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Shay brought up Taoism on a thread I had going elsewhere, and it made me realize that I really don't know much about this religion/philosophy.

I've always kind of equated it in my mind with Buddhism.

So I wanted to see who all studies this, and what it is all about. I'm reading about it elsewhere on the web, but it always makes such a difference when I hear about religions from the people that celebrate them.

Thanks!

Hi Chelle:

I consider myself a Taoist. Some people see it as a religion, some as a philosophy. I, myself, see it as a philosophy. I think that is something each person would have to judge for themselves. It is based on a book of short chapters or parables called the "Tao Te Ching" by Lao Tsu, who may be one person or a group of writers. But nevertheless it is an ancient writing. The chapters are not easily understood. At first glance they seem to make no sense. They are not meant to be read, but thought over and pondered. Everyone comes away with a differnt meaning or feeling from the chapters.
It's symbol is the Yin Yang. Most people who know a little about it see it as black and white. But it is much more complex than that. It symbolizes the whole of Daoism. Not just black and white but all opposites. male/female cold/hot, creation/destruction. In fact it represents all opposites in the universe, for everything has an opposite. The two small dots of opposite color in each side symbolizes that nothing is ever all of one thing. In the sun you will find shadow and beneath the moon you will find light. The two "tadpole" shapes represent the opposites and one comes to a point at the fat end of the other. This symbolizes the growing and waning of all things. For everything starts out small at it's minimum and grows to it's maximum, it then changes to the opposite and starts with the minimum of that.
creation and destruction is a large and very important part of daoism and represents the two halves the best for there can not be creation without destruction and vice versa. Destruction is not seen as a bad thing. but a necessary thing.
An example used is a forest. A forest starts out small and grows to it's maximum. When it becomes as large as it can be the taller limbs shade the undergrowth and causes it to die (minimum destruction) but it will take a fire to clean out the dead debree beneath (max destruction) only then can the forest resume growing again.
I try to remember this in all things. Like the financial trouble of today. Banks grew to their max, to the point they could not grow anymore. Now the destructive cycle starts and when it is over, new systems will be created and everything will be balanced and made right again.
Daoism seeks that balance.. balance is everything in Daoism. Everything in life goes through a creative and destructive cycle. Even we humans. We grow up/we grow old.. we die and retun to the earth to start the cycle over.
Doaist believe in Chi.. a life force that flows through all things. It passes from one thing to another. I explained it this way when I was teaching it... The sun warms a rock fence by day and holds that heat, at night when the world is chilled that stone still holds it's heat and passes it to the small rabbit that finds refuge next to it to stay warm. Chi is the bases of karma... the energy you pass on will come back to you eventually.. maybe not from that person but in some way. If someone is rude to you which causes you to be rude to someone else, you pass that negative chi on, if you instead decide to be kind to the next person you have changed that Chi to positive. Either way it will return to you later. Chi is neutral.. neither negative or positive... it just is... it is earth energy. What you do with it and how you decide to use it makes it creative or destructive.
There is no good/bad or negative/positive or good/evil in Daoism. There are only cycles separated into Yin and Yang.
The balance comes not from a perfect point between creative and destructive, but is found in the tilting back and forth. A scale, even when balanced will gently rock back and forth. The hope is that it will never careen to one side or the other. extreme creation is as chaotic as extreme destruction. Cancer is an example of extreme creation when the cells grow too much.

I am so sorry this got so long. It's just not something that can be explained in a few sentences. I am sure I have forgotten a few things and there may be others who have a different take on it. As I said, everyone comes away with a different lesson.
The very first sentence in the Tao Te Ching says... " if you can speak the Tao, it is not the true Tao." It also says:( my translation)The Tao is like a pool of water, you can only see the surface, what is deeper is hidden and must be looked for.

So you decide.. religion or philosophy?
May your life be balanced

Bylen

Hello Bylen !! Excellent description and an excellent philosophy !! Chi is a life force and energy that is healing and restorative. We westerners need to seek out its benefits !! Glad to see your post !!!!

