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#320225 06/07/07 03:41 AM
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Most of the relationships end in pain. Why do we still desire to get into one? Should one not try to live life alone in happiness?

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das #320258 06/07/07 08:17 AM
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All relationships end in pain.
Is being alone any happier?
No. People hate being alone and in pain, so they find a relationship, but the happiness is transitory.
So - pain if you do, and pain if you don't.

Trick is, to rise above it.

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Because being alone is downright lonely, and even an abusive relationship isn't painful every minute. But I disagree that all relationships end in pain, though my grandmother would agree with you. My mother was in two bad marriages, and has been with my second stepdad for 23 years and sure they don't get along 100% of the time, but they do about 80% of the time and even when they argue it is more of a disagreement discussion than anything. It can happen.

Besides, it's less depressing to think it's possible to be happy with another person than to think all relationships are doomed.

Dez

Last edited by Dez; 06/07/07 08:41 AM.
Dez #320267 06/07/07 09:21 AM
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I would say that most relationships end in pain, not all. I have seen some couples in love for very long.

das #320283 06/07/07 10:13 AM
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A relationship is a living thing, and as such, it has growth and it has dormancy. There will be times it blooms, and times it withers - and there will certainly be times of heartbreak. You should try not to think of it in a linear fashion , i.e: the relationship begins and heads down this path of happiness on and on. It's circular ,as is all in life, and there are times the arc feels a long way from returning to a place of contentment. Does this mean every relationship should be maintained? No , some just won't work, and they should be left behind. But I think ( hope ) it does mean that there are painful times but we can use those times to stitch together new patches of our bonding.
Your remark about being alone does carry a bit of a clue. Maybe you could use some alone time to get centered within yourself and grow and explore. Sometimes we end up with a lot of painful experiences in relationships because we're not clear on what we are looking for. We can then make the mistake of picking the wrong people, or becoming enamored by the " first blush of love" stage of a relationship, which cannot last.
I'm alone now for the first time in a long time, and I am seeing myself clearly and seeing the ways in which I had problems within my last relationship because I overlooked my own changes and growth in order to adapt and conform to the relationship. Not only did I not grow- the relationship did not. Two emotionally atrophied people cannot produce a vital relationship.
If I could do it over, I would have spent time really getting in touch with myself before entering a relationship, and once I did enter one, I would ensure that we were both emotionally and mentally " signed on" for the long haul, and not just the ups and the highs.
As Maroon 5 put it ( lol ) " It's not always rainbows and butterflies, it's compromise that moves us along..."



Life's messy. Stay in your pajamas.
das #320303 06/07/07 12:43 PM
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To live is to suffer at some point. The alternative is death, I'd rather live and to the fullest I can.

What fulfillment in life has to be found by the individual. What makes one happy is not the same for another.


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All realtionships end in pain, because there is always the sadness of separation, even if it is due to death.
Death is the end to everything. It's not an alternative, HisBrandy - it's not like you have a choice - !!

The secret is to secure an inner joy for yourself so that whether you have a relationship or not, your happiness does not depend on the inclusion of Love from someone else.
To hang your hopes of some happiness on the presence of a significant other, is to set yourself up for a tumble, sooner or later. Whether self-inflicted, or brought about by 'Life' tripping you up.

People hate it when I talk in this way. I get argument, some of it hostile, but it's down to a natural human resistance to accepting that whatever happiness we want and achieve in our lives, it is transitory. And so, by the way, is the cruddy stuff.
you have to treat the two, and accept them in the same way.

Hevk, you know, I wasn't born with this thinking. I had to learn it and accept it, too, but It's true.
I'm not saying you should do likewise, but I would ask you to burn an irrefutable argument in it, if you can.

And trust me, it actually isn't pessimistic, gloomy or negative.


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In my spiritual beliefs, death is the end and the beginning. It ends things as I know it but begins another part of the journey of my spirit.

