I showed a bracelet I had just finished beading to this friend, I was very proud of my accomplishment. It was my first attempt at Peyote stitch and I thought I did a great job on it.

Her response: "Oh, how nice. You know, my daughter is getting so many requests to make jewelry for friends and customers of hers. She does exquisite work! It is so professional and she is in such high demand for her work."


Hmmm my first reaction is that I am stumped on this, because the person is not seeking to expand knowledge. This is not a knowledge based conversation. She's not talking about the history of the Peyote beading or even saying "Well technically that's not Peyote, that's Aztec" or something like that. She is in essence completely changing the subject from one that focuses on your progress to date to one that focuses on her world's progress to date. The "how nice" is more of a transition phrase to move from one to the other.

Maybe though this *does* relate in a way - and in an easily understandable way - to school based discussions too? Maybe in a school based discussion person 1 is saying "Here is my growth and achievements in area X, I am proud of this knowledge" and then someone else says "(transition statement) Here are my growths and achievements in area X, and if you see here, it helps to demonstrate why your achievements have flaws." Could that be a way of looking at it?

To be more direct about what the bracelet person is saying to you, I remember us talking about this in another thread, and I think some people develop a mindset over time (maybe instilled by a childhood situation) that if they don't speak up for themselves nobody will. So they train themselves to do it and then it becomes so much of a habit that they think it's normal and don't even realize it could bother people. In fact they get rewarded by the attention when they do it so it perpetuates. So I think a solution there is to not reward them because people tend to stop doing things they're not rewarded for doing. So I would not really pay attention when she grabs the focus, let her finish and then go back to your discussion and say something (gently) like "I hadn't quite finished, but what I was saying was ..." - i.e. help her see that there was more on your end. Then when you DO finish with your part, ask her with interest about her side and show interest in what she says. I.e. help her understand what the behavior you'd like to see would look like.


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I totally agree with Monica, why worry about someone else getting upset by your knowledge?

I, for one, am so glad you are a 'know it all' Lisa, because I know if I need help here, you are the one I can turn to.

I have been called a 'know it all' especially by men. They hate it when I have all the answers, especially in my given subject, Islam. I do know it all, I made sure I know it all, otherwise how could I possibly speak on such a topic let alone write about it.

Carry on being a 'know it all' Lisa. There is nothing wrong with knowledge. There is nothing wrong with wisdom and intelligence.

If someone gets upset by the fact you know a bit more than she does, then it is her problem, not yours.

Know it alls unite I say!


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There are several differences. When you are 'asking' someone for advice, that is great. But unsolicited advice just seems bratty. Show-offy. "Look at me!!!! I know more than you do! It's all about meeeeeee!"

Where I grew up, I was an anomaly. My parents are not intellectual in any way. Neither is my sister. None of my aunts, uncles, grandparents or - from what I can tell - my many cousins, are. Not my niece. I have no idea from what genetic soup made me.

In fact, my mother actively wanted me to lay off about anything 'deep' or too complicated. Even today she tells me that I can't have certain kinds of conversations with her - that she finds them boring. I hate to bore people.

I know she is proud of me, but i hear that from other people. And sometimes she uses me to entertain her friends, "ask my daughter how any animal reproduces..."

I would get my report card with A grades and would not open the thing until i got home, so no one would know I had A grades. I never wanted anyone to feel less that I got As and they didn't, and also 'smart kids' were ostracized as nerds. At least in upstate New York.

I had no intellectual friends growing up. My teachers were bland and uninspiring. TV didn't feature brilliant people in leading roles, or as people to emulate. They were always the sidekick or lab nerd, or absent-minded, or something less than heroic.

In high school I actually found a friend who was intellectual like me and I attached myself to her like a lamprey. She rocked my world. She still does. I am drawn to brilliant people. All of my love relationships have been with men at least as intellectual or more so. I am a moth who loves the light of mental brilliance. I ache for it - i think because I was such an anomaly, and things went better in my life if I hid being bright.

-----------------------

What I do not like is not being treated like an intellectual equal. So if I state a theory and someone comes along and says, "Not true, I looked it up!" ....then it reads as, "you are wrong, dumb-dumb, and now everyone knows it."

I try really hard to help people save face when correcting them. I don't like correcting people, since i know I am too sensitive to it myself. I think phrasing things in ways that are not condescending, that allow for the saving of face, is highly important and under-acknowledged.

-----------------

I am taking the time to mention all this since you really do want to understand where these people might be coming from.


Last edited by Jilly; 03/06/11 06:18 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Lisa LowCarb / VideoGames
Originally Posted By: Phyllis-Folk/Myth
When I showed a bracelet I had just finished beading to this friend, I was very proud of my accomplishment. It was my first attempt at Peyote stitch and I thought I did a great job on it.

Her response: "Oh, how nice. You know, my daughter is getting so many requests to make jewelry for friends and customers of hers. She does exquisite work! It is so professional and she is in such high demand for her work."


Hmmm my first reaction is that I am stumped on this, because the person is not seeking to expand knowledge. This is not a knowledge based conversation. She's not talking about the history of the Peyote beading or even saying "Well technically that's not Peyote, that's Aztec" or something like that. She is in essence completely changing the subject from one that focuses on your progress to date to one that focuses on her world's progress to date. The "how nice" is more of a transition phrase to move from one to the other.

True - I can see that. She is transitioning away from what she does not know (Native American beading) to something she does know (her favorite style jewelry pieces).

