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Joined: Mar 2006
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Zebra
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Zebra
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First of all please understand this is not a criticism or condemnation of your parents specifically.
The thing about the older generation, is that they "didn't know any better" and were ascribing to a method of discipline considered as acceptable.
This said, if you were spanked, you were beaten. There's no two ways about it.
The limits and boundaries realised today, have some countries actually considering the factor that for an adult to smack their own child is illegal.
This is how far 'modern thinking' has come.
I feel sure that some parents are trying to administer memorable discipline, and teach a lwesson.
But tell me, would you approach an adult you know well, or a colleague, if they're annoying you, and smack them?
If they'd crossed the line, and you wanted to 'teach them a lesson' would you hit them in order to do so?
No.
You wouldn't. Because surely, as an adult, you might be able to reason with them instead. You could remove them from the point of conflict and isolate the situation....
Much as you could do with a child. Remove them from the point of action, isolate them, and reason with them.

Besides, it's assault. It's against the law to hit another human being, even if you are provoked, it's not a justifiable action. And they might hit back.

All factors unavailable to a child.
so 'administering discipline' by hitting a child, is just as unacceptable - if not more so.
The limits and boundaries are breached the moment an adult considers laying one single finger on a child in order to inflict pain as a means of 'teaching a lesson'. Trying to hurt the child? Of course they were! The memory of pain is a fear-ful lesson!

And with regard to your signature? A very good one.
This is what I stand for. the complete and total elimination of violence against any individual inflicted upon them willfully by another.


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Originally Posted By: Alexandra

I completely disagree.
Respect is something you should have from day one, for everything and anything that has as much right to live, breathe, eat, sleep and be protected as much as you deserve to be.
Whatever rights you believe you may have as a human being - to shelter, warmth, protection and nourishment, in whatever measure keeps you functioning - then other beings have that equal right.


Well, that's a fair statement of your position. I don't agree, and never will, but that would seem to be the basis of why we differ on corporal punishment.

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Zebra
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Explain to me, please, why you think it's acceptable to use physical force to subdue another human being, who is in no position to either defend themselves or to retaliate.
Tell me what on earth could possibly be right about hitting another human being who, as an adult, would be within their rights to file a legal complaint of violence or actual bodily harm against you, but simply because they are under-age, don't have a leg to stand on?

Truly.
I really would be interested to know what your view is.

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Originally Posted By: Alexandra
Tell me what on earth could possibly be right about hitting another human being who, as an adult, would be within their rights to file a legal complaint of violence or actual bodily harm against you, but simply because they are under-age, don't have a leg to stand on?


Because they are your child. That is a full, complete reason that does not require supplementation or elaboration of any kind. The relationship between a parent and a dependent child is not like any other relationship between human beings.

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Respect is not something that is earned. Trust is something that is earned. Every person has a right to be respected. I agree that it is a basic right to have respect for your being and your person. I am not sure I understand the reasoning that because the child is 'your child,' then you may discipline using physical punishment. Parents do not 'own' their children. This is not an ownership issue. Regardless of whether or not it is 'your child' they do not deserve to be hit in any form. An adult would not go up to another adult and hit them because they were angered by them. Yet, daily, children are being hit and beaten by adults. Another factor to look at would be the fear that children feel when being abused or hit in some form. Do the children that are physically punished respect their parents or do they fear them? I believe it is the latter. I believe that children who are physically hurt react with compliance out of fear, not out of respect. Physical punishment does not breed or foster respect, which brings us full circle on the respect issue. Again, respect is not earned, it is a right that everyone has, regardless of gender or age.

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Originally Posted By: Janet_Boyer
I feel many parents aren't confident enough to let their children be individuals. So in order to keep them in line (or exert control over them because THEY feel inadequate or under control), they try to make kids into little obedient robots.

And, for the most part, this doesn't necessarily result in "obedient" or adjusted adults--but, rather, people who grow up to feel shame for being their unique self.

I agree with Lisa: those who hit lack the skills to invest in their children and are intimidated by feeling/being out of control--so they lash out in fear ("Oh my! What will my grandparents think if my children aren't 'kept in line'?!").

<snip>


Originally Posted By: Lisa Low Carb Ed
I think the question is - would a parent really feel that beating a child was the "best" way to discipline them? There are hundreds of other punishments which are as effective and meaningful. They just might take more effort on the parents' parts.

So are they taking the quick/easy way out?


I totally agree with Janet and Lisa's points here.

I think the reason we are seeing the "Time-outs"* etc NOT working (ie, undisciplined kids running amok) is because it takes a bit of skill and creativity and time to work out how to "control" your child non-violently. Many, many parents simply don't have the time especially, some also lack the skills and imagination, to get into a long-term system of gently correcting and nurturing their child towards good behaviour.