Thank you Flaxman. I know I left a lot out, but I think I hit the basics

Hi Bylen,

Thank you for the wonderful post. It describes Taoism very well.

Michelle,

I am not a Taoist. However, I am somehow familiar with this philosophy/religion as I grew up with many Taoists. Depends on the region you speak to, Taoism can be seen both as a branch of philosophy and a religion. Many parts of the Asia practice the �secular� Taoism as a religion where many rituals are performed on specific dates where believers use food and flowers as offerings to the gods and the past spirits (ancestors, loved ones�ect.). There is a fundamental belief that these rituals not only show their respect, believers in return will be well cared for through these devotional practices. Incents are commonly used in prayers. However, in the West, I noticed that Taoism is seen mainly as philosophy. In my mind, it is a more accurate recognition as I saw that in the �secular� Taoism practices, many important aspects of Tao were lost.

Basic beliefs of Buddhism include reincarnation, suffering, and karma. In contract, Taoism focuses on balance and the �way� of life. Instead of focusing one�s karma from the past lives or its effects into future incarnation, Taoists concentrate on living in the present moment. In addition, Buddhists view life as full of suffering whereas Taoists focus on blending the nature and oneself in order to achieve the harmonic balance of life. Taoism teaches that life can be essentially good.

Another major difference between Taoism and Buddhism is their origins.

Buddhism is based on the teaching of Siddhattha Gotama from ancient India. Buddhism did eventually spread into China as well as many parts of the world and became the most prevalent religion in China. In contrast, Taoism is based on the teaching and philosophy of Tao Te Ching authored by Laozi, an ancient Chinese philosopher of the 6th century BC (some historian argued that he lived around 4th century BC). Taoism was not officially recognized until the Tang Dynasty.

As Bylen said, there are lots about Taoism than one can say in a single post, but I hope this helps.

Cara

Beautifully put Cara. Thank you for reminding me of this aspect of it. I think also the difference in Taoism and Buddhism is the social aspect of it. Buddhism tends to focus on society and a persons place in that society more than Taoism... would you concur?
Feng Shui originated in Taoist ritualism. It began with the placement of graves. It's become commercialized in our western culture though

Bylen

I agree. I think Buddhism calls more for social responsibility of an individual. In terms of Feng Shui, I am not sure if it began with placement of the graves. It's one school of argument. I have to look more into it.

Bylen, I just now notice the quote following your post ".... when we stop fearing we can truly love." How true!

Hi Balen,
It's so great to meet another Taoist here on BellaOnline. Welcome!

There are a couple of translations of Tao Teh Cheng - one is more difficult to understand than the other. Which do you have? I have the version translated by John C. H. Wu, and find it very inspiring and easy to understand. I love the fact that you can just open up the book at any page, and read a daily passage.

I haven't been in a while, but my SunDo yoga class, which is Tao based has a passage read by the teacher at the end of each class. We have a brief discussion on the meaning, and what it might bring to mind on that day. It's really wonderful.

I love passage 41:
"When a wise scholar hears the Tao,
He practices it diligently.
When a mediocre scholar hears the Tao,
He wavers between belief and unbelief.
When a worthless scholar hears the Tao,
He laughs boisterously at it.
But if such a one does not laugh at it,
The Tao would not be the Tao!"

It then goes on about the opposites...
"The bright way looks dim.
The progressive way looks retrograde.
The smooth way looks rugged." ...etc

I also see the Tao as a philosophy, but I love what Cara said about "secular" Taoism as a religion, and the Western version as a philosophy. In my SunDo class, there is a lot of ritual posing set to a specific chant. It is wonderfully relaxing, but I do have a difficult time with sticking to rituals. What I really relate to about the Taoist philosophy is embracing the wholeness of life, and it's never ending and blending shifts from "darkness" to "light." In Michelle's thread that led to this one, I mentioned quantum physics and how it blends with the Tao - the humbling factors of the "proof" of how opposites contain one another. There are scientifically, no "edges," and yet, there most undeniably are edges! You could contemplate that for hours!

