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I dare anyone to tell me I'm overprotective!

http://www.wral.com/apnationalnews/9982709/detail.html
The county coroner says at least six people were killed in a shooting at a one-room Amish schoolhouse, where state police said earlier a gunman killed "a number" of people Monday in Pennsylvania's bucolic Lancaster County.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Schools_lockdown.html
Two schools were locked down Monday while police searched for a teenager who had been spotted on a high school campus with a gun, authorities said.


Meg
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Unfortunately, this kind of thing could happen anywhere--grocery stores, doctor's offices, insurance offices, post offices, churches, retirement homes, wherever.

I'd worry more about bullies, employs with criminal records, gangs, drugs, lack of appropriate supervision, open campuses, etc.

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Well of course it can happen elsewhere, but I'd be there with the kids when it happened. I'd be there to provide guidance and try to help. I'd be there to throw my body over theirs.

School is supposed to be the next safest place compared to home, but it's not. You put that many hormones and half-formed opinions and attitudes all in one place and it can't be good.


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I don't think we can point a finger and say "there--that happened because schools are dangerous." Nowhere is 100% safe, even home (domestic abuse, home invasions, drive bys, etc.). Whether homeschooling or otherwise, all we can do is teach our children to be responsible, be aware, to look out for themselves and others and to be self-reliant.

The reality is that there will be times I am not with my child, and as my child grows older he will demand greater independence from me. If I'm too protective, I do him a great disservice.

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Lynn,

6 year old girls were shot execution style--in the heart of Amish Country.

It's one thing to talk about being too protective of teenagers, but of young children?

Jan

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Yes, Jan, I'm not belittling the fact that it happened or the terrible outcome. But again its something that could happen anywhere--next door to your/my home, in Amish country, in cities, in rural areas. An armed someone determined to gain entry into a school, home or other place will find a way in. That's something a bit out of the direct control of a school.

Schools have control over their employees and students (theoretically) and can (if they wanted to) control bullying, gang activity on campus, drug access/use on campus, hiring of employees with criminal histories, etc. They can't control the loon on the street that has his/her own psychotic agenda to complete at all costs.

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HI Meg,

I am from North Las Vegas, grew up there and today when I heard that my heart sank. I have a niece and nephew who go to school in that area. All this makes me sick. The elementary school that I went to there now has a 10 foot chain link fence all around it, looks like a prison but it had to be done to protect the kids there. My heart goes out to the Amish and I hope that they can find some kind of peace, if that is possible.

Eva
Who now knows she made the right decision to homeschool

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Zebra
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....How many more innocent people have to die like this before America does something about its Gun Laws? The situation is abhorrent and execrable.

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[quote]I dare anyone to tell me I'm overprotective!

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Alexandra: Guns don't kill people; people kill people. If its not a gun, its a knife, a bomb, poison, whatever. Removing guns won't stop loonies from murdering people.

What we have to pay attention to is that crime can happen anywhere at any time; and no matter what we do, no place is 100 percent safe. Take care and necessary precautions, teach your children to do the same, and live life as best you can.

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Chipmunk
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Quote:
I don't think we can point a finger and say "there--that happened because schools are dangerous." Nowhere is 100% safe, even home (domestic abuse, home invasions, drive bys, etc.). Whether homeschooling or otherwise, all we can do is teach our children to be responsible, be aware, to look out for themselves and others and to be self-reliant.

Nowhere is 100% safe, you're right, I'm not arguing that at all. I tend to think schools ARE more dangerous than your local convenience store for several reasons...shootings are only one of those reasons. In a school you have 2000 kids and what, maybe 60 adults,all spread about and not able to effectively monitor most of those kids. That's just asking for trouble.





The reality is that there will be times I am not with my child, and as my child grows older he will demand greater independence from me. If I'm too protective, I do him a great disservice.


Meg
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"It's a tribute to teachers and exceptional staff that so many children do learn a variety of subjects adequately at school. I think most parents do homeschool their children, after school. It's all that other stuff that goes on during the school day that gets in the way of most children."

yes, but it's sad the children have to stop at adequate.