You live or you die..there is no in between. I choose to live to the fullest until my path heads elsewhere.









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Originally Posted By: His Brandy
To live is to suffer at some point. The alternative is death, I'd rather live and to the fullest I can.

What fulfillment in life has to be found by the individual. What makes one happy is not the same for another.



Bold text- this deserves a place in quotes book.

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Originally Posted By: His Brandy
In my spiritual beliefs, death is the end and the beginning. It ends things as I know it but begins another part of the journey of my spirit.

You live or you die..there is no in between. I choose to live to the fullest until my path heads elsewhere.


Ah, Gotcha!! Ruddy good point, excellently presented!!

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We were talking about relationships!

das #320538 06/08/07 09:09 AM
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yes, we were.... but you know, even in a discussion face to face, infront of someone, occasionally you end up talking about something different to the discussion you began with!

Originally Posted By: das
Most of the relationships end in pain. Why do we still desire to get into one? Should one not try to live life alone in happiness?


So what do you think of this then? What would you respond, this question asked of you?



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It's the fragility of life that makes it all the sweeter. The less we remain in denial about that, the more enriched our lives will become.
The Inuit, my brothers who live on Baffin Island in Canada, have one word - Uvatiarru- which means " in the distant past" AND " in the distant future". This is as we should see it. A voyage not linear, but also not to be repeated and therefore unique and delicate.


Life's messy. Stay in your pajamas.
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Not all relationships end in pain. Some continue in pain, some continue happily and do not end until the death of one partner. Living alone can be done happily and forever. No matter our circumstances, our lives are filled with whatever we wish and make for ourselves. The day to dayness of our lives is completely up to us, no matter who else they may involve. Living, whether alone, or with another person does not impact our intimate relationship, our part in the web of life we call nature, where, if we realize our connections and our oneness, we can live without pain.


Jan Goldfield

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Jan,

You are in favor of relationships?
Or being alone?

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Alexandra, I was hoping my second post would make more sense.


das #320683 06/08/07 06:54 PM
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[color:#333399]To love is to know vulnerability, fear, and pain.

BUT........

To love is a beautiful expression and affirmation of life.

As for me, I'd have rather loved than not.
[/color]

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Right, Kristen.

das #320987 06/10/07 01:34 PM
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Amen to that Kristen


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Yes. Amen.

das #321082 06/11/07 01:29 AM
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Sometimes the relationships give more pain.
We still seek one. Is it because of our genes?

das #321094 06/11/07 03:48 AM
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No, it's a natural mammalian herding instinct.
You have to split the emotional from the practical.
On one level, we are just like every other mammal on this planet. we herd, we find a mate, we reproduce, we have gestation periods, we have infidelity for biological reasons in that women look for the strongest, most reliable genetic composition of a male mate to give them a good offspring, and males play the field to find a suitable and impregnable female to do the same. Fidelity is possible, but not as common as you'd think or like. It's much the same in the animal kingdom, where 'mating for life' is more a phenomenon than the norm.

pretty basic and rudimentary, isn't it?

Then as a Human Race, we go and complicate things by bringing Morals, ethics, cultural attitudes, religious influences and conscience into it. We romanticise love, with novels, films and poets. We mistake lust for love, and attach so many extra paraphenalic customs, interpretations and definitions to every gesture.... wining, dining, roses, cards, love tokens and letters....
The entire human classical history is liberally littered with Romantic literature and words....
If you investigate this closely, you will find we're the only animal on the planet that does this.
Even 50 million chimps sat infront of a typewriter will never, between them, produce one line from shakespeare.
(Whoever worked this out had too much time on his hands.)

We form a dependency, and are convinced that our lives will be fuller, richer and more satisfying if we have a lifelong mate to exist with.

Unfortunately, as this forum will testify, this is rarely the case. But we do it anyway.

I have a partner. I love him to absolute bitty-bits.
But if the crapola were to hit the fan, I'd get over it, I certainly wouldn't hold a moritorium, wail and gnash my teeth and shed one single tear. And I certainly wouldn't actively go seeking another coupling.


