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Did adam and eves kids have sex with each other? #242012 04/10/06 12:58 AM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each other? #242013 04/10/06 04:55 AM
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If you will notice the people described in the Bible lived a long time. As time went by they lived shorter and shorter lives. That is because they got further and further away from their genetic perfection in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve's children could marry each other and have children because they were still very close to genetic perfection. As mankind's sin increased and he got further from God and genetic perfection, God gave them commandments to not marry within families.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242014 04/10/06 07:19 AM
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Freespirit, it has been widely accepted by many leading theolgians and even some of the most prominent church leaders, that the Old Testament is an eclectic mix of a hefty dose of fantasy (used as a means of teaching and illustration) and a small trickle of significant history (many of the events that took place in the Bible have ocurred - just not quite as the Bible describes them...)

For example, they've worked out the great flood theory, and in fact such a flood did occur. It was catastrophic. But of course, it didn't cover the whole earth.... It probably did to them, at the time though, because a lot of people were of the opinion that the earth was flat.....
The plagues that descended upon Egypt because the Pharaoh would not release the Israelites, also occured... But not as described... and certainly not for that reason! They took place over hundreds of years and were caused by climate anomalies... even today there are 'plagues of locusts' and weird stories of it raining fish, or frogs in odd places... Due to typhoons and hurricanes, you know?

Remember that whosoever wrote the Bible did not have access to the enormous scientific measures available today....Research in Science, Geology and astronomy have done much to decipher, clear up and explain an awful lot of the apparent mysteries in both the Old and the New Testament.

The Creation story itself is a pure fantasy. Designed to instruct people on the origin of the world and the species. Putting it in the hands of a God, because at that time, there was no other theory. Remember the Egyptians did the same, with Osiris and Isis, and other cultures and belief systems had their own theories and ways of working this out.
Take it with a pinch of salt.
Some people will excuse anything, or find a reason for anything, when they need to. It usually boils down to 'God's Will' which is a handy way of saying 'I don't know, I haven't worked that one out yet, and I'm not sure I want to.'

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242015 04/10/06 06:14 PM
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The Bible is the inerrant Word of God. There are no mistakes or fantasies. You say that to discredit a God that will someday judge you. You want there to be fantasies so you can more easily dismiss the moral teachings of God's Word. The stories are real. They occurred and for exactly the reasons the Bible says they did.It is the truth. Denying it only changes your heart, not reality.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242016 04/10/06 11:37 PM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242017 04/11/06 01:01 AM
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Actually, I have read theories from Christian theolgians (and then done some of my own reading, too.)

I fully believe in the creation story and expulsion from Eden and everything else. After the fight between the brothers Cain and Abel; Cain leaves and goes off to another people and marries. So it is reasonable to believe that there are other people, even if it is not specifically stated.

As for the difference in life times - it is after the great flood that man's lives are shortened to the lesser time periods (more compatible with today) rather than the hundreds of years like we think of when we picture Adam. You can read in the Bible in Genesis and see where the drastic life changes occur right after Noah and the Ark. Noah's family is the last to live the amazingly long lifespan.

Maybe this was God's way of keeping man from commiting the atrocities that made Him want to wipe the earth clean with a flood - that's pure speculation on my part. But i do know we sin enough in 70- 80 years, I can only imagine how much we could do in hundreds of years! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242018 04/11/06 02:30 AM
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Yes, it is amazing how many people have been brainwashed by the devil to believe his lies.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242019 04/11/06 03:24 AM
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The "creator" story is a common thread through many cultures/religions--even those that pre-date Christ. The concept of a spiritual vessel (like the Christian Eve) is also another common thread.