Meg
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"Schools are dangerous places, I agree. But, I'll reiterate. Schools have control over their employees and students (theoretically) and can (if they wanted to) control bullying, gang activity on campus, drug access/use on campus, hiring of employees with criminal histories, etc. "

Theoretically, but in real life, they just can't. School will never be what it should be or needs to be for every child. School wasn't designed to be that anyhow. School was designed to make good workers, identical cogs. We can say the environment is changing, but it's really not.

Meg

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Again, not to belittle the horrific nature of this crime, but to shift the focus back to a more reality based state--
U.S. Department of Justice stats also indicate that school related deaths of students/faculty/staff continue to be rare--despite the media's attempt to indicate this is a "trend."

You are in more danger of dying walking down a city street.

Yes, schools are still dangerous.

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Quote:
....How many more innocent people have to die like this before America does something about its Gun Laws? The situation is abhorrent and execrable.


I am not pro-gun, that needs to be said.

Ok, that said...I live in a city where, honest to pete, it is written into city law that all heads of household MUST own a gun. It was a reaction to anti-gun laws of the 1980s. No one has ever been prosecuted for not owning a gun, but the law is there.

ya know what...the crime rate went down 80% after the law and the city continues to have the lowest crime rate in the state and one of the lowest in the country.

Gun laws aren't the answer, I wish they were. The movie "Bowling for Columbine" explains it better than I could. it's worth a view.

Meg


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Seen it. That's why the likes of Charleton Heston make me wish you'd ban the damned things....

Seen 'Lord of War' With Nic Cage....? Scary.

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The World Almanac cites there are 192 countries (of course, with civil wars, etc., the number changes). The UK ranks #46 on the list (as of 2005) for the number of murders--so murder goes on despite gun control.

Yes, the U.S. ranks #24; but if you take a look at the USDOJ stats, only slightly more than half of U.S. violent crimes in 2005 were conducted with a weapon (undefined type).

So taking away the gun isn't going to stop the violence... change it maybe... stop it, no.

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I don't have stats in front of me, but did you look at violence in general or murder stats?

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The rankings by country cited above are strictly for murder. (See NationMaster.Com for Murders (per capit) by Country.

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I apologize, Meg, if I'm hogging your forum today; but, I really feel that its important we distinguish between reality and media hype on this topic.

MSNBC today cited some very specific statistics related to homicides in schools (of course, the info was buried at the END of the article).

In today's article, "10 Myths About School Shootings" Bill Dedman wrote "Even including the more common violence that is gang-related or dispute-related, only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S." (See article, page 2, at the very end.)

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Quote:
only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S." (See article, page 2, at the very end.)


"only".....ONLY??!! That's 12 to 20 too many, don't you think - ??

I systematically, automatically, totally reject ANY argument that justifies the ownership - by anyone, 'Big'or 'small'- of a weapon designed purely and simply to purposely inflict harm on another being.

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Alexandra: Any murder any where is one too many.

The issue was raised that schools are MORE dangerous than anywhere else. Yes, schools are dangerous places. The data was presented to illustrate that the incidence of this type of danger is small.

You're still more likely to be murdered on a city street than in a school.

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Quote:
Quote:
only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S." (See article, page 2, at the very end.)


"only".....ONLY??!! That's 12 to 20 too many, don't you think - ??

I systematically, automatically, totally reject ANY argument that justifies the ownership - by anyone, 'Big'or 'small'- of a weapon designed purely and simply to purposely inflict harm on another being.


[color:"blue"] [/color] Anything can be used as a weapon to harm another being, pure and simple. If you don't want one in your home, then don't have one. I personally choose not to have guns in my home, however I will be going to the shooting range to learn how to correctly disarm, and correctly fire one, should I ever have to. In a vaccuum, it is easy to say that we should never harm any living thing, however reality is that it is better to be prepared, and know what to do should you ever be in such a position. Banning the ownership of any weapon designed purely and simply to purposely inflict harm on another being does nothing but insure than only criminals will have access to these weapons.