Harsh?
Yes, quite.
Cold calculating and heartless?
No, not really.
Honest?
Yes. Quite definitely.

I mean, tell me I'm wrong.....


Last edited by Alexandra; 06/11/07 03:51 AM.
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I do not want to comment upon you and your partner.

What you have said earlier is true.
But Alexandra, our mind makes us different from the animal world.
Are you recommending that we begin behaving like animal world to get peace?
Am I correct in my understanding?

das #321103 06/11/07 05:06 AM
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Also, you said-
No, it's a natural mammalian herding instinct.
--------------------------------------------------------

I think that more than herding, it is the instinct to reproduce.

You can say about herding if somebody asks why we live in communities and not away in jungles separate from each other.

Making sense?

das #321113 06/11/07 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: das

But Alexandra, our mind makes us different from the animal world.
Are you recommending that we begin behaving like animal world to get peace?
Am I correct in my understanding?


We already behave like the animal world, we simply don't realise it, or are convinced that by being at the top of the food chain, and imagining ourselves to be (or assuming we are) 'more intelligent', we don't think about ourselves in these terms.

As for finding peace, we already know how to do that too, but we don't do that either.

It's called 'attachment, craving and clinging' and it's at the root of all unsatisfactoriness and suffering.

das #321114 06/11/07 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: das
Also, you said-
No, it's a natural mammalian herding instinct.
--------------------------------------------------------

I think that more than herding, it is the instinct to reproduce.

You can say about herding if somebody asks why we live in communities and not away in jungles separate from each other.

Making sense?

Yes, but herding is what provides safety, security and to an extent, paradoxically, anonymity. So there is a certain connection, and guarantee of meeting a mate, through herding.
That's what I meant.

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Originally Posted By: Alexandra
Originally Posted By: das

But Alexandra, our mind makes us different from the animal world.
Are you recommending that we begin behaving like animal world to get peace?
Am I correct in my understanding?


We already behave like the animal world, we simply don't realise it, or are convinced that by being at the top of the food chain, and imagining ourselves to be (or assuming we are) 'more intelligent', we don't think about ourselves in these terms.

As for finding peace, we already know how to do that too, but we don't do that either.

It's called 'attachment, craving and clinging' and it's at the root of all unsatisfactoriness and suffering.


There is a huge difference.
Animals do not think so they are at peace.
Do you want humans to stop thinking?

das #321127 06/11/07 07:29 AM
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Dogs are mammals. why do they not crave for herds?

das #321130 06/11/07 07:36 AM
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They do in the wild. Remember they are descended from wolves. The hierarchy of wolves is in fact extremely interesting......When a family owns a dog, the family becomes the wolf pack.


Don't get me started. I trained as a dog behavioural specialist, and I help families with problem dogs...only, guess what? 9 times out of 10, it's the family that has the problem, not the dog!

But that's off-topic.... smile

das #321131 06/11/07 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: das
Animals do not think so they are at peace.
Do you want humans to stop thinking?


What on earth makes you believe animas do not think?

This is a mistake. Animals most certainly DO think, and many are extremely intelligent. They can be trained in all sorts of ways to help humans, like alert dogs for the deaf and blind, or sniffer dogs for the armed forces and the police..,..for example. They do not function on instinct alone, you see...

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And before someone comes in and says so, I also know animals are capable of emotion. They are friendly, warm and happy when they are well-treated and looked after and respected. tehy return this treatment with unconditional love and affection, in a domestic environlment. Even in a zoo, where animals are kept in captivity in the most natural ways possible, if they are fed, well tended and cared for, they thrive....
My point is that the lives of animals are not as over-complicated as we as humans have made ours.
This higher intelligence level we insist we possess, has also been a disadvantage at times...It has not always counted in our favour.

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Dogs do seek packs outside of their domestic families, stray dogs are often in packs.

