BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Catholicism If a Faith is not "True" it is "False" - debate

SIDE NOTE: Here is the correct translation of John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting."

In my bible it says:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The words are arranged slightly different but the meaning is the same. "Whosoever" means anyone.

The word "whosoever" is not the problem. It is the word "shall" - the correct translation is "MAY" it is not an absolute. You may now be saved - opposed to: you shall be saved.
You are correct, that ANY person (regardless of if they are Gentile, Semite, etc.) may be saved.. In the Old Testament only a Jew could be Just. Gentiles could worship the True God, but never be Justified. Now we can.

CzarinaOz thank you for your answers and I think I will take you up on your invite! I think I will start a new thread so I dont get this one of track!

Phillis,
you quoted John 3:16 but could that not be translated as to mean that if you are not Catholic then you do not truely believe in the bible or Jesus? Many people use John 3 16 to mean that you have to believe the way they believe to truely believe in the bible and Jesus.

The quotes that you used, Mellisa, did not speak of what the topic was... Each one of those quotes, keeping with the defined dogma of "no salvation..." means that if a man is of the TRUTH he will FIND IT - inside the Catholic Church.
You quoted St. Gregory Nazianzen, then after, one by St. Thomas Aquinas with a hypothesis on the desire for Baptism. But the same Saint you quoted had this to say about the "desire for baptism":

"Of those who fail to be Baptized, some are utterly animal or bestial; others honor Baptism but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable passion. Still others are not able to receive Baptism because of infancy or some involuntary circumstance which prevents their receiving the gift, even if they desire it. I think the first group will have to suffer punishment, not only for their other sins but also for their contempt of Baptism. The second group will also be punished, but less, because it was not through wickedness so much as foolishness that brought about their failure. The third group will be neither glorified, nor punished; for, although un-Sealed, they are not wicked. If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism. But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter? Put it this way: if desire has the equal power with actual Baptism, you would then be satisfied to desire Glory, as though that longing itself were Glory! Do you suffer by not attaining the actual Glory, so long as you have a desire for it? I cannot see it! -St. Gregory Nazianzen

If it had always been taught that one can be saved without membership of the One True Church, then why are there millions of quotes from Popes, Councils, Doctors, Fathers and Saints that say the opposite (outright)?

Here is another question pertaining to the statement that was quoted from the recent "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith":
Quote "For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, �salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."

My question:
If I SINCERELY believe that [g]od wants me to sacrifice a million infants to him by cutting out their hearts and burning them in a fiery pit, will I be saved? After all, they did say that the church will 'accommodate to my spiritual and material situation' -
Maybe if I decide tomorrow that I want my "spiritual and material situation" to require robbing a bank, gambling, sexual deviancy...?

The dogmas of Faith are above any person and their private interpretation or personal sophistry.
The Dogmas are the Highest - "the buck stops here."
To chose men (who can be in error, either purposely or without knowledge) over bound and defined statements by the Popes or Dogmatic Councils is foolish - and the foolish man goes to hell.
Even the modern world cannot take a definition like "Square" - A plane figure having four equal sides. Then say it is actually "Round" - where every part of the surface or the circumference is equidistant from the center.
Believing in false doctrine will not be forgiven - it proves a person loves error and not truth: EVERYONE who is of the Truth WILL HEAR it and OBEY it.
If a person is a lover of iniquity God will not Provide, in fact the Bible says that God hates lovers of iniquity (error, faslehood etc...) Save yourself of having to explain to Christ why you followed what mere men said, when you had the bound truth in front of you. It isn't going to make you popular, but then Christ said as much. Knowing that Christ predicted it, and the fact that no matter how nice you say it "it is a hard saying, who can hear it?" Makes you know that when the Church said it the first time, She was right.

People need to actually read St. Thomas Aquinas. The modernist are hoping you never do. Saint Thomas says that if a person TRULY wishes to know the true faith that God will even send an Angel or other teacher to instruct them in what they need to know and do for salvation (Read of the Particular Providence of God).
In a nut-shell - God has bound Himself to rules, he will not break them - that would make Him a liar, instead He finds a way to KEEP THEM and His Word BOUND and PROVIDE what is needed to help any person, no matter where he is, to become a member of His One Fold, One Church.

No, this is not Catholic teaching. The Church has never taught that only Catholics can be saved. What the Church teaches is explained very well in our Catechism of the Catholic Church, so I will quote from the Catechism, again:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

Ever wonder why there is a "New" Catechism? What was wrong with the "Old" one? Want to know why some of what is contained in the most recent one, cannot be found in the one previous? How about the fact that one catechism can say explicitly one thing and the complete opposite is said in another?

ANSWER: They are not INFALLIBLE. They are only as "good" (or bad - since some Catechisms have been BANNED for containing heresy - of course you won't find that happening in these times) as the men who put them together at that time.

That is why we have INFALLIBLE statements from Dogmatic Councils and Papal Bulls, etc... They have a criteria to meet in order to be dogmatic and "bound in Heaven as on Earth."

If you want the truth, read the defined dogmas of councils and other Papal statements - don't get your information from those who can twist and turn a definition into something it is not.
Truly, why would the Church ever say that there was no salvation outside of Her, if there was? What would the point be?

Read the definition of the dogma "No Salvation..." below, and tell me what you think it "REALLY says?"