Shay

And above someone mentioned that the Yin-Yang originated in Tao.

It kind of makes me think of the saying "two sides of the same coin". They are opposite, yet connected.

I can definitely see the appeal in this.

Yes, yes - rather than the struggle with choosing a side to define oneself with, the Tao allows the recognition of one existing in relationship with the other. And the acceptance that perfection within oneself on the side of, say, "infinite good" for example, is a tough order to fill - as I do stand by my personal convictions, yet am not inclined to "fight" for my "rightness." I guess I'm not much of a fighter, though a throwing around of ideas is highly appealing.

I actually was a "born again" Christian long ago, but struggled with the fact that God allowed "satan" to fall to the earth, to influence innocent humans - then the humans get judged/blamed for unwittingly falling prey to it. (This is in no way to scrutinize anyone who embraces this idea with full understanding - just an admission that personally, I couldn't.) I realized that this belief was not something I could get my arms/mind around, and so moved on. It was really just last year that I discovered the Tao. I now feel relaxed and comfortable with the idea that both exist for a purpose. Understanding the "ultimate" purpose isn't my burden, but the aside feeling that it doesn't matter, appeals to me. I simply trust that it matters on some level, and that's enough for me.

I also want to thank you, Michelle, for opening up the notion of the Tao on the Philosophy Site. Thanks!

Shay

Beautifully, said, Cara.

I have read about Toaism as a religion, in a kind of dedication to Lao Tzu (there are many spellings!) and his apiphanies. I also agree that if you are actively worshipping an entity or deity in the Tao, that the essential meaning of the Tao is lost. The basis being, that worship is a meandering from the central focus that all is equal; in balance. But, that being said, I also see clearly that in many human beings, the need to worship and perform rituals is inherent, and a part of the whole.

Shay

I think rituals are a manifestation of beliefs. Something concrete that you can lay your hands on. Some people need that and some don't. Rituals can be beautiful. I don't do rituals, but saying that is probably an oxymoron because I believe we all do rituals even if we don't realize it. Which shoe do you put on first in the morning? Is it always the same one? rituals can be so small we don't recognize them as such.

I use to teach Taoism and one of the big stumbling blocks for my students was the idea of "do nothing". I often got the response. "I don't agree. if you do nothing then you won't strive for anything. If I saw someone having a heart attack I'm suppose to just walk past and do nothing?"
people interpret things different, for me it meant.. accept that which comes to you. What is meant for you to do will be put in your path.
My favorite verse in the bible has a very taoist feel to it.
To everything there is a season, and a purpose to everything under heaven.

In the Buddhist faith it translates to: "When the student is ready the master will come"

Shay the Tao Te Ching I have is translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. But they do not do my favorite translation of my favorite chapter which is:

Chapter 17
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!

I can see you obtain great peace from Taoism, as do I.

Bylen

I see rituals as a way to become closer to to one's onw god. Rituals are repetetive. it gived the layperson, that may not have time to reserch each religion, a basia of whethr the rituals are going to be something theycan live with.

Rituals are greast as far as learning the basics of an religion. But everyone must grow beyone the basics if that wish to continue growing. use the rituals as a gudelines byt which to live, but make your decisions on your own. If you are not strong enough to make your own decision - then you nee more support.

Michelle

Thank you, Shay.

I believe that rituals are important to mankind. However, the secular religious Taoists whom I knew growing up (and I knew many of them) truly did not practice the essence of Tao. The rituals almost seemed superstitious at times, and that was the aspect I struggled with the most.

The essence of Tao is beautiful as it calls for peace and balance of one's life with the nature. It's quite abstract yet more sensible and practical than many other branches of philosophy on how one should approach life.

Michelle,
I agree with you on this one. I think one must be strong enough to make his/her decisions on spiritual beliefs. Rituals are simply guidelines, and cannot be followed without one's further understanding in the religion as it simply defeats the purpose.