Here's an interesting picture of the dogs relationship to their human. My sister in law had a seizure (they think) a couple years ago and collapsed in her kennel. She has about 5 dogs and was fostering a couple puppies. Her kennel is quite extensive with seperate fenced areas and a large running area for them. Anyway, she collapsed and fell to the ground in the running area while running the dogs. When my brother got home, probably 20ish minutes after she collapsed, he found her pit bull lying by her head, protective. He found another dog jumping at her, as though to wake her up. He found the puppies running around her. And another dog was lying at her feet. The others were still kenneled. My brothers first instinct was to get the dogs off her and he kind of flipped out, but it was a stressful situation. In retrospect, he thinks the dogs were trying to protect her, watching over her, and wake her up.

So I know that animals can think, reason to a degree, and even have emotion. I am not even altogether convinced they don't have this thing we call a "soul".

However, they are still largely based on instinct and react to events with many prewired reactions. Humans don't usually do that, we have morals because of religion, and we have religion because of a need to have something higher than ourselves. Also, humans are different in terms of mates in one other very large aspect: the women are largely defenseless while carrying and then caring for a child. Without a mate to protect her, in many cases (ie ancient times) she would be lost. So from that point of view, it is in a womans best interests to find and mate with a partner who is not going to run off at the sight of another woman, and who will provide for her.

This is one of the issues with todays society: we have the concept of family still, but the dynamics of a family are much different than years ago. A woman can provide for herself and her children just as well as a man can. A woman can have children with or without a man around. So what, in terms of role, have we left the male? He isn't required to take care of the woman, he isn't required in the household, he isn't even required to raise the children. He is completely expendable except in the inital act of procreation. And we wonder why they can leave at the drop of a hat and never look back? What is there to keep them?

Dez

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" And we wonder why they can leave at the drop of a hat and never look back? What is there to keep them?"

Choice. Men and women alike choose to stay or to go.




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Let us not stray from what we are discussing. Dez has made a great post and Alexandra has spoken about emotions in animals. Yes, some animals are little evolved and lot of research is going on in that.

I could not understand what His Brandy said.

Now-

Are we supposed be like animals. Can we drop a relationship as casually as an animal does?

We can get away from pain only if we are very highly evolved. Not everyone can do that. It is also not a matter of decision- I will not feel pain about this and done.

No it does not happen. It sounds very good but practically it can not be done . It looks good to preach, but it can not be practise by the student.


I can answer many posts on this forum saying-

Decide and drop the pain. Get free now.
Will the poster be able to do that?

das #321183 06/11/07 11:08 AM
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yup.

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Alexandra,

I completely disagree with what you say.

Holly, Tami, Andidetal, babyquacker,please clarify -
Do you believe that any mental disorder can be cured in a moment by deciding to do that?
I am not talking about daily depression, but serious disorders.
Please , can you give your views?

das #321367 06/12/07 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: das
Alexandra,

I completely disagree with what you say.


I would be delighted if you could clarify please.... What do you disagree with and why ? smile

Originally Posted By: das
Holly, Tami, Andidetal, babyquacker,please clarify -
Do you believe that any mental disorder can be cured in a moment by deciding to do that?
I am not talking about daily depression, but serious disorders.
Please , can you give your views?


This was not part of your original question my friend, and you are moving the goal-posts again. If this is the basis of your disagreeing with me, then little wonder. You didn't mention this before, hence I failed to see the connection.
You never mentioned serious mental disorder in your previous question, and I don't know why you are diverting the topic away from the original thread topic of relationships.

What is it exactly you are seeking here?
What do you need in your life, from us?
What do you want from us?

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Alexandra,

This is my query-
------------------------------------------------------------
To my statement that-


I can answer many posts on this forum saying-

Decide and drop the pain. Get free now.

Will the poster be able to do that?
-------------------------------------------------

You answered yes.