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I think if it is done PROPERLY, there is nothing wrong with a gun. Yes we have them in our house but I do not touch them. As a matter of fact we will be getting me a BB gun in case I have to scare off a badger or whatever (our house is next to BLM land. I know one solution that I heard from a comedian, I think it was Chris Rock and if I'm wrong please correct me, he said one fast easy solution is to make the bullets very expensive. So one day while we were in Walmart I did a price check....for $2.00 you could do alot of damage. Everyone in my family knows how to handle a gun but yet we do not hunt. It was for home protection and sport only (target practice no shooting of even wild animals unless very necessary) I was also taught by my Dad that if you are going to shoot it, you will eat it, period so that really put a huge stop on just shooting away at birds or rabbits unless of course we wanted to eat it. My little sister is a sharpshooter, I am not which is why we have a shotgun for me. I don't want to sound like a broken record but alot of gun safety and life safety use to come from home but obviously it isn't anymore.

Eva

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My big thing is that the schools AREN'T safe. Sure "only 12 or 20" or whatever ppl died in them so far this year, but that isn't all of the safety jeopardy (how many ppl were shot in walmart this year? I'd say less than 10 in however many million shoppers they've had). It goes so far beyond that, it is not a safe environment emotionally or physically for far more children than anyone ever realizes.

Media hype - this is what bugs me when people say today's world is so much worse than the world years before. No it's not, we just have this monster media system now that TELLS us it's worse. It's not! and if one more person tells me that it's worse because of more teen pregnancies I think I'll scream.

Lynn - dont worry about hogging the forum at all, this is interesting and getting people talking!

Meg


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Out of generic curiousity--and I had a lot of time on my hands--I went to askjeeves.com and typed in Wal-Mart Shooting 2006. There were 140 news entries (Georgia, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, North Carolina, etc.)--and the year's not over yet.

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140 news entries doesn't mean 140 people were killed.

Let's say 140 were...figure that against the number of people who shop at wal-mart in a given year, millions. The ratio will probably be lower than school shootings.

I did the same thing you did on google and came up with "7,810 for school shootings." and the year's not over year...the school year has many, many months to go.

Meg


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My last post didn't have anything in it about numbers of people shot. Offhand, though, add up the separate incidents in the various states and its more than 10. So by the standard here, that would make Wal-Mart a place to stay away from (bit of a stretch, isn't it).

You're still much more likely to die on the street--especially if you're travelling in a motor vehicle and are between the ages of 1 and 34, or so say the mortality tables.

I'm not, by any means, arguing FOR schools. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

I still think those with children IN schools should worry about those emotional/physical dangers that can be controlled for (and yes, schools can control their internal environment, they just have to work very hard at it and usually opt not to).

Still can't do much about the random wacko,though.

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Quote:
So by the standard here, that would make Wal-Mart a place to stay away from (bit of a stretch, isn't it).


Here Walmarts are rather dangerous places. There has been several attacks a kidnapping or 5, and the seasonal fight over parking spaces (I'm not kidding the police were called in last year!)

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I can't speak for all schools but I can speak for the one I just pulled my son out of, it is not safe. Not because they fight, that was one of my huge reasons for pulling him out but also ANYONE can walk on that school ground and get a child. The first time I went to pick him up, I went to the office because at his last school that is what you HAD to do if you were going to step foot on the school grounds, not here. That is not safe enough for me period. This is an elementary school with little kids, He missed his bus and they let him stand out front waiting...again not safe enough for me.

I guess I have a high standard that MUST be met for any child of mine to attend their school and my standard was not being met. Yes it was met at the last school he attended but not here.

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I believe that most parents who homeschool are more concerned about emotional damage and physical danger short of school shootings, as well as lack of educational opportunities and unwanted influences in social or moral development.

Many people in my family believe that if guns laws are enacted, only criminals will have guns - meaning people who were criminals before the laws were passed - and they would not be able to protect themselves without handguns. But most use guns for hunting, or target practice.

What bothers me about the gun laws that expired is that they protected us from our neighbors having easy access to assault weapons and other guns that make life more dangerous for police officers and the general public.

I think when we talk about the shortcomings of public schools, we forget to mention what a tremendous resource they have been and still are for so many children and families.

In addition to educational opportunities, they provide a place for children to be while their parents earn a living. We don't want to disregard those educational opportunities,
especially for girls, children with disabilities, and those whose parents can't teach them at home. It is not that long ago in history when education was for the elite, and of course in some parts of the world even home education has had to be done in secret.

I feel that the Amish folks have done more than anyone to protect their children and also to build a community over generations where their children should be safe. It's just a terrible thing all around.

