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Zebra
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Zebra
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Thank you for coming back to me Jim....
This is a good, long list of public, distinguished, intelligent, renowned and rightly respected and respectable people, and more wings to them for holding fast to their faith...
I would venture to suggest, however, that if you were able to ask all of them separately, how they interpret the Story of the Creation, you would get many varied and possibly conflicting replies...
But I say again - this does not matter. Not a jot.
To my mind, the important thing is how a person practises their faith, and how they adhere to the rules and guidelines therein.... And there are non-conformists, middle-of-the-roaders and extremists, in every creed and faith, adhering to various doctrines, and all following their faiths as best they know how....

As a famous sage once said:
"It little matters whether Heaven exists or not - the important is to live your life as if it did...."

The important thing, at the end of the day, is not what you believe, but how you walk the talk....how you reflect and embody the sanctity of your faith.

Last edited by Alexandra; 04/25/06 03:53 PM.
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Jellyfish
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Jellyfish
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Jim,

'Does this mean there are literally millions of stages of evolution, continually in motion?'

Yes. But it's very, very slow!

best wishes - Jane <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Today is good <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Zebra
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Evolution is an ongoing situation...Nothing has stopped, but when you look at how long things have taken up to now, this is why it's so slow, and why it's still going on amongst us...
they have now discovered that chimps alive today, have better motor skills than chimps studied forty or fifty years ago... chimps today are practised in the use of basic tools to break nuts, and dig insects out of holes...things which a lifetilme ago, nobody observed them performing....

there is a wasp in the South American rainforest the behaviour of which, has changed in the last hundred years or so, to adapt to its' changing surroundings... when once it chose a unique host ( a beetle) for its larvae, it has been noted by scientists that this particular beetle is in decline...The wasp has also noticed this... and has found a different species entirely (a spider) in which to lay its egg.....
There is a bird in South America whose plumage has gradually changed colour because its habitat (due to human agriculture) has altered....

This is evolution in progress....
Some animals have stayed virtually the same (if it ain't broke, why fix it...?) whereas others have changed over the eons to follow and adapt, and to avoid extinction...
But "new" species are being discovered all the time....Whilst many are also being eradicated, due largely to human influence and interference (voluntary or otherwise....)
Life does not stop here....

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J
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J
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Here again, the fact of it being very, very slow, should present that much more opportunity to see the huge number of transitions taking place. Instead, the species are clearly distinguishable.
It could be my question is just hard to frame, let me try again; "If evolution happened ONCE, the past pre-species should not exist but if it continually perpetuates, we should be seeing half-man/half-apes(bigfoot perhaps), three quarters man/one quarter apes etc.............?" (Use the same question for EVERY species out there.)
I'm not being the least bit funny, this is a totally and completely logical question that cannot be answered by a false theory, no matter who attempts to do so, or how lengthy a dissertation they may undertake in attempt to do so.

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Gecko
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JimLow,

Your faith involving experience argument really got me thinking. While I tend to agree with you, I did have early faith based on no experience, and that faith got stronger based on things that happened to me. I do believe the God of the Bible of which you speak asks for faith based on no experience, however. And it's possible to happen, since I was raised an atheist.

As for evolution - it is not incompatible with religion. Even the Buddhist scholars are coming to say this, as are scientists. It doesn't interfere for me.

I think once man settles on other planets, and evolves and changes, we'll see that it does occur, and that it only proves the magnificence of God that he can create with such a flexible hand.

Lastly, your list of intellectual believers is nice, but it's a DWM list. What is that? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" /> A predominantly (if not totally) dead white male list. Most college graduate ladies like myself use this acronym to reflect that history books and lectures are filled with these people and markably exclude the experiences of women, blacks, natives, etc. To persuade others, include the experiences of all world cultures and both sexes.


Darling Poor
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Gecko
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Gecko
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I'm wondering if Jim realizes (or even believes) the planet is 4-6 billion years old?

Early man is 1 million years old.

We've only had the written word for the past 10,000 years.

Now we have the Internet.

If that's not progress and development of the human brain(from 10,000 years ago pressing cuneiforms into soft rock to programming source code that can create video games and the Internet) evolving and changing, then I don't know what is. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Presumably, if we're done evolving, we would have had the Internet 10,000 years ago, and at the time Pontius Pilate wiped his hands. So where's the video?


Darling Poor
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Gecko
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Whilst I hate to divert from my prior two posts, I must post once more.

Quote:
Why if man came from apes, are the apes still here? Why so many species of apes and monkeys still here


There are not many ape species left. Only 5.

The chimp, bonobo, gorilla, orangutang, and human.

Monkeys are different than apes, and a different species.