I think rituals are a manifestation of beliefs. Something concrete that you can lay your hands on. Some people need that and some don't. Rituals can be beautiful. I don't do rituals, but saying that is probably an oxymoron because I believe we all do rituals even if we don't realize it. Which shoe do you put on first in the morning? Is it always the same one? rituals can be so small we don't recognize them as such.

I use to teach Taoism and one of the big stumbling blocks for my students was the idea of "do nothing". I often got the response. "I don't agree. if you do nothing then you won't strive for anything. If I saw someone having a heart attack I'm suppose to just walk past and do nothing?"
people interpret things different, for me it meant.. accept that which comes to you. What is meant for you to do will be put in your path.
My favorite verse in the bible has a very taoist feel to it.
To everything there is a season, and a purpose to everything under heaven.

In the Buddhist faith it translates to: "When the student is ready the master will come"

Shay the Tao Te Ching I have is translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. But they do not do my favorite translation of my favorite chapter which is:

Chapter 17
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!

I can see you obtain great peace from Taoism, as do I.

Bylen

Bylen,
I agree with your interpretation of accepting that which comes to you... as the idea of "do nothing" in Tao. Much of the Tao I understand simply defines as "go with the flow". I think most of us spend too much time fighting against the "flow" (chi). Regardless of one's religious beliefs, we cannot deny that life has a "flow", be it God's will, divine intervention, karma or simply "it", and that "it" is not within human control. Accepting the flow means honoring and respecting our connection with the universe, and that's Tao.

Even though I am not a Taoist, I am very glad to hear from a few true Taoists here on the forum.

Thank you for your input, Bylen.

Cara:
It is odd that you said "fighting against the flow". This is exactly the way I use to teach it. I would tell them if you swim against the tide you get no where, but if you relax and trust it, you will eventual end up where you need to be.
Several times while posting I have been reminded of the christian faith. They have much in common. The "let go and let God" phrase says the same thing.
But then I have often felt that Taoism and the teachings of Jesus are very similiar.

Bylen

Hi Bylen,

Yes, I somehow find the letting go aspect of the Tao is very similar to what is taught in the Christian faith. Letting go of our human struggles is an important step towards realization for mankind. Perhaps it is the "way" as taught in Tao. I believe that there are fundamental laws of the universe, and these laws do not change regardless the contexts of religion.

Cara

Hi Balen and Cara,
I can see that I have missed out on quite the conversation, here!

Forgive me, as I dig deeply into the infinite Tao, and prove myself terribly wrong!

I admit that, being a former "born again" Christian, I do have difficulty with the juxtaposition of the Christian religion, and the non-religious Tao philosophy. When one refers to "the teachings of Christ" in relationship with the Tao, I feel myself fading off, and I'll explain why.

For me, the teachings of Christ are confined within a religious framework. Religious deities and biblical teachings expound upon the existence of a "Holy Father" or "God" who incarnated "Himself" as a man, born to a virgin, then sacrificed "Himself" for the "sins" of mankind. This concept was then adopted in a political sense, and countries were "purged" of individuals who did not conform to the belief. For me, this is a political system based upon a fable, and teaches a belief in an entity/lifestyle that the Tao cannot adhere to - i.e. the acknowledgement and existence of an nameable "God," who demands worship. In this light, Christianity and the belief in, and worship of, a "man/God" and what "He" presumably taught, for myself, has little or nothing to do with the teachings of the Tao; until, of course it becomes simply a part of the dichotomy of humanity - of a way of expressing parts of humanities need/want for many things. It then can blend with its opposite; the existence of the "anti-Christ," which is again, an expression of the dissection the of opposites of mankind's wants/needs - which one either worships or fights against. Inherently, "Jesus" is the opposite of the "devil," and the two are perpetually at war for ultimate power.