Originally Posted By: Lisa LowCarb / VideoGames
Maybe though this *does* relate in a way - and in an easily understandable way - to school based discussions too? Maybe in a school based discussion person 1 is saying "Here is my growth and achievements in area X, I am proud of this knowledge" and then someone else says "(transition statement) Here are my growths and achievements in area X, and if you see here, it helps to demonstrate why your achievements have flaws." Could that be a way of looking at it?


I think so. That is what I was trying to point out in my way of thinking (analogy).

Originally Posted By: Lisa LowCarb / VideoGames
To be more direct about what the bracelet person is saying to you, I remember us talking about this in another thread, and I think some people develop a mindset over time (maybe instilled by a childhood situation) that if they don't speak up for themselves nobody will. So they train themselves to do it and then it becomes so much of a habit that they think it's normal and don't even realize it could bother people. In fact they get rewarded by the attention when they do it so it perpetuates.


That is very interesting. I can see how her childhood mindset and development influences her thought process today.

Originally Posted By: Lisa LowCarb / VideoGames
So I think a solution there is to not reward them because people tend to stop doing things they're not rewarded for doing. So I would not really pay attention when she grabs the focus, let her finish and then go back to your discussion and say something (gently) like "I hadn't quite finished, but what I was saying was ..." - i.e. help her see that there was more on your end. Then when you DO finish with your part, ask her with interest about her side and show interest in what she says. I.e. help her understand what the behavior you'd like to see would look like.


Very good idea. That would allow me to finish my attempt to let her know how much this new project means to me -- and it would draw her into a more amiable discussion on both our interests.

So - can we relate this example to yours with the fellow student?



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Jilly your way of correcting can never be considered condescending. When you have written to me to correct mistakes I have made on the training course, I have learnt from you. You are always patient and articulate.

The same with Lisa, neither of you ever made me feel foolish for any errors I made, your only aims were to help me. If I can feel that through a computer, it is sad when people do not see it in the real person.

I too grew up in a family who did not understand me or what I talked about. If I am honest they still do not understand. But it doesn't make me want to enlighten them. If someone doesn't want to know, I don't make them listen. Their loss I always think.



Linda Heywood

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Linda -

I do agree that knowledge is a wonderful thing which should be shared and expanded.

I think for me it's also worth giving consideration to how the knowledge is shared so that it has the best chance of being heard by the recipient. Several of my communications classes have talked about all the ways a message can "go awry" during the transmission process.

That is, say I have valuable knowledge that I am trying to communicate to John. It is my aim for John to receive and understand this knowledge. But if something goes awry during the transmission process, he doesn't get the knowledge. So now I have "lost valuable time" in my effort and there was no result. If I am going to invest the time and effort to try to do this communication task, I should work on my polishing of my skills to help ensure it works properly.

It could be even worse, that in addition to the transmission of knowledge failing, now John can be upset. So it's not even a neutral end result on his end, I have caused more anger in the world. So my investment of time and energy has caused a harmful effect rather than a helpful effect. So that's even worse (in my mind, on my path) than having not done anything at all.

Which is what is leading to my decision to stop posting over in that class ethics forum.

Sort of like (and I don't know why I'm so addicted to metaphors) but say I am coding a new ASP postcard feature for our site here. I want to invest 10 hours to do it. So I would make sure I researched to do it well, so at the end of the 10 hours I had a fully functional postcard section. If I ended up with a broken postcard section then I've both made the postcard section worse plus lost 10 hours that could have been spent on something fruitful. It would have been better if I didn't touch it.

So to me it's in my own best interest to learn how to communicate better, if I am going to spend the time to communicate information. My aim is to leave the people I'm communicating with better off than when they began. If I leave them worse off then when I began then I'm not reaching my own aims.


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Sometimes people don't listen no matter how well something is communicated to them.

And it is funny that you mentioned postcards, because that is one of the topics on the course I have just taken that caught my interest.

Last edited by Linda - Islam; 03/06/11 06:06 PM.

Linda Heywood

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"unsolicited advice just seems bratty"

In the context of a college discussion forum where people have to make a deliberate choice to post in the discussion, I am having trouble contemplating this.

If someone posts their part of the discussion, it is then entered into the discussion framework. The syllabus indicates we are required to respond to each others' posts.

Could a response post therefore be unsolicited?


On a separate note, and I hope you realize I am teasing with a big smile here -

"In high school I actually found a fiend who was intellectual"

I want an intellectual fiend!! Where do I find one? I want mine to be red and have wings.


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Lisa,

If I posted the following message in a class on the "Spirituality of Native American Ceremonies" and you were a student in the same class, how would you respond/reply to it?

"While many ceremonies and even some powwows are closed to the public and kept as private and secret ritual ceremonies, there are some traditions they gladly share so that others can learn in much the same way as they learn from other religions. The world as we know it today is in great need of what the Native American traditions have to offer. Their profound respect for all living things, their love and respect for Nature and their great respect and love for their Elders is something that all too few peoples even consider today. Their culture comes forth from the earliest spiritual life traditions of an ancient time and ancient Peoples and is very honorable.

It is way past time that we, as a nation, do all we can to uphold the First Peoples of this land - to stand not above them, but with them as one with the same goal - to protect the heritage and future of all our children."

PS: I promise not to get sensitive no matter how you reply.

Last edited by Phyllis-Folk/Myth; 03/06/11 06:15 PM.

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