Neanderthal man was wiped out by its more brutal relative, homo sapiens sapiens. Same goes for homo erectus afarensis (Lucy) and the others. Do you believe their fossil existence is a vast conspiracy?

Quote:
then why do all of these pre-species still exist


Vast numbers of pre-species do not exist. 4 million years ago, Equus arrived. It split into two groups, some of which developed into the zebra. The other group changed into the modern pony, and then the horse.

However, 6 million years ago, there was the mesohippus and eohippus and other early horse-like creatures who have nearly all the hallmark of modern horses except their size and the fact they still walked on separate toes and the hoof hadn't formed yet. Over time, the one-toed hoof developed due to it making for a faster horse who did not get caught and die, and those animals survived to breed.


Darling Poor
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The "true experience" I mentioned isn't referring to an "experience" as being what brought a person faith, I'm saying the experience itself was real to the person (true not imagined), when the faith did come. They didn't need outside confirmation of faith experienced in the heart. Faith is a spritual thing and faith in God does come from "hearing his word". Once the faith is experienced, that is when I'm saying is becomes a true experience.
There becomes a problem with semantics (meanings of words) when everything is scrutinized to death. To be honest with you, debates like this, where something wrong is found in every tiny thing that someone else says, reaches a point to where everything begins to lose meaning.
I call it hyper-philosophy, for example: "that depends on what the meaning of the word "is", is.
These type discussions in my opinion, are not for the purpose of finding truth (hyper-philosophy "but what is truth?"), they are simply designed to make truth look like an unattainable. This way we can all arrive at our own truths.
I could choose my own truth if I wanted to but I personally have chosen to believe in the Bible as God's Word and truth for mankind. Everyone has a choice, I respect yours.

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Zebra
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Quote:
As for evolution - it is not incompatible with religion. Even the Buddhist scholars are coming to say this, as are scientists. It doesn't interfere for me.


Buddhism has never disputed evolution.. in fact, Buddhism is known as the most Scientific of Religions (even though some refer to it more as a philosophy....) and much of what can be found in Buddhist teaching, is reflected in Scientific terms...
To give but a couple of examples....

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

= Karma/Vitthaka

Energy is a force which can neither be created nor destroyed...Only channelled and transformed".

This supports and bears out question of re-birth (notice I do NOT say reincarnation) ....and rebirth, by the way, was considered entirely normal and viable by Christians, until around the 11th Century when it was realised that unless Church Authorities were able to control the masses and convince their largely poor, ignorant and illiterate flock, that divine retribution and purgatory and Hell were real punishments meted out by God for not following his laws, most people were sublimely content in the knowledge of returning to try again...This is the point where "the wrath of God" came in....

Quote:
Lastly, your list of intellectual believers is nice, but it's a DWM list. What is that? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" /> A predominantly (if not totally) dead white male list. Most college graduate ladies like myself use this acronym to reflect that history books and lectures are filled with these people and markably exclude the experiences of women, blacks, natives, etc. To persuade others, include the experiences of all world cultures and both sexes.


I often wonder what race or what colour Adam and Eve were... and why were they adult when God made them? And if he did create others, why are they not mentioned...? and if they in turn didn't eat from The Tree of Knowledge, were they still punished as Adam and Eve were?

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I believe the planet could be eons of ages old so yes, Jim does realize this.
I believe the Bible reveals a pre-historic time period but I also believe Adam's dispensation goes back only 6,000 to 7,000 years. The pre-historic time still did not involve evolution.
Let me try this one more time because I can't keep repeating, for one thing my question is not being understood (maybe my fault). I'm not upset, just wondering how much plainer I can state it. I'm not offended but I'm going as far as I can and still not getting the point across.
How, can an ape jump from the ape species, to man? Again, there are apes, there is man (right!). Over time, if one is evolving into another, with the pre-species also perpetuating, you are not going to have only two or three variations of horses, man or anything else. The slightest change in a species is proposed by evolution to take millions of years! (follow me so far?) Where are all the in-between species that took the millions upon million of years to develop when both ends of the spectrum are here and in full sight???
Honest to goodness it is a legitimate question but it has to be addressed DIRECTLY. By taking a side thought and explaining other areas that evolution believes and bringing up the earth's age, does not directly answer this question.
I'm not coming from frustration, honestly! (I already know the answer) What I am doing is trying to be passionately specific in trying to get understanding across on this question and the fact that is has never been answered.
"Missing link" is an incredible understatement, the whole chain is missing. The pre-species of men have repeatedly been proven to be teeth of extinct pigs or derived from fragments etc... The proof has never been there but also still does not answer the above framed question of evolution in the present(right now)!
I'll end on this particular subject with this post but did appreciate the correspondence. I respect everyone on here and their sincere search for answers.

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