Now I was referring to serious mental disorders when I referred to pain. sorry if I mislead you.

Which pain did you understand?

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Alexandra-

To your query-
What is it exactly you are seeking here?
What do you need in your life, from us?
What do you want from us?
-------------------------------

I want nothing from you.
I am here like all of you trying to get help and give help if possible.

das #321393 06/12/07 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: das
Alexandra,

This is my query-
To my statement that-

"I can answer many posts on this forum saying-
Decide and drop the pain. Get free now.
Will the poster be able to do that?"


You answered yes.

Now I was referring to serious mental disorders when I referred to pain. sorry if I mislead you.

Which pain did you understand?


I understood the pain of rejection, the pain of abandonment, the pain of solitude, and of having to detach one's self from a relationship...

Just to let you know though, that I frequent another forum and we have several people there who have serious mental health issues, (bi-polar, schizophrenia, seasonal periodic depression) but who have found much relief and improbement by the practises recommended on there by others.
One person manages to control the fluctuations in their moods that they have (with cooperation, support and assistance form their doctor) managed to reduce their medication by a significant amount.
so I think there is evidence that there is a great deal that can be done for such chronic mental states, apart from medication.

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I think that you make sense.

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Instead of focusing on the pain of a relationship, look at it as a path to understanding yourself and life better. Look at it as two people who came together and then, for one reason or another, decided that they were not meant to be, but that does not in any way negate or destroy what they had -- for however brief a time.

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Wow - I missed this one somehow!

My 2 cents: I think that sometimes pain in a relationship, or even in anything, gives us a greater appreciation for the good things that happen. Pain can also make us stronger.

If our lives were always filled with happy-happy days, then we will never be prepared for when something bad happens. It's kind of lie an immunization, I guess.

As to the question of whether to seek out relationships or remin alone; that totally depends on the individual. I have several friends that have decided to remain single, for one reason or another. They don't want a romantic relationship - and not because they have been hurt.

Some of us need to have others around. I for one gain strength from my husband and family.


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Originally Posted By: Kat Wilder
Instead of focusing on the pain of a relationship, look at it as a path to understanding yourself and life better. Look at it as two people who came together and then, for one reason or another, decided that they were not meant to be, but that does not in any way negate or destroy what they had -- for however brief a time.


But this separation can give lot of heartache.

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I was thinking of relationships like cigarette.
Relationships can give pain. Beware!

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Originally Posted By: das
Originally Posted By: Kat Wilder
Instead of focusing on the pain of a relationship, look at it as a path to understanding yourself and life better. Look at it as two people who came together and then, for one reason or another, decided that they were not meant to be, but that does not in any way negate or destroy what they had -- for however brief a time.


But this separation can give lot of heartache.


Only if you let it do so.

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Alexandra, heartache is the worst thing that can happen. Only some super natural beings can avoid that.

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I didn't say we can avoid it. of course you can't. I only said that things can give you heartache if you let them do so... what I mean by this, is that we have a tendency to prolong our own agony long after the event which caused the initial heartbreak has passed. people have a tendency to continue clinging to the emotion, when it would be so much better to just simply let it go.

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Wolf
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How do we let it go?

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Zebra
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you just refuse to give it mind-space. or as a friend put it, deny it the right to live rent-free in your head. When the thoughts come to mind, dismiss them and tell yourself you have better things to think about, because you're a happy person.
After a while, the thoughts give up.
It's only your Ego keeping you down.

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Wolf
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Let me try Alexandra. thanks.

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Zebra
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Yes, it takes effort. But it's very simple.

Simple does not mean easy, it just indicates that the mechanisms are extremely non-complcated. But letting go, such are our habits, is not an easy task.

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Wolf
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Agreed.

das #321974 06/14/07 08:56 AM
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Shark
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Das,

I counter your comment on dropping the pain and being free now with..

Why would I want to do that? I not only love the man I am married to but I like him as well. Why would I want to throw away my marriage, my best friend and all that we have built together?