I really don't mean to be a wet blanket on the Jesus-Tao comparison. I do understand the abstract comparison, but the Christian religion in general isn't something that I feel can honestly be in the same philosophy as the true Tao - the blending and acceptance of all things - as outside forces, and the ones that exist within.

...yet here we are again...at the beginning of the acceptance of all things...

18

"When the Great Tao was abandoned,
There appeared humanity and justice.
When intelligence and wit arose,
There appeared great hypocrites.
When the six relations lost their harmony,
there appeared filial piety and paternal kindness.
When darkness and disorder began to reign in a kingdom,
There appeared the royal ministers."

Shay

Ah yes, Cara.
The Tao gives me peace because it asks for no rituals. It allows me to accept myself; to take myself seriously, then experience self deprication, then feel confused, then laugh out loud at my human attachment to silly ideals; then shift back into seriousness, and on and on. And to do the same with others, and their ideals. It is truly humbling, and levels the ground for all of humanity. In this way, all becomes sacred - truly, truly awesome.

Shay

Shay, you are right. The true Tao asks for no rituals, but it brings peace. It's interesting to see that Tao is taken somehow more seriously in the West than in its origin. Regardless, it's a good thing.

Hi Shay:

I meant the actual teachings of Christ. I think the spiritual aspect of a belief is different from the religious aspects of it. All religions start with a philosophical belief and the religion is added later. The rituals and bylaws are usually not a part of the origional teachings.
Take Taoism as an example. You've been comparing the actual belief with the religious Taoism. Cara talked about it being taken more serious in the west. That, I think, is because in the west only the belief is focused on, but in the east it has become a "practice".
Not sure if I am making sense on this. But if you stop thinking about the Christian religion and only focus on what jesus said.. on his words and his teachings, they have much in common. The belief is there before religion is born. I see this as the difference between spirituality and religion.
Belief or spirituality is what is there to begin with, religion is what man decides to do with it.
You can disagree with the religion and still agree with the belief. Just as I do not agree with the Taoist religion, but I am deffinitly a Taoist in belief... thus I see it as a philosophy, while others may make it a religion.
Christianity is a religion based on the philosophy of Jesus.
"Taoism" is a religion based on Tao philosophy.

No religion was ever created around the babblings of an idiot. it is when wise people teach wise things that people decide to follow them. Some people need manifestations of that belief so they have rituals and religion. others do not necessarily need manifestations and thy do not follow a religious practice.

I say.. to each his own

Bylen

I totally hear you, Balen. If there were indeed a Jesus, the Tao would be in sync with his message. It matters not of the religion his followers would create, in his name.

Both the Tao and the teachings of Christ were one of fundamental acceptance of the core pulse of all that "is."

You are also so right that everyone recieves the Tao in individual ways, according to their own personal nature, in relationship to the nature of the earth. As it should be.

Blessings,
Shay

Shay?

I viewed your profile but it doesn't say how old you are? Would you mind if I ask?
You have great wisdom. I was just wondering if you are one of those old souls born into the world wise, or if you learned it along the way.
There are those who seem to be born with the ability to learn from life early, those who learn it along the way, and those who never take the time to learn at all. I know you are one of the first two... but which one?

Hugs
Bylen

Hi Balen,

I wish I could answer your question in its full capacity, yet I am honored by it. I can tell you that I am 46 years old.

Beyond my years of age, I can offer you only that I can remember being an infant, and having the distict understanding that all human beings are connected by a single source.

It has been a painful, yet rewarding lesson for me that not many people share my view. I am by no means a perfect student of the Tao. I am horrified by the atrocities that I see among humanity, yet through these feelings, I am reminded that all is what it is, with or without my responses. I can then come around to the feeling of peace and joy, that it is what it is because....well, it is. Then I revel in (I am nearly owned by) the moments when the light streams through the trees, and the moss covered stumps sit silently, the dried leaves drift from where, in the springtime they thrived and filled me, and now fill me again. In these moments, I realize the sacredness of life.