I believe that the Bible is a series of stories put together by man to explain the unexplainable. That doesn't diminish its value as a teaching tool. After all, you can learn a good many life lessons from Aesop's Fables too. Its merely a matter of perspective.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242020 04/11/06 03:59 AM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242021 04/11/06 06:40 AM
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I would never say or do anything to dissuade anyone from their path or belief structure. I would never say that what I do is right, and whatever anyone else does is wrong. But one has to apply a certain amount of logic, thought and reason to matters.
Archaeologists, historians and theologians are doing much to decipher and untangle the fantasy, fiction and fact the Bible holds...
Throughout the centuries, it has been re-written, translated, adapted, deconstructed and reconstructed, so that many passages put forward today as 'The Word of God' have been found to differ startlingly from the original text and intention....
Moslems would say that their Koran (or however one would wish to spell it...Qu'ran is another way...) is the only true Word of God, and is only transmitted in Arabic...the original language used by the Angel Gabriel to communicate God's Word to Mohammed... any translations are seen as mere interpretations:
And if you could read a copy of the Koran printed and produced today, it would not differ by one single comma, space or line from one printed and produced say, three hundred years ago... the two are identical, such is the perfection, exactitude and accuracy with which they "spread the word"...
One cannot say the same about the Bible.
What one can say, however, is that the central core teaching of the New Testament is Universal Love and Compassion. Jesus spoke of loving ones' neighbour as ones' self... And a New Commandment: 'To love one another, as I have loved you.'

He himself often found fault in the ancient scriptures..
'You have heard it said...'

And would then introduce a new slant:
'But I say unto you....'

So even he regarded them as flawed or questionable, at times....

There is nothing wrong with examining the origins and messages of the ancient scriptures. in a way, removing the mystery and fantasy may be a shame, because such a work risks losing its' majesty. But if such research can in fact help us understand more, the reality of those times, the basis of the faith and the reasoning behind the worship, then it can only help to open our eyes and perceive God with a better, more modern, more enlightened understanding.

I do not believe in God.

But I will defend to the death the Right of others who do.... providing they reciprocate, and respect where I stand......

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242022 04/11/06 09:15 AM
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Alexandra,
You are incorrect. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the Bible has been faithfully reproduced throughout the centuries with the only small mistakes being is slight misspellings and punctuation errors. It is 99.8% accurate to the original text. I do believe in God and I pity those who do not. Theirs is a life without hope. This life is the best it will ever be for them while it is the worst it will ever be for me. The hope that springs eternal from faith helps get you through the tribulations of this life.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242023 04/11/06 12:31 PM
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Edited by request. Alexandra stated that she disagreed with texasdave and sticks by her previous post. She also states that she edited this post under duress for which the moderator thanks her....- Bible Basics Forum Moderator

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 04/26/06 03:54 AM.
Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242024 04/11/06 01:45 PM
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Quote:
The Bible has been faithfully reproduced throughout the centuries with the only small mistakes being is slight misspellings and punctuation errors. It is 99.8% accurate to the original text.


Sure. Minus a few books and parables, heavily edited per King James' instructions, reworked and revised to reflect modern language--which totally changed meanings. Truly reflective of the original text. NOT!

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242025 04/11/06 02:58 PM
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Quote:
The Bible has been faithfully reproduced throughout the centuries with the only small mistakes being is slight misspellings and punctuation errors. It is 99.8% accurate to the original text.


Is that what he said? ***!! Where does he get these statistics - ?!?

Quote:
The vast majority of abortions ( over 99%) are not for life saving reasons.


He came up with this one in the 'Abortion is Murder' thread... Kinda fond of the ol' "99%" isn't he?
The whole concept of accepting the Bible as completely accurate and true to the original doesn't hold water, even with distinguished, educated and advanced members of the clergy... they obviously haven't been put right by our resident world expert here....
***

This post has been edited by the moderator***

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 04/22/06 01:36 AM.
Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242026 04/11/06 11:45 PM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242027 04/11/06 11:58 PM
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A very interesting take on the "Great Flood" and how Noah's children came to be the last to live the very long lives was written by Madeline L'Engle as part of her "Wrinkle in Time" series. It was "Many Waters" - actually a story about the twin brothers Sandy and Dennys who weren't the geniuses in the family. But it's one of those great reads that kinda makes you go "hmmmm, I wonder, nah!"

Just fun for a light afternoon.


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242028 04/12/06 01:27 AM
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"Where does he get these statistics - ?!?"

Out of thin air.

8o)

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242029 04/12/06 09:31 PM
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Look them up.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242030 04/22/06 01:15 AM
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OK!!!

I guess I have been away for too long!!

