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Gecko
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Great quotes from Gandhi, Alexandra. Hadn�t heard those but excellent, thanks for sharing.

And thanks for the quotes, Lynn. Some powerful stuff, and proof that even Christian text does say there are many paths and many wise (wo)men from all ages. Why is that ignored?

Bella, I think it is admirable you know the Bible so well and hold so much belief in your heart. I�m more of the �text of no text� school. I love and adore words. But I also know that �everything transitory is but a reference� (Goethe). That is to say, there are eternals which cannot be expressed in language because their magnificence exceeds the power of words to convey.

Come to me as a child, He said. Children can�t read. Children don�t need to point to a phrase in a man-written book, which is subject to mistake, to justify their love.

My degree is in English, not history. But I do know the early Catholic church did not use Pagan goat feet and horns to diminish Satan�s power. It was an attempt to demonize another faith.

Back then, men and women worshipped male and female Gods. The male God was Kernunnos or Pan. The Catholic popes wanted to vilify Pan. Make him evil. If you danced to Pan, you were dancing to Satan. Demonizing another faith. Now in order to choose �good,� you had to stop your prior faith and take on the official new one. It�s the politics of people control. God toppling, spin doctoring. It is somewhat like how the Nazis took a beautiful symbol of the four winds of the Natives, changed it slightly, and now that symbol is a hated image in our world.

What is so wrong with accepting the fact that God has many faces? Politicians don�t like it because it makes the masses hard to control. And the indoctrination has gone so far down the line from pope to bishop to follower that people actually believe God has only one face. The official face, official name, official party line.

I really wish all the religions of the world would ease up on this �our God alone is the one� insistence. It was this belief that caused Spaniards to find all Aztecs were pagan and death be to them who would not convert. It is behind the crusades against Islam, which still haven�t stopped. And both sides are to blame.

Who knows the truth? Can you really believe any person on earth holds the truth? If so, then you are in fact following men, not God. To me, any book is Baal. Buddha knew this. Buddha knew if he wrote a book, it would be used to people control, bash folks over the head with. He acquiesced, but made sure the words he wrote could not be used against other humans.

I paraphrase Dostoevsky � �Hell or not is bargaining, not faith.� In The Brothers Karamazov, he told his brother priest that Catholics are afraid to relax their stance, accepting that all Gods can equally be valid, out of fear. And I think the essence of God is love, not fear.

�Love is the only rational act,� said Levine. An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being does not require your fear, or for you to instill it in others. Only a return of the love he put in our own hearts.

And love has no face.


Darling Poor
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Quote:
But if Mankind was given Free Will, the power of choice and discernment, then... isn't it an easy way of copping out of the responsibility of ones' actions to say, both "I was Guided by God" or "I was tempted by the Devil"... ?
Doesn't this offer an explanation for a decision which was based entirely on Human Voluntary thought process?


Yes, I do believe to use either as a total answer is a "copout". My 14 yr old is constantly trying to tell me that Satan "tempted" him to do something when I catch him in a lie or doing something wrong. I will then point out that it may have been Satan tempting him (or using someone else to) but it was his choice whether to fall into that temptation or not!

Likewise God guides us in the way we should go - the best way for us, but it is our choice whether or not to follow it. He can use us to His benefit either way, but it is to our benefit if we follow His way.

It's kind of like a ramped up Jiminy Cricket! Pinocchio didn't do such a good job of listening to him either. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Thanks Darling, it was tickling in the back of my head somewhere what the origin of the Satan - pan thing was!

Ok, I forgot the original - but the Catholic drawings of Pan/Satan were not the "cute" ones. They depicted a powerful being that was quite frightening. I'm talking a little later down the line that Satan was "reduced" by some well-meaning, but misguided Christians hoping to show that Satan is inferior to God by making him look silly - which he is anything but.

And I have often wondered if some of the lesser known religions that have a singular god by a different name may be worshipping our Lord. But any religion that worships more than one god (or goddess) cannot fall into that category, because He says "I am the Lord your God" - singular. He's not sharing that post with anyone.

But you are right when you said that God is about love. Everything He does is with love, it's us people that screw it up - even when we have good intentions sometimes. That's where dave and i kept getting into it. He wanted to preach the sin/Hell aspect, I'd rather talk about the love/hope aspect. Because that IS what God is about - especially since He gave us Jesus.

Personally, I think Hell is more for us Christians to worry about, because it is our responsibility to share the Word with others, and if we do not live up to our responsibility, then we have to answer for the soul that does not join us in Heaven. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Gecko
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You're welcome, Bella. You are a credit to Christians everywhere to focus on the love aspect. In the end, that's what it's all about.