Hugs to you, Teacher,
Shay

I had a friend that was wanting to be a cathloic monk. Unfortunatly they turned him down. But he stayed at the monestary every summer and learned all he could. He was only 21 but wise beyond his years. I mention this because he asked me if I had ever been overwhelemed by the beauty of life. I said yes.
He said, there is a word for it.. "beautific vision". When you suddenly for an instant see the beauty in everything around you.
Being a taoist can be lonely, there's not really anyone to talk to about it. And if there were.. well, where are the words to explain it?

You are right Shay, no one is immune. I am sure a Taoist who can remove themselves from the world and sit and meditate all day would be immune, but to what purpose? Those of us who must relate to the world around us, have to accept it and do the best with it that we can.
I, by no means, live a Taoist life every single minute. I still get angry, I still feel sad. And sometimes I have to conciously remind myself of my own philosophy.
I think that is the way it is with any belief. We all fall short.. it is the striving that counts. But I also think that eventually it becomes who you are and you don't necessarily have to think on it. you just become it.

I wouldn't say I was born wise. perhaps born with eyes open, but it took a lifetime for me to learn what I was seeing, with some mistakes along the way, and great pain. I'll not go into the long explaination here.. if you are interested I posted my story on the Spirituality forum under the topic "miracles".

Hugs
Bylen

Very well said, Bylen.

I went over to the Spirituality, Miracle thread and read your story. It's amazing.

"Beautific vision." I love it. And yes, exactly, if you can speak of the Tao, it is not the Tao. One can only speak of one's experiences on the level of spiritual belief, or longing.

I guess I could say that I was born wise, to a mother who was mentally ill, and could only see the world as a force that was "against" her. She was only capable of seeing me as someone who could potentially harm her - as she did with all six of her children. She became what is termed, as "separator." She orchestrated her children in such a way as to keep us from being close to each other - in that way she could have total control. She got to tune in to each of our vulnerabilities separately, and while she capitalized on that, kept us each focused on her and her pain, so that we would not be present for each other.

I was also in an abusive marriage, like yourself, (no surprise!) which reflected the one that I had with my mother. As a "wise" person who fell into the complex structure of lies that my mother believed in and taught me well, I found myself on the brink of either insanity or enlightenment toward the end of my marriage. My life had come down to these two choices. I literally stood at the edge of a psychic ledge, and made the choice of enlightenment. I chose to kick my ex to the curb, and begin my journey of healing and truth.

Much of the Tao Teh Ching is about the way of the Sage. Yet, in one passage (or chapter as they are called; yet it is difficult to relate to a chapter being a page or so long...) Lao Tzu speaks of his loneliness in comparison to those who laughed and expressed their happiness with one another. It truly is this way. Yet, to keep things in realistic perspective, Lao Tzu lived in a very different time and within the Asian culture. To maintain the type of solitude and simplicity he experienced would be nearly impossible in this century in the American capitalist society. We live in a world of worshipping "want" and chasing "happiness" through products and services that we should gladly pay money for. To find a spot in the countryside in which to contemplate nature and the nature of being, is sometimes within driving distance, if we are lucky.

So yes, it is true that it is the "striving" that really matters.

Such is chapter 13:

"'Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.
Prize calamities as your own body.'

Why should we 'welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise'?
Because a lowly state is boon:
Getting is a pleasant surprise,
Ans so is losing it!
That is why we should 'welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.'

Why should we 'prize calamities as our own body'?
Because our body is the very source of our calamities.
If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.
Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the steward of the world."

While this appears to be a tall order to fill, as you make the choice to let go, release the grip on the belief that wanting is the source of receiving, all falls into place - in truly miraculous ways.

Hugs,
Shay

I so appreciate you ladies sharing your thoughts with me.

Taoism sounds incredibly, logical to me, balanced.

I love that last passage you quoted Shay. It is a take on "what does not kill me makes me stronger", except it exlains WHY!

Bylen & Shay,
I really enjoy reading the beautiful posts between the two of you. I am very honored to have you both sharing your wisdom on the Philosophy forum.