First and foremost, I want everyone to stop and take a look at what forum you are in.

In here we adhere to the truth and validity of the Bible as God's Word. It's literal. If you don't agree, that's fine, but there will be no bullying in MY forum.

If you are not willing to accept what is said regarding this truth about the Bible, then your in the wrong room.

I don't know how other forums are run here at Bella, but there is a Bella Online Forums code of conduct that is general across the board for everyone here. In this forum, there is also a code of conduct:

1. We will not challenge the Bible as the Word of God.

2. We don't have to agree with one another, but we will not judge God.

3. If we don't know what a certain scripture means or says we will look it up in our own Bible and discuss what it says to us personally.

4. We will recognize that in the rest of the world we always face harsh criticism and negative reactions, but here everyone is safe.

5. Jesus Christ is Lord, Son and Saviour. He will be respected at all times.

6. We will treat everyone the way we expect everyone to treat us.

7. If you can't adhere to this code of conduct, then you need to find another forum.

8. I am the moderator of this forum and if you receive an email from me asking you to edit a post, then you must do it or be expelled.

I am a fair person, but I have been moderating this forum for 5 years now, and I have seen alot of stuff. I refuse to be a babysitter and expect everyone to behave like an adult, so I developed this code of conduct for everyone here. I guess I'll have to repost it here in the forum.

Now we can continue this discussion...

PS, if you have to ignore someone, then maybe this thread is not for you... just food for thought...


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242031 04/22/06 02:17 AM
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Glad to see you back Jenna!
I was wondering when you'd get in here with us (it was getting kind of lonely sometimes... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Have you ever read L'Engle's story? (She is a Christian, BTW, but writes fantasies in much the same vein that CS Lewis did with the Narnia tales).


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242032 04/23/06 06:07 AM
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There is a vast difference between 'Moderation' and 'Censorship'... in a world where we delight in the privilege of Free Speech (unlike other countries such as Burma, China and Nepal) the active participation of contributors to a frank and open discussion should be viewed with an open mind.
Randomly going through posts and editing them at will is not Mindful or skilful Moderation. It's censorship, just because you don't like the content.
There is a difference between Moderating, and Editing because of your personal beliefs. The two should not become blurred or overlap...
Whilst I will accept that offence may have been caused, and that I should apologise for personal remarks made against TexasDave4 - I do so to him, not you. This has nothing to do with you, and should not be subject to your interference.
As I have already told you, he and I have resolved our differences, and now communicate as and when the occasion arises.
Your moderating of this affair should have consisted of merely contacting us both and asking us to keep our differences off forum. This would be the appropriate procedure for anybody engaging in such exchanges.

You see, I too am a Moderator of long standing on another forum. And woe betide me if I permit my personal opinion to interfere with the freedom of others, if all they are doing is engaging in lively debate.
It's simply not done.
Theological discussion broadens the mind and can educate and enlighten. To expect everyone to come onto this forum and adhere to your personally imposed rules and regulations is both short-sighted and unreasonable. Where discussion is animated, lively and diverse, what gives you the right to censor others, simply because you disagree with them?

If this post is edited or moderated in any way, I will complain to the forum administrators.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242033 04/23/06 07:56 AM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242034 04/25/06 12:34 AM
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The Bible is a "revelation", not an "explanation". Jesus explained why God does not reveal everything, in Mark 4:11-12 and Matthew 7:6.
In Genesis 5:1-2, some believe, it reveals that there were more than one set of male & female because it refers to God calling "their" name Adam (maybe Adam & Eve combined?) which they believe refers to other Adams, possibly representing other races. It also says that when God banquished Cain, he went into the land of Nod, there having relations with his wife and concieving Enoch (Gen 4:16-17). They believe Cain's wife was from the other original sets of people.
My belief is that all peoples came from the one set; Adam & Eve. You have to consider though that lifespans were in excess of 900 years in those first generations of people, so that age differences in those who married would be what we now would consider generations apart. This would make them seem more like distant cousins that siblings.