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Wolf
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His Brandy , you are lucky.
What is the status of your home?
If I am not forgetting there was some worry about that.

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Shark
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We found a house that we are trying to buy but in the middle of making a purchase, my husband's job became unstable and he has a pay decrease. We are waiting to see if we will be able to continue with the purchase.

I will let you know when we have news. Again, thank you for your thoughts and kind words.

On a note of pain in relationships. The living situation we have and the concerns we carry have had a negative impact on our relationship. We keep trying to move past that and ahead though.


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Zebra
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His Brandy,
What do you see as a definition of "dropping... everything..."?
I think there may be an element of crossed wires here...! smile

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Shark
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Alexandra,

Based on the way the conversation has gone, I read it as Das is saying drop the relationship.

But perhaps I am wrong on that?


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Zebra
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Yes, I think possibly there may be a misunderstanding there, in addition to which i think the original "culprit" may have not been das, but - me.
It all began when I tried to illustarte that we as human beings function on two levels. the "basic" animal instinct, mammalian level, and the more familiar, emotive humanistic level.
he then ventured to ask me whether we should be like animals. Should we be able to just "drop the emotional aspect? He further suggested this was only possible if one had studied for a long time and one was led by a Guru. Could anyone do that?
To which I replied, "yup".

When I avered that one could 'drop it', I didn't mean the relationship as a whole.
I was referring to the emotional, painful aspect that can bind us and tie us down, deplete us and enfeeble our senses due to anguish and pain.
It is possible to 'drop it', and I can attest to the fact that you don't necessarily need a guru. I am able to move on very easily from situations of distress, and the only Guru I have had is the one in my Mind and Heart.
Plus several good Buddhist books and discussions with fellow Buddhists on another forum....! laugh


Then he got onto mental states, and the discussion diverted somewhat....

It all got a bit off-topic and heavy I guess!

das has now left the board, so he can no longer respond.


Hope that clarifies things....

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Shark
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That may well be what was meant.

Why has Das left?


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Zebra
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Sent u PM....XX

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Newbie
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Originally Posted By: Alexandra

The secret is to secure an inner joy for yourself so that whether you have a relationship or not, your happiness does not depend on the inclusion of Love from someone else.
To hang your hopes of some happiness on the presence of a significant other, is to set yourself up for a tumble, sooner or later. Whether self-inflicted, or brought about by 'Life' tripping you up.

This is the place I am trying to get to, but can't seem to reach. I feel somedays that relationships are just pointless and painful and as of lately I see no reason to have another love relationship...ever!

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Zebra
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Ask yourself whether the one relationship that you really need to cultivate, is healthy.

How much are you able to release the tension and love yourself, unconditionally?

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Newbie
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I know I cannot a healty relationship with someone else until I learn to love myself unconditonally. I have not learned that skill yet, I am trying.

Any advice?


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Zebra
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Oooooh, gracious!

Plenty, I guess, but I don't know that this is the right thread....! laugh

I normally live in the Buddhist forum, where perhaps the words I give may be more appropriate.
Let me very quickly add here that I would never presume to suggest an adherence or conversion to Buddhism is either necessary, or attempted here. Not a bit.
I would never insult your intelligence by trying to insinuate myself in that way.
I'm merely saying that I would be able to speak more freely and in an open and unhindered way about what I have discovered for myself, and communicate with you more suitably there.
before deciding on whether to visit the Buddhist forum for a more in-depth 'chat', have a look through the threads there.
Buddhists do not preach, proselytise or seek to convince or convert. It's not our bag, and is actually frowned upon within our 'community'. so please put aside any fears you may have of any attempt to 'bring you into OUR fold'. It's not going to happen.
if you'd like to continue this discussion, let me know. we'll chat there.

How's that?

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My mom is Buddhist, but I do not have much experience with it, but I am not closed off to it's teachings. I have posted in the Buddhist forum the same question.

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