logo

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Vance - Crime Editor] #468330
11/14/08 04:08 PM
11/14/08 04:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172
Texas, US
Lynn_B Offline
Koala
Lynn_B  Offline
Koala

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172
Texas, US
I would argure we don't "need" a bailout now.

As far as NAFTA goes, it certainly led to change. But, opening the borders for trade isn't the root cause for our mess. I would hold that refusal to adapt to market changes, poor management, and irresponsibility (individual, corporate and political) have led us to where we are now.

Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Lynn_B] #468339
11/14/08 04:52 PM
11/14/08 04:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,582
Hudson Falls, New York
V
Vance - Crime Editor Offline
BellaOnline Editor
Vance - Crime Editor  Offline
BellaOnline Editor
Wolf
V

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,582
Hudson Falls, New York
Originally Posted By: Lynn_B
I would argure we don't "need" a bailout now.

As far as NAFTA goes, it certainly led to change. But, opening the borders for trade isn't the root cause for our mess. I would hold that refusal to adapt to market changes, poor management, and irresponsibility (individual, corporate and political) have led us to where we are now.


If we didnt open the borders for free trade like we did, then our companies would not have moved to Mexico and the like where labor is so cheap and the CEO's are getting rich.


Vance Rowe
Crime Editor
Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Vance - Crime Editor] #468458
11/15/08 03:53 AM
11/15/08 03:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172
Texas, US
Lynn_B Offline
Koala
Lynn_B  Offline
Koala

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172
Texas, US
The movement of US companies into Mexico started in the 1960's (the maquiladora movement), which predates NAFTA a good 30 years. The same holds true for countries like India. We make it nearly impossible for companies to grow here in the U.S. (unionization, high payroll costs above market levels, forced contributions from employers towards insurance and other extras, high unemployment insurance contributions, high contributions for workers compensation, etc.). If their leaders/boards/CEO's want to grow, they have to locate somewhere they can do that. I don't like it; but it makes good fiscal sense for the companies who are trying to stay afloat.

If we want to keep jobs here, we have to make it easier for companies to be here.

But, the movement of jobs is not the root cause of the current instability. What we have is a nation of people (individuals, corporations, government) - myself included - living on credit, refusing to save, over extending their obligations. When people refuse to meet their obligations, the entities that extended the credit fail. Our whole economy is wrapped up in this network of borrowing, borrowing, borrowing. The house of cards has fallen. Banks can't make loans because they don't have liquidity. Businesses can't get loans for payroll and have to lay people off. People are laid off and have no money to pay towards their obligations; and the cycle just continues.

If we'd quit trying to find something/someone to blame (NAFTA, the Republicans, the Democrats, fat cat businessmen, Joe Blow down the road, etc.) and start looking in the mirror and owning up to what we've done to ourselves we might get somewhere.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there that just aren't comfortable with that; and really need to have someone just step in, toss some money and platitudes at the "problem," and sweep the whole mess away for them.

Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Lynn_B] #468473
11/15/08 05:24 AM
11/15/08 05:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 312
Mississippi USA
C
cela Offline
Shark
cela  Offline
Shark
C

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 312
Mississippi USA
I live where there are a ton of illegals working in the chicken processing industry. There is SUCH a blind eye turned to this problem--both to the employers and the illegal employees. This problem is the reverse of that of industries leaving our borders.

This situation is SO wrong on SO MANY levels. First, it creates an underclass of people who can be truly at a disadvantage if they are mistreated. They can be cowed into not reporting crimes or unfair wages if they are naive enough to fear deportation. On the other hand, they often drain government resources when their children enroll in our schools or they need healthcare. We even have a new scenario---I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) raid "disaster" areas. If a large business in your area experiences a federal immigration raid that, ultimately, shuts down the business, your community may be faced with providing shelter/food for the children of deported parents while, at the same time, experiencing a mini-recession created by the void left behind when a large number of employees quit spending money in your community. Believe it or not, communities in our area even have emergency preparedness seminars on what to do if a large business in our area experiences such a raid.

Arrgggggggggh!!! In my opinion, this should not be happening. A) We do not need instant citizens who do not understand or appreciate the value of "rule of law" that this country was founded upon. If we grant citizenship to massive numbers of illegals, the next step is elections that will draw the votes of millions of misguided new voters. Before we know it, our country won't resemble the one these people fled to. B) One of the major effects of the Civil War was to outlaw slavery. Now, we have something that bears a close resemblance to slavery. Just because you "pay" people doesn't make them free. These illegal workers are, in many ways, just like slaves.