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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242036 04/25/06 05:22 AM
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This would seem to bear out my post (#3) of this thread) that some stories are simply a means of attempting to explain something which in fact nobody actually knows anything about.
When solid concrete, indisputable scientifically-researched data and information tells us that life spans have been steadily increasing during the existence of Mankind, due to the gradual, evolving capacity of this species to improve its lot in Life, it is absolute fantasy to give any credence to these vast ages purportedly reached by these characters, given that the life expectancies due to disease, malnutrition and lifestyle were in fact vastly inferior to those experienced today....Even in our lifetime (when I was a girl) if someone reached the age of 75 or 80, they had done pretty well.... Nowadays, people are seeking to continue employment into their sixties and seventies, and dying at a similar age is considered still 'young'....A reasonable figure is around the ninety mark....!
TexasDave's post (#2) can only be pure hypothesis, to say the very least....there is absolutely no other documented evidence in existence anywhere else which gives credence or support to his statements.
I think him to be a devout Christian, and his belief and persistent, constant referral to Jesus Christ in virtually every post he writes, is admirable, I daresay.... But Leading Theologians and Biblical experts - many of them Men of God themselves - have repeatedly indicated that such matters should be taken with a pinch of salt.
It is one thing to be devoted to ones' God...It is quite another to simply accept an account of happenings at face value, when there is not a single shred of evidence to support their veracity.

I am not seeking to question nor criticise peoples' individual beliefs in God, nor to ridicule or trivialise their faith: What I am saying is that some common sense has to be brought into play here....

Jim's post, for example, does much to attempt to provide a viable explanation of these accounts.... TD4's contribution is at odds with this.... So it would seem that even those who adhere to what they are presented with Biblically, are unable to agree... But the facts given do not stand up to scrutiny.

If you attempt to take every single word of the Bible as concrete fact and as an indisputable account of events as they occurred...Then God HAS to be moving the Goalposts at his own convenience, and playing some terrible and cruel tricks on his own creation.... This in a mortal-level human-based situation, would be regarded quite simply as despotic, unbalanced and frankly outrageous.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242037 04/25/06 04:50 PM
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I mean no disrespect to anyone in saying this but "intellectualizing" some things, does not bring out the truth about them. Those who choose to accept those things we cannot always intellectualize do so by "faith" however, that does not mean it is a blind faith.
Faith doesn't come at all unless a person has a true experience that produces that faith.
Some don't understand this and hate to even hear it said because they are angry at the very concept of God because they feel somehow cheated in life. This brings about the lambasting of those who do have faith.
The fact is, some of the most intelligent people who ever lived, also had/have faith in God and the Bible.
There is no possible way we can intellectually explain that faith or transmit it to others. It is a personal experience that happens but is as real and more so than anything else that person has ever experienced.
Mankind fancies their selves as being highly intelligent and understanding all things when in reality, we know very little (a virtual drop in the bucket).
I don't believe for one moment that resentment toward someone who has faith, by someone else, is because they feel it is non-intelligent to believe but most likely because they resist anything they can't grasp with intelligence. If you struggle with faith from an intellectual standpoint, it is understandable how very frustrating that would be.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242038 04/25/06 06:21 PM
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Very well said, Jim... I see your point and can understand where you are coming from....
I would hope that you are not accusing me of lambasting anyone with regard to the faith they hold.. I already stated on more than one occasion that I find those whose faith and belief is solid, admirable, and for them to remain steadfast is commendable.
What I cannot support are those who in the face of undeniable evidence, still insist on practising Blind Faith.... and I have accused nobody here of doing so, even though I have disputed the presentation of certain matters as factual.....They simply do not stand up to scrutiny, but it is not I who has worked to get to the bottom and origin of these writings...Others have done so, far more capably, and doubtless will continue to do so.
As I further mentioned in my original post - it little matters what the Old testament tells us... the important texts for our time are those found in the Gospels of the New Testament....Jesus Christ's central message, whatever one may think of the bible as a chronological document (factual or otherwise) is the one to take note of....