The easy way out is smacking that child. Sadly, as others have noted, it may be the quick and easy way at the time, but it sets back the long-term positive system, sometimes permanently.

The visible result to the general public is a lot of children who are undisciplined, either because the parents haven't got the mix right, or because the parents caved and lost ground by smacking.

That time and energy a parent can put into positive behavioural nurturing is an investment, and these situations may improve vastly if more parents saw it as an investment in their child's wellbeing, rather than a chore that is easier dealt with in the negative.

(* not saying "time-out" is the best punishment, just picked it up as an example from one of the other posts.)


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Let me start by saying that I don't have children myself, so I can only speak about what I witness on a day to day basis out in the community.

That being said.... I was hit very rarely as a child--maybe 3 times my whole life. I still had a healthy fear of my father and did not disobey him often. He treated us well, but the things I hear 90% of children (even the ones most people would say are the "good" kids) say to their parents, would have gotten me a slap on the face for sure. It didn't happen because I treated him with respect.

So he didn't use force to get me to behave, and he didn't threaten it either. I just seemed to know not to mess around. Maybe because it was just us and him, I'm not sure. I don't know how parents should go about disciplining their kids today, but I do see how poorly behaved so many children are nowadays..

So what does work? How do you get your kids to grow up as decent human beings?


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Originally Posted By: Sue R.
Because they are your child. That is a full, complete reason that does not require supplementation or elaboration of any kind. The relationship between a parent and a dependent child is not like any other relationship between human beings.


Any human can spawn a new life. It does not take skill, it only takes an easy sex act. I don't believe that that sex act then gives one of those people unlimited rights to hit or yell at or mistreat the child. There are numerous laws to support this position. A parent has a relationship with a child - and so does a teacher, so does an adoptive parent, so does a mentor, so does a stepparent. A mother or father is not "uniquely special" in any meaningful way, that gives them a right to abuse a child. A mother or father is held to the same standards of society as any other adult. They need to treat that child with care and respect for their rights.

It concerns me if parents feel "just because I happened to have sex with the mom, I now have the right to beat the child". That does not make any sense to me. Contributing sperm towards an egg in a 10-minute session does not give you unlimited rights to do anything you want to a legally protected child that is in being months or years later.


Lisa Shea, Low Carb and Video Games Editor
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Originally Posted By: Sue R

The relationship between a parent and a dependent child is not like any other relationship between human beings.

Too damn right it isn't - but look at what you've said here...
Let me get this straight...

You're implying that the very fruit of your loins, the being you end up loving unconditionally - is the person you have a right to inflict violence upon.
Strangers, and people outside of your circle, whom you feel may not be deserving of your unconditional feelings, or may fall outside the scope of any affection - you wouldn't hit.

Screwy, really, isn't it?

Last edited by Alexandra; 04/29/08 12:25 AM.
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Lisa, Alexandra, Elle and Kelli, I agree with all of you.

Sue...your supposed "full, complete reason that does not require supplementation or elaboration of any kind." reply sounds like what an abusive person would say because they really don't have a good reason for what they've done but would rather absolve themselves from any real responsibilty for their actions.

For Example: Like, "Because I'm your mother, that's why"
Or "Do as I say, not as I do"

What are these statements REALLY saying? I don't need to or have to explain myself because I am a "perfect parent" unfailible, un-flawed, I am above any critizism because I HAD A CHILD. Like Lisa said, anyone can spawn a child.
Whoop-dee-do...your still human. What a shame.

That comment to me rings loudly with OTHER issues, not about being a PARENT and "raising" a child, but more about control and self rightousness and power.

What ever happened to "talking". What ever happened to setting a good example and being a good role model?

My father would throw BS at me like that sometimes, he'd say "Because I said so, that's why" he felt belittled if he was asked to explain himself to his child...his puney little child who deserves no respect, no explaination for why they are hit...I'm sorry but it's just wrong to me. And not only that but it destorys any chance a parent would ever have of acknolweding that maybe, just maybe THEY'RE NOT RIGHT ALL THE TIME...they make mistakes too, but when you don't allow for any discussion or respectful exchange of views you destroy learning, you stunt growth and you engrain ignorance.

***I feel many parents aren't confident enough to let their children be individuals. So in order to keep them in line (or exert control over them because THEY feel inadequate or under control), they try to make kids into little obedient robots***

I think fear has a lot to do with it for sure.

Just out of curiostiy Sue, since you say respect must be earned...what does a young child do for an adult exactly that would earn them such "respect" anyway?

When you say they earn the respect, does that mean after they've done whatever that is, then you don't spank them afterwards ever again because they've "earned" the respect at that point?

I think maybe your definition of respect is a little twisted...like it means, as long as the child never does anything you view as "wrong" or you don't "like", they are being respectful...but the minute they do something you don't particularly like or want them to do, they should be "spanked" for it?

All I can say is...what a shame...

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