Maybe good people should all work on getting along together, remembering everything that makes us want the world to be a better place, in memory of these innocent lives that were taken.

Pam W
SE of Seattle


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Quote:
I can't speak for all schools but I can speak for the one I just pulled my son out of, it is not safe. Not because they fight, that was one of my huge reasons for pulling him out but also ANYONE can walk on that school ground and get a child. The first time I went to pick him up, I went to the office because at his last school that is what you HAD to do if you were going to step foot on the school grounds, not here. That is not safe enough for me period. This is an elementary school with little kids, He missed his bus and they let him stand out front waiting...again not safe enough for me.


CQ - These are internal issues over which a school CAN and SHOULD have control; but they've opted not to. Their deliberate lack of care made them a danger. And in my opinion, that's pathetic as these issues CAN be managed effectively.

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Well, i firmly stick to my viewpoint that public schools are NOT safe. Maybe it's where I live, I don't know...but definately NOT safe emotionally, physcially or academically.


Meg
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Here's an interesting article, these always pop up after a shooting or some act of violence at a school.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=539611

It's been a horrible couple of weeks for public schools, with fatal shootings in Pennsylvania, Colorado, and Wisconsin. We've also heard stories of teachers sexually abusing their students. It's all got parents questioning the safety of public schools, and taking a closer look at homeschooling.


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So many schools only do a cursory check into a teacher's background; or listen to students when they make initial reports of predation. These ARE things schools and districts can do; they just opt not to deal with these internal issues until they hit boiling point.

The wacko's with guns, bombs, etc., even on total lock down you'd be hard pressed to "deal" with these effectively.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061003/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_school_violence_7

Tue Oct 3, 12:27 PM ET



RENO, Nev. - The Bush administration, alarmed by recent attacks at public schools across the country, is bringing education and law enforcement experts together for a conference on coming to grips with the problem.

ADVERTISEMENT

The goal would be to discuss the nature of the problem and federal action that can help communities prevent violence and deal with its aftermath, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino told reporters as President Bush made a campaign tour here Monday.

Three schools have been hit by deadly attacks in the past week. A gunman killed himself and five girls Monday at a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania; on Friday a 15-year-old Wisconsin student shot and killed his principal; and last Wednesday a man took six girls hostage in Colorado, sexually assaulting them before fatally shooting one girl and killing himself.

"The president is deeply saddened and troubled by the recent school violence and shootings that have taken place in different communities across America," Perino said. "It breaks America's collective heart when innocent children who are at school to learn are violently taken hostage and cut down in their own schools."

Perino said the conference was still in the planning stages, so a specific date, location and other details were not ready to be announced. It was not clear whether President Bush would attend.

Education Secretary Margaret Spellings, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Bush's domestic policy adviser, Karl Zinsmeister, met Monday at the White House to discuss the conference. They met while the president was on a cross-country flight to begin a three-day fundraising trip for Republican candidates in the midterm election.

Perino said participants on the education side would include groups like the National Parent Teacher Association, school principals and teachers' unions. The Federal Bureau of Investigations would be among those representing law enforcement, she said.

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So, I have to ask why in the world it has taken THIS long for someone to take a hard look at this.

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"Why in the world it has taken THIS long for someone to take a hard look at this."

1. Money, money, money...

2. Lack of significant pressure from constituents (the pots finally boiling over)

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Of course, if ALL they look at is how to handle shootings on campus, we're still very much in trouble safety wise.

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here's another one from my old hood (well, close to there anyhow!)

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/2006/10/report_of_armed.html


Meg
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Quote:
So many schools only do a cursory check into a teacher's background; or listen to students when they make initial reports of predation. These ARE things schools and districts can do; they just opt not to deal with these internal issues until they hit boiling point.

The wacko's with guns, bombs, etc., even on total lock down you'd be hard pressed to "deal" with these effectively.


background checks aren't even all that efficient. Tons of crimnals have yet to be caught, some had records expunged, some are minors sitting next to your child in the classroom, some background checks aren't national or international...the list goes on.


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Running 10 or 20 year background checks through national agencies is better than many districts are doing currently. I can pay my local PD $15 and have a check done--but they only do 7 years and its only local/state. If you kick out a few more $$ in fees, you can have a fairly decent check done. The feds do it and so can others... if they wanted to.

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