Just by way of an explanation, I am an Italian Roman Catholic, was convent-educated, and served as a Parent Governor at my daughters' Roman Catholic Dioscesian Primary School, in the U.K. for nearly five years.
so I do have some indication of what it is to both practise a christian religion devotedly, and what it means to have faith and belief....I further have some knowledge of Biblical matters.
I am now 49.
I hope you would agree by the timbre of my posts that I am not incoherent or unintelligent, and I put a great deal of thought and consideration into my forum contributions here....
So it is not without a great degree of thought, consideration and - yes, soul-searching - that I eventually put what I was unable to reconcile myself to, aside.
I am a practising and devoted Buddhist now, and believe me - for me - This is definitely the better, more satisfying, and yet completely demanding path to follow.
I enjoy discussions of this calibre enormously, and inspite of my declining my catholic religious background in favour of another course, wholeheartedly respect, admire and support the desire of others to follow God as devoted worshippers.

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Yes, but what about evolution? Is it against Christian teaching, or can it be accepted as part of a Christian God's work? Surely scientific evidence is proof?

Jane


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242040 04/25/06 07:28 PM
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"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason" (Ben Franklin).
No, I was being general and not accusing you but would like to add below:
The number of people from highly intellectual backgrounds, who Believe in the God of the Bible is huge. I'll start with famous Scientists, then will go on to famous Astonauts (Bible was read to the world viewing audience on the Apollo missions.)
Bible/God Believing Scientists:
John Philoponus
Hugh of St. Victor
Robert Grosseteste
Roger Bacon
Dietrich von Frieberg
Thomas Bradwardine
Nicole Oresme
Nicholas of Cusa
Georgias Agricola
Johannes Kepler
Johannes Baptista van Helmont
Francesco Maria Grimaldi
Blaise Pascal
Robert Boyle
John Ray
Isaac Barrow
Antonie van Leeuwenhoek
Niels Seno
James Bradley
Ewald Georg von Kleist
Carolus Linnaeus
Leonhard Euler
John Dalton
Thomas Young
David Brewster
William Buckland
Adem Sedgwick
Augustin-Jean Fresnel
Augustin Louis Cauchy
Michael Faraday
John Frederick William Herschel
Matthew Fontaine Maury
Philip Henry Gosse
Asa Gray
James Dwight Dana
George Boole
James Prescott Joule
John Couch Adams
George Gabriel Stokes
Gregor Mendel
Bible/God Believing Astronauts
Buzz Aldrin (Apollo 11)
James Benson Erwin ( Colonel USAF Apollo 15)
Charles Moss Duke Jr. (Brigidare General USAF Apollo 16)

Again, I'm being general but some non-believers try to perpetuate the idea that only a few un-informed, oldfashioned, non-intellectuals believe in the God of the Bible but this is far from the truth. I'm, barely scratching the surface with these listed. There are Entertainers from movies, music etc..., some you would not even suspect that are also believers in the God of the Bible.
The "intellectual" argument was not enough to dissuade them.
Just thought I'd add this for interest.

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Just my opinion of course but evolution DOES NOT have the scientific proof behind it that is claimed. I do believe the fossil record etc..., does have proof for an extremely ancient earth but the evolution of species, into other species is a false theory.
Instead of going into the endless aspects of each side of this argument, can I just mention a couple of common sense things?
In the theory of evolution, it doesn't just claim man cam from apes but starts with single cells, then more complicated cells, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, tree dwelling mammals, apes and then man. Of course I condensed this and there were many other in-betweens, including different stages of man.
Here's the common sense questions; 1. If we deveoped from these species as did many other species (lizards to birds etc..), then why do all of these pre-species still exist???? Why if man came from apes, are the apes still here? Why so many species of apes and monkeys still here, from 600lb gorillas, down to spider-monkeys you can hold in the palm of your hand? Does this mean there are literally millions of stages of evolution, continually in motion? If this were true, why did it stop at man, as the final result? If perpetual evolution was actually happening and starting over and over again, you would have a huge number of in-betweens and not the jumps from one to the other. For example if lizards are still becoming birds, where are the hundreds and hundres of slight change-species??? Where are the different stages of scales turning into feathers. There should be some lizards out there with .001 percent feathers, to 99.009 perent scales and on up the scale!! The same true with all the others, which means the earth would be a complete mess, full of in-between species at every different stage.
Do you see the problem with evolution? This argument IS NOT SILLY, is has as much validity as any other question that could be asked about evolution!