"The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever have a share in eternal life, but that they will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels unless before death they shall have entered into the Church; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those abiding within this unity can profit from the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal reward for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may be, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV

Yes, this does mean you actually have to work out your salvation as Christ said, and yes you will have to learn and read something other than the one or two books on the faith but good news! - You CAN find the Bulls, Encyclicals, and dogmatic Councils on the web! If you want to know how to spot a definition look for the words simular to this: "We say, pronounce and define..." or "The Church firmly proclaims..." and those "anathemas" like these two:

"If anyone does not profess properly and truthfully all that has been handed down and taught publicly to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God, to the last detail in word and intention: let him be anathema." - I Lateran Council

"If anyone does not with mind and lips reject and anathemize all abominable heretics together with their impious writings, even to the single least portion, let such a person be condemned" - Pope St. Martin I

Since it is approved by the Vatican and is an official Catechism of our Catholic Church, no I don't. I am grateful to have it!

I will let a quote from beginning of the Catechism explain its significance:

APOSTOLIC LETTER FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND
VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

To my Venerable Brother Cardinals, Patriarchs, Archbishops,
Bishops, Priests, Deacons and to all the People of God.

GUARDING THE DEPOSIT OF FAITH IS THE MISSION WHICH THE LORD ENTRUSTED TO HIS CHURCH, and which she fulfills in every age. The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, which was opened 30 years ago by my predecessor Pope John XXIII, of happy memory, had as its intention and purpose to highlight the Church's apostolic and pastoral mission and by making the truth of the Gospel shine forth to lead all people to seek and receive Christ's love which surpasses all knowledge (cf. Eph 3:19).

3. The Doctrinal Value of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!

The approval and publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church represent a service which the Successor of Peter wishes to offer to the Holy Catholic Church, to all the particular Churches in peace and communion with the Apostolic See: the service, that is, of supporting and confirming the faith of all the Lord Jesus' disciples (cf. Lk 22:32), as well as of strengthening the bonds of unity in the same apostolic faith.

Therefore, I ask all the Church's Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life. This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and particularly for preparing local catechisms. It is also offered to all the faithful who wish to deepen their knowledge of the unfathomable riches of salvation (cf. Eph 3:8). It is meant to support ecumenical efforts that are moved by the holy desire for the unity of all Christians, showing carefully the content and wondrous harmony of the catholic faith. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

This catechism is not intended to replace the local catechisms duly approved by the ecclesiastical authorities, the diocesan Bishops and the Episcopal Conferences, especially if they have been approved by the Apostolic See. It is meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms, which take into account various situations and cultures, while carefully preserving the unity of faith and fidelity to catholic doctrine.

At the conclusion of this document presenting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I beseech the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Incarnate Word and Mother of the Church, to support with her powerful intercession the catechetical work of the entire Church on every level, at this time when she is called to a new effort of evangelization. May the light of the true faith free humanity from the ignorance and slavery of sin in order to lead it to the only freedom worthy of the name (cf. Jn 8:32): that of life in Jesus Christ under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, here below and in the Kingdom of heaven, in the fullness of the blessed vision of God face to face (cf. 1 Cor 13:12; 2 Cor 5:6-8)!

Given October 11, 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate.




It is all in the interpretation - and we must understand this dogma as the church understands it. I have quoted from many official sources and I am going to trust those sources - especially since I've even quoted from the Vatican website itself. The Catechism from which I quoted is approved by the Vatican - it's not some publication from a few people who got together and decided to print their version of Catholicism. It is an official publication straight from the Holy See. And it clearly explains what the dogma "no salvation outside the church" means.



Well, then, I will quote from the Second Vatican Council on this matter:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Mellisa,

A few things you need to know:

1) Most Catechisms have an "Imprimatur" upon it, even the ones that had been later condemned.

2) The Pope doesn't actually read the Catechisms before he writes his "blessing" on it - he relies on his "faithful" Congregation to do that, so he may in fact never even know what it contains. Again, it is only as good as the men who write it, since it is not infallible. Even if a Pope did know of the error and allowed it to remain, due to some weaknesses he may possess (they are human and a few have been proclaimed by the Church as heretics) the dogmas are always there to "double-check" any questions; The Popes cannot lie when binding a Dogma of Faith. This is the guarantee we have from God which is why Catholics should stop listening to men and actually read what the dogmatic councils and pronouncments say.

3) The Second Vatican Council was not "dogmatic," meaning: it never defined or pronouced dogma, in fact since it was merely "Pastoral" it can be dismissed completely from ever existing by any future Pope (unlike the ones that actually did define dogma, which you and every true Catholic should be studying up on - this is much like a house built on sand -v- the house built on rock. i.e: "Don't build your house on sand...")

You never answered my question as to why the church would say there was no salvation outside of Her, when there realy is. You simply keep saying that "its all in the interpretation" - The question is basic, and I want an honest answer so I will ask again: Why would the Church ever even mention "No Salvation..." if it was not needed to be said, since there actually IS salvation outside Her?

Did you read the pronouncement (infallible) that I quoted?
Can you explain to me why you would ignore the highest authority, a definition and declaration?
I will paste my question and the quote, here, for you again:

Read the definition of the dogma "No Salvation..." below, and tell me what you think it "REALLY says?"

"The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever have a share in eternal life, but that they will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels unless before death they shall have entered into the Church; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those abiding within this unity can profit from the Sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal reward for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may be, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV

In summary: A binding statement or definition of dogma is the highest authority; nothing and no one can ever undo or redo what IT says. Once a Pope has spoken in this manner, it is BOUND in heaven as Truth. A thousand Popes, other Bishops, Cardinals..etc. cannot remove it. They can try and write all kinds of books and interpretations to twist it as they would want, but the definition will always remain in the original document/pronouncement, as it is in Heaven, (much to the dismay of liberals).

I'll assume you are busy with sick father. Don't forget to have a Priest give him blessings for the sick.