Darling Poor
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Quote:
But if Mankind was given Free Will, the power of choice and discernment, then... isn't it an easy way of copping out of the responsibility of ones' actions to say, both "I was Guided by God" or "I was tempted by the Devil"... ?
Doesn't this offer an explanation for a decision which was based entirely on Human Voluntary thought process?


I wanted to address this myself...

Lucifer was God's right hand angel. he was the most beautiful and most honored among the angels. God loved him the most. He was the only angel God gave free will. Then God decided to create people. he also decided to give them free will. The one thing he had given Lucifer that He hadn't given to the other angels.

Lucifer was mad. He was indignant. He was out of his mind jealous when God anounced that he loved poeple more than the angels and that the angels were to minister to the people. Lucifer could feel these emotions because he could choose to feel them. His sin is pride and it was the first sin. Sin is disobediance to God. When Lucifer decided to follow his feelings, he fell into disobediance.

Satan's greatest weapon is to make us think we are intelligent, artiulate, and almost as all knowing as God. We've got it figured out! He laughs when we question God's Word. he rolls on the floor wiht tears streaming in hysterical laughter when we decide we know more than God. And he wins when we decide we don't need God. Picture him standing right next to you whispering in your ear convincing you that these are only your thoughts and he had nothing to do with it. In fact he's not even sure that he even really exists...

The very basis of your arguement (on this subject) is buried in Satans logic.

The beauty of small children is that they trust us. period. no questions asked. They love us we love them and they trust us. They belive what we tell them and they obey or face consequences. It's the same for us with God. either we trust that because he loves us unconditionally even when we stink to high heaven with our sins and our pride and super intelligence, or we suffer the consequences. We can carry the worlds yoke or we can trade it in for His. we can be responsible for every [censored] thing here on this miserable planet ( violence, pedofilia, rape, murder, pornography, theft, robbery, road rage etc) or we can give the [censored] where it belongs, right in the lap of Satan.

Every sin is rooted in pride. Even Buddah thought this too I think, right, what comes around goes around? karma? You get what you give...?

It's the same, in a way. If you give up your hold over your own life and letting your pride die on the cross with Christ, giving your life over to the Lord, then what you get back is blessing ten fold. Just like Job. Refusing to curse God in the middle of his disaster, God restored him ten fold.

Fruit of the Spirit : Joy Peace Happiness Love acceptance (for yourself and others) some little known fruits - patience, respect, admiration, long lasting friendships and reconciled relationships... plus the knowledge that no matter what is going on in your life you can handle it because God will never give us more than we can handle.

And of course, eternal life with God instead of eternal life without Him... stay with somone who loves you or with someone who despises you... your choice.

PS I did a book review on a wonderful book called "God's Assasins" In this book is the best description of Satan's feelings toward us... here is the link to the review...

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35691.asp

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 04/27/06 11:51 PM.

JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Quote:


Every sin is rooted in pride. Even Buddah thought this too I think, right, what comes around goes around? karma? You get what you give...?



No, because the Buddha did not subscribe to the idea of Sin....
He taught that whatever is thought, said or done, is what it is, it is only our perception which labels it so....
For example, even in America, some states have a much lower age of consent than others... those with higher ages of consent think a low age of consent is immoral and unacceptable...But those with a low age of consent think the opposite. Nobody can therefore say what is right and what is wrong. It's just what the person thinks of "it", that makes "it" sinful or otherwise.....

As shakespeare so eloquently put it (and just where did HE pick this up?)

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

- Epicurus (341 - 270 BC)

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I am willing and able to walk around with my 3 yr old and keep him from making and doing all sorts of things that will keep him from getting hurt. However, he will never learn not to do these things unless he makes the mistakes and gets hurt from time to time (like jumping on his bed when I've told him "no" - he falls off and bumps his elbow). That mistake experience is a much better teacher than me protecting him from everything in the world.

God is much the same way. He could protect us from everything - but then we would never grow. We would never build character, we would never be able to empathize with someone in need.

Free will - man chose sin in the beginning, and we have the choice everyday as to whether to take it or leave it. Just becasue it's there doesn't mean we have to be part of it.


Michelle Taylor
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Oh, I buy the bit about Choice. I buy the bit about Free Will. I buy the bit about consequences, of doing good and not doing good...

I just cannot buy the "God" bit.

Any creator who can "answer prayers" and heal little Tommy of a terrible illness, but can then permit a disaster like the tsunami or Hurricane Katrina to kill countless thousands is what I cannot swallow.

I'm sorry.
I think I should leave it there.
I am straying into areas I promised i would try to avoid...
If anyone would like to continue this theological discussion, in this vein, I have created a new thread in the Buddhist forum...

("Discussion on A supreme Being, Higher Power, God")

Last edited by Alexandra; 04/28/06 12:02 PM.
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