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242042 04/25/06 07:51 PM
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Thank you for coming back to me Jim....
This is a good, long list of public, distinguished, intelligent, renowned and rightly respected and respectable people, and more wings to them for holding fast to their faith...
I would venture to suggest, however, that if you were able to ask all of them separately, how they interpret the Story of the Creation, you would get many varied and possibly conflicting replies...
But I say again - this does not matter. Not a jot.
To my mind, the important thing is how a person practises their faith, and how they adhere to the rules and guidelines therein.... And there are non-conformists, middle-of-the-roaders and extremists, in every creed and faith, adhering to various doctrines, and all following their faiths as best they know how....

As a famous sage once said:
"It little matters whether Heaven exists or not - the important is to live your life as if it did...."

The important thing, at the end of the day, is not what you believe, but how you walk the talk....how you reflect and embody the sanctity of your faith.

Last edited by Alexandra; 04/25/06 07:53 PM.
Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242043 04/25/06 07:53 PM
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Jim,

'Does this mean there are literally millions of stages of evolution, continually in motion?'

Yes. But it's very, very slow!

best wishes - Jane <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Today is good <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242044 04/25/06 08:07 PM
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Evolution is an ongoing situation...Nothing has stopped, but when you look at how long things have taken up to now, this is why it's so slow, and why it's still going on amongst us...
they have now discovered that chimps alive today, have better motor skills than chimps studied forty or fifty years ago... chimps today are practised in the use of basic tools to break nuts, and dig insects out of holes...things which a lifetilme ago, nobody observed them performing....

there is a wasp in the South American rainforest the behaviour of which, has changed in the last hundred years or so, to adapt to its' changing surroundings... when once it chose a unique host ( a beetle) for its larvae, it has been noted by scientists that this particular beetle is in decline...The wasp has also noticed this... and has found a different species entirely (a spider) in which to lay its egg.....
There is a bird in South America whose plumage has gradually changed colour because its habitat (due to human agriculture) has altered....

This is evolution in progress....
Some animals have stayed virtually the same (if it ain't broke, why fix it...?) whereas others have changed over the eons to follow and adapt, and to avoid extinction...
But "new" species are being discovered all the time....Whilst many are also being eradicated, due largely to human influence and interference (voluntary or otherwise....)
Life does not stop here....

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242045 04/25/06 08:14 PM
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Here again, the fact of it being very, very slow, should present that much more opportunity to see the huge number of transitions taking place. Instead, the species are clearly distinguishable.
It could be my question is just hard to frame, let me try again; "If evolution happened ONCE, the past pre-species should not exist but if it continually perpetuates, we should be seeing half-man/half-apes(bigfoot perhaps), three quarters man/one quarter apes etc.............?" (Use the same question for EVERY species out there.)
I'm not being the least bit funny, this is a totally and completely logical question that cannot be answered by a false theory, no matter who attempts to do so, or how lengthy a dissertation they may undertake in attempt to do so.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242046 04/25/06 08:16 PM
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JimLow,

Your faith involving experience argument really got me thinking. While I tend to agree with you, I did have early faith based on no experience, and that faith got stronger based on things that happened to me. I do believe the God of the Bible of which you speak asks for faith based on no experience, however. And it's possible to happen, since I was raised an atheist.

As for evolution - it is not incompatible with religion. Even the Buddhist scholars are coming to say this, as are scientists. It doesn't interfere for me.

I think once man settles on other planets, and evolves and changes, we'll see that it does occur, and that it only proves the magnificence of God that he can create with such a flexible hand.

Lastly, your list of intellectual believers is nice, but it's a DWM list. What is that? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" /> A predominantly (if not totally) dead white male list. Most college graduate ladies like myself use this acronym to reflect that history books and lectures are filled with these people and markably exclude the experiences of women, blacks, natives, etc. To persuade others, include the experiences of all world cultures and both sexes.


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242047 04/25/06 08:23 PM
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I'm wondering if Jim realizes (or even believes) the planet is 4-6 billion years old?

Early man is 1 million years old.

We've only had the written word for the past 10,000 years.