I really wish there were a humane way to send these people home. At the very least, we should NOT offer them citizenship just because we feel sorry for them. Basically, we need more than the HONOR SYSTEM we have now with immigration. People flood in here all the time, and NOTHING is done except the occasional raid. One statistic I saw said that less than 3,000 illegals per year are deported in the entire U.S. With estimates of a total illegal population of 2-3 million, that deportation number might as well be zero. I get the impression that people in Central and South America know more about our immigration system then any of us do. They come here with virtually no fear of leaving, and there is even talk of Congress permanently opening both our southern and northern borders for passport-free travel.


cela
Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Lynn_B] #468650
11/15/08 09:29 PM
11/15/08 09:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,582
Hudson Falls, New York
V
Vance - Crime Editor Offline
BellaOnline Editor
Vance - Crime Editor  Offline
BellaOnline Editor
Wolf
V

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,582
Hudson Falls, New York
Originally Posted By: Lynn_B
The movement of US companies into Mexico started in the 1960's (the maquiladora movement), which predates NAFTA a good 30 years. The same holds true for countries like India. We make it nearly impossible for companies to grow here in the U.S. (unionization, high payroll costs above market levels, forced contributions from employers towards insurance and other extras, high unemployment insurance contributions, high contributions for workers compensation, etc.). If their leaders/boards/CEO's want to grow, they have to locate somewhere they can do that. I don't like it; but it makes good fiscal sense for the companies who are trying to stay afloat.

If we want to keep jobs here, we have to make it easier for companies to be here.

But, the movement of jobs is not the root cause of the current instability. What we have is a nation of people (individuals, corporations, government) - myself included - living on credit, refusing to save, over extending their obligations. When people refuse to meet their obligations, the entities that extended the credit fail. Our whole economy is wrapped up in this network of borrowing, borrowing, borrowing. The house of cards has fallen. Banks can't make loans because they don't have liquidity. Businesses can't get loans for payroll and have to lay people off. People are laid off and have no money to pay towards their obligations; and the cycle just continues.

If we'd quit trying to find something/someone to blame (NAFTA, the Republicans, the Democrats, fat cat businessmen, Joe Blow down the road, etc.) and start looking in the mirror and owning up to what we've done to ourselves we might get somewhere.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there that just aren't comfortable with that; and really need to have someone just step in, toss some money and platitudes at the "problem," and sweep the whole mess away for them.


I am looking in the mirror and wasn't me that put Flint, Michigan in near poverty. It wasn't me that made Michigan number one in unemployment in the country. It wasn't me that put this country in excess of a trillion dollars in debt. A company I used to work for in the 90's shut its doors and put hundreds of people out of work to move to Mexico. We are allowing all of our stuff to be assembled in Mexico and China because it is cheaper. I didn't cause that. Someone has to be blamed for that. Opening up the borders for free trade aided in the mess we are in now. Do you think people in control at companies would not rather pay 1.50 an hour as opposed to 14.00 an hour? People were against NAFTA and now CAFTA from jump street just as they were for the bailout. After the bailout, AIG big wigs spent over 400,000 dollars for their executives to take a retreat to Hawaii. Is that my fault too?

Last edited by Vance Wrestling and Crime; 11/15/08 09:29 PM.

Vance Rowe
Crime Editor
Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Vance - Crime Editor] #468664
11/15/08 10:58 PM
11/15/08 10:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 228
Bellingham, Washington, USA
Silverwolf Offline
Shark
Silverwolf  Offline
Shark

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 228
Bellingham, Washington, USA
Vance? I'd love to see Congress put strings on any bailout for the car makers by demanding they make their products real gas sippers - How about a minimum of say, 50 miles per gallon of gas? And I mean inter city travel, not highway, as a yardstick to giving the money out. That could save a lot of problems regardless of whether gas prices rise or fall and stretch out the time fuel makers have to come up with alternate solutions to fossil fuel use.

Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Silverwolf] #468672
11/15/08 11:18 PM
11/15/08 11:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,607
West Central IL (USA)
Lady J Offline
Elephant
Lady J  Offline
Elephant

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,607
West Central IL (USA)
VANCE, SOUNDS LIKE YOUR COMPANY WAS mAYTAG. iT ALMOST BANKRUPT A CITY WHEN IT SHUT DOWN ITS MAJOR PLANT IN ILLINOIS FOR REFRIGS AND SUCH AND MOVED TO MEXICO


J. Ruel - Gay Lesbian News Editor

Check out the latest article on the Gay Lesbian SITE or Join us in the FORUM

Questions? Comments? Story Ideas? SUBMIT THEM HERE

Former Editor of the HIV/AIDS, HAIR, HISPANIC CULTURE, and GAY LESBIAN RELATIONSHIPS sites here on BellaOnline!
Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Lady J] #468673
11/15/08 11:19 PM
11/15/08 11:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,607
West Central IL (USA)
Lady J Offline
Elephant
Lady J  Offline
Elephant

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,607
West Central IL (USA)
oops, sorry. was playing a game that requires the caps lock on and forgot to turn it off


J. Ruel - Gay Lesbian News Editor

Check out the latest article on the Gay Lesbian SITE or Join us in the FORUM

Questions? Comments? Story Ideas? SUBMIT THEM HERE

Former Editor of the HIV/AIDS, HAIR, HISPANIC CULTURE, and GAY LESBIAN RELATIONSHIPS sites here on BellaOnline!
Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Lady J] #468972
11/17/08 02:04 AM
11/17/08 02:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 437
Kalamazoo, MI
B
Barbara, GayLesbianEditor Offline
Gecko
Barbara, GayLesbianEditor  Offline
Gecko
B

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 437
Kalamazoo, MI
My dad and I were having this conversation recently. Not surprisingly, we disagree. I say that "the good old days" of someone getting a job at a factory and making enough money to support an upper middle class lifestyle (as has been true in much of Southeast Michigan for years) are long gone. I think we shouldn't try to close the borders or keep the jobs here but do what Americans do best .... innovate, create new industries and new jobs that will employ the people who would have been employed by manufacturing. The fact is that since all those other countries can do it so much more cheaply, things aren't going to change. Thus, it seems a better use of our time to find an alternative than to rail against it. In the interests of full disclosure: I live in Michigan and my dad was unemployed during the last auto industry crisis in the 70s. I know it's awful but I'm also pragmatic: since it isn't going to change, what can we do?


Barbara Sharpe

Re: Auto bailout? [Re: Barbara, GayLesbianEditor] #468973
11/17/08 02:06 AM
11/17/08 02:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 437
Kalamazoo, MI
B
Barbara, GayLesbianEditor Offline
Gecko
Barbara, GayLesbianEditor  Offline
Gecko
B

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 437
Kalamazoo, MI
And about immigration: Keep in mind that unless you are native american, all of you came from immigrants. Perhaps not brown skinned people from Mexico, but immigrants nonetheless. The Irish were just as vilified as lazy, etc back in their time. It isn't new.


Barbara Sharpe

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Brand New Posts
Happy Birthday, William Herschel
by Mona - Astronomy. 11/19/19 07:03 AM
2019: On this day . . .
by Mona - Astronomy. 11/19/19 06:50 AM
Midnight Family, 158 Others Vie For Best Doc Oscar
by Angela - Drama Movies. 11/13/19 11:53 PM
What is Thanksgiving all about?
by JOY (Self Development). 11/13/19 06:21 PM
Sew Easy Christmas Wreaths
by Cheryl - Sewing Editor. 11/13/19 04:54 PM
The Booksellers Doc Gets Theatrical Release
by Angela - Drama Movies. 11/08/19 02:47 AM
Toronto Film Fest News
by Angela - Drama Movies. 11/08/19 02:20 AM
Review Skillshare Course by Delores Naskrent
by Digital Art and Animation. 11/07/19 01:55 PM
Finish Fraying Fabric Edges
by Cheryl - Sewing Editor. 11/07/19 05:43 AM
Actress Catherine Deneuve Hospitalized
by Angela - Drama Movies. 11/07/19 01:26 AM
Privacy
This forum uses cookies to ensure smooth navigation from page to page of a thread. If you choose to register and provide your email, that email is solely used to get your password to you and updates on any topics you choose to watch. Nothing else. Ask with any questions!
Channel List
Beauty & Self
Books & Music
Career
Computers
Education
Family
Food & Wine
Health & Fitness
Hobbies & Crafts
Home & Garden
Money
News & Politics
Relationships
Religion & Spirituality
Sports
Travel & Culture
TV & Movies
Safety
We take forum safety very seriously here at BellaOnline. Please be sure to read through our Forum Guidelines. Let us know if you have any questions or comments!
Sponsor


| About BellaOnline | Privacy Policy | Advertising | Become an Editor |
Website copyright © 2019 Minerva WebWorks LLC. All rights reserved.


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1