Bylen & Shay,
Your personal stories have been inspirational to me as I can identify myself in many your experiences. I was amazed by the fact that you both have walked through such difficult past, and yet have become women of beauty (for me, beauty comes from an intelligent mind and a compassionate heart) and wisdom that are apparent in your posts. Perhaps, difficulties make us humble, and the pain gets us on our knees. It is in this place, we can truly examine ourselves and live again.

I am re-reading your posts today from both and also your story on the "Miracle" forum, Bylen. I have decided to bring out an older article on self-love, and start a new thread for it. I hope by sharing our stories, it enables others hope. BellaOnline ALERT: Raw URLs are not allowed in these forums for security reasons. Please use UBB code. If you don't know how to do UBB code just post here for help - we will help out!

Thank you so much Michelle and Cara.

I think Shay said it the best. Sometimes you stand on the precipice between insanity and enlightment and you have to make the choice.

Shay, without long detail, my mother was the same way. She was a bitter jealous woman who would verbally abuse in order to keep you at a distance. She also brainwashed me... against my father.
Because of my background, yes, I married an abuser also. Between my mother and my husband, I had completly lost who I was. But always there was a voice inside of me screaming "You don't know me. This is not who I am."
I realized that ultimatly it was my fault. I allowed it. Then I had to have the courage to change it. I started saying no and asking for respect. Man, they got so mad at me. They were not happy when I "rebelled". That's what my mother called it. I was 40 years old. They didn't know how to react, or how to change. I told my husband no more abuse. If it happened one more time I would have to leave.I told my mother,"I am here with open arms ready to love you, but I can't do that unless you are willing to love me back." I even explained to them what would have to happen if they didn't stop the abuse.
Neither of them are in my life anymore. I didn't leave them mad, or angry. I understand that they very well may not have known how to stop abusing. Whether that is the case or not, one can not sacrifice oneself to the sickness of others, even if you understand and have compassion for it. I tried discussing it with them and explaining what I needed. Neither of them would discuss it with me and said they didn't want to hear it. In the end I had no choice except to remove myself from the situation.

I think the only way we gain wisdom is to go through pain and come out the other side. Denying it, ignoring it or trying to get around it doesn't work.
It's like I tell my daughter when she is faced with something she is dreading doing...
" The only way around it is through it. Face it and get it done, or put it off and face it forever."
We deal with the same pain over and over again. It's only when we decide to face it and get it done that we don't have to face it again.

Yeah it's been a tough life But lets face it, it was my doings. A lot of the pain we face is brought on by ourselves. If I had been stronger in the beginning I wouldn't have had to face as much pain.. I've just been spending a lot of time correcting the stuff I messed up.
I've always been the type that couldn't resist examining everything about life
Sometimes, as in the Matrix, I just wish I'd take the blue pill for once, but Nooo.. always gotta go for the red one!

Bylen

Bylen,
For me, the many enlightened moments in my life have come from my deepest pain. It is through these moments of insane pain, we can finally let go.

Michelle,
Thank you so much for starting this thread. I think we have all benefited by so many wonderful posts here with much wisdom and beauty.

Cara

Cara:

You are right, life forces us to let go when something becomes too painful to hold on to. Why is it that we humans fight so hard to hang on to it, when letting go will actually free us?
We're funny creatures,aren't we? The most wonderful experience in the world to me is when that light, after a dark tunnel, finally hits your face and warms your soul.

Bylen

Bylen, it's like we have lived parallel lives. I have also removed myself from my mother's life. And I also have taken ultimate responsibility for my patterns. What I have come to understand, is that we are all born with belief systems wired in, and make choices based on these innate belief systems. We each live in our own "micro-universes" and when beliefs clash between mother and daughter, we have the choice to fight to be understood, to the bitter end; or to save grace and depart with the understanding that at the end of the day, it isn't about winning and losing, right and wrong, good and evil. It's about moving forward, and taking the daring steps into seeking who you are, for yourself and no one else. Even though it is natural for children to look up to their parents for unconditional love, guidance and understanding, eventually, if one is to live in peace, it is essential to grow into the understanding that one is not entitled to these things. How freeing it is, to simply let go of the "need" for approval - to drop the reliance on somebody else to validate who you are. As painful as it is to accept that your mother does not know you, and never will, it is equally enlightening.