Now we have the Internet.

If that's not progress and development of the human brain(from 10,000 years ago pressing cuneiforms into soft rock to programming source code that can create video games and the Internet) evolving and changing, then I don't know what is. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Presumably, if we're done evolving, we would have had the Internet 10,000 years ago, and at the time Pontius Pilate wiped his hands. So where's the video?


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242048 04/25/06 08:34 PM
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Whilst I hate to divert from my prior two posts, I must post once more.

Quote:
Why if man came from apes, are the apes still here? Why so many species of apes and monkeys still here


There are not many ape species left. Only 5.

The chimp, bonobo, gorilla, orangutang, and human.

Monkeys are different than apes, and a different species.

Neanderthal man was wiped out by its more brutal relative, homo sapiens sapiens. Same goes for homo erectus afarensis (Lucy) and the others. Do you believe their fossil existence is a vast conspiracy?

Quote:
then why do all of these pre-species still exist


Vast numbers of pre-species do not exist. 4 million years ago, Equus arrived. It split into two groups, some of which developed into the zebra. The other group changed into the modern pony, and then the horse.

However, 6 million years ago, there was the mesohippus and eohippus and other early horse-like creatures who have nearly all the hallmark of modern horses except their size and the fact they still walked on separate toes and the hoof hadn't formed yet. Over time, the one-toed hoof developed due to it making for a faster horse who did not get caught and die, and those animals survived to breed.


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242049 04/25/06 08:43 PM
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The "true experience" I mentioned isn't referring to an "experience" as being what brought a person faith, I'm saying the experience itself was real to the person (true not imagined), when the faith did come. They didn't need outside confirmation of faith experienced in the heart. Faith is a spritual thing and faith in God does come from "hearing his word". Once the faith is experienced, that is when I'm saying is becomes a true experience.
There becomes a problem with semantics (meanings of words) when everything is scrutinized to death. To be honest with you, debates like this, where something wrong is found in every tiny thing that someone else says, reaches a point to where everything begins to lose meaning.
I call it hyper-philosophy, for example: "that depends on what the meaning of the word "is", is.
These type discussions in my opinion, are not for the purpose of finding truth (hyper-philosophy "but what is truth?"), they are simply designed to make truth look like an unattainable. This way we can all arrive at our own truths.
I could choose my own truth if I wanted to but I personally have chosen to believe in the Bible as God's Word and truth for mankind. Everyone has a choice, I respect yours.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242050 04/25/06 08:56 PM
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Alexandra Offline
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Quote:
As for evolution - it is not incompatible with religion. Even the Buddhist scholars are coming to say this, as are scientists. It doesn't interfere for me.


Buddhism has never disputed evolution.. in fact, Buddhism is known as the most Scientific of Religions (even though some refer to it more as a philosophy....) and much of what can be found in Buddhist teaching, is reflected in Scientific terms...
To give but a couple of examples....

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"

= Karma/Vitthaka

Energy is a force which can neither be created nor destroyed...Only channelled and transformed".

This supports and bears out question of re-birth (notice I do NOT say reincarnation) ....and rebirth, by the way, was considered entirely normal and viable by Christians, until around the 11th Century when it was realised that unless Church Authorities were able to control the masses and convince their largely poor, ignorant and illiterate flock, that divine retribution and purgatory and Hell were real punishments meted out by God for not following his laws, most people were sublimely content in the knowledge of returning to try again...This is the point where "the wrath of God" came in....

Quote:
Lastly, your list of intellectual believers is nice, but it's a DWM list. What is that? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" /> A predominantly (if not totally) dead white male list. Most college graduate ladies like myself use this acronym to reflect that history books and lectures are filled with these people and markably exclude the experiences of women, blacks, natives, etc. To persuade others, include the experiences of all world cultures and both sexes.


I often wonder what race or what colour Adam and Eve were... and why were they adult when God made them? And if he did create others, why are they not mentioned...? and if they in turn didn't eat from The Tree of Knowledge, were they still punished as Adam and Eve were?

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242051 04/25/06 09:07 PM
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I believe the planet could be eons of ages old so yes, Jim does realize this.
I believe the