Shay

Shay,

Yes, life is about moving forward, and having the courage to do so. The acceptance that no one is "entitled" to unconditional love was perhaps the most freeing part of my healing. Our modern psychology and self-help movement tell us that we are meant to be loved by our parents, siblings, and partners....etc. When the reality falls short of our expectations, there is inevitable pain. I have come to accept who people are and their capacity of love. It's a wonderful and powerful thing when we stop looking for others' approval for our self-worth. I think it's through all the painful steps we have taken, that we can finally learn how to love ourselves.

Cara

Hi all:

Wow, what a wonderful conversation we've got going here

a few years later I had the TV on while I was cleaning house. it was on the local PBS station and there was this nice kind looking grey haired man with a silver beard talking, but I didn't pay much attention until I caught something specific he said. it stoppd me in my tracks and I sat down and started watching. I found out the fellow was Robert Fulghum, the author of "All I need to know I learned in Kindergarden". I had read his books and at that point he was already my favorite author.
I can't quote it word for word, but I will try quoting it in my own words as I understand them. He said.

Women come to us men looking for the relationship and love they didn't get from their fathers. We try to fill that gap, but we fall short. The truth is. You had one opportunity for that, and now that opportunity has passed. We have to accept that and stop looking for it in others. it will and can never come again. Now that it's gone, it's gone.

Sometimes someone says something that turns the light on. His words turned the light on for me. I realized I was looking for the acceptance and love that I had been denied earlier in my life. Robert's words made me stop looking to someone else to fill that void. What I lost can never come to me again. I have learned that,and that is perfectly okay.
I have also learned that sometimes we avoid becoming true adults. We hang on to the idea of someone else caring for us, and being dependant on someone else for love. Being a true adult means taking responsibility for that yourself.

90% of what we need and expect from others is unvoiced. It is implied based on our beliefs and attitudes. This is usually what causes problems in relationships.
Think about what your definition of love is. it is probably totally different from someone elses. Based on that definition you expect certain things from a relationship.. even if it is unsaid. You assume they know.
I had a friend that told me she was slightly bothered by a comment her soon to be husband made. He said "yes, I want someone to love. You know, someone that will cook for me and wash my clothes."
At first glance this might seem callus, but to him it meant someone who loved him and cared enough about him that they wanted to make sure he was okay, healthy etc.
But because of his belief, maybe later if he came home from work hungry and she hadn't cooked he might get upset. Not because she failed to feed him, but because his fear is that.. if that is the definition of love, and she didn't do that, she must not love me.

Sometimes we have to think about what our definitions are, what we are expecting from others that is implied and unsaid and realize that they may have no idea the rules we have set for the relationship. But most of all, turn loose of those preconcieved notions we developed in life about how things are defined.

Sorry this got long, but Cara your comment about looking for approval from others, got the wheels turning in my brain I agree with everything you said, and I think you put it into words perfectly.
When we give up the idea of expectations, what we deserve and what we are denied, it is liberating and freeing. I think only when we do that are we able to love others unconditionally. We are then able to love freely without thought of what we expect in return. It allows the other person, and ourselves to give love in our own way. It allows us to accept what the other person has to give and not be thinking "yeah, but.. I wanted this."

I've had people use the phrase "love hurts" to me. I tell them, No, love never hurts. The fears and the needs we attach to those we love hurts, but love never does. When a relationship ends it isn't the love that hurts,It's the loss of something or someone we needed that hurts. If we can learn to not attach our needs to relationships and people we'd do okay. But most of the time we confuse love with needs. They're not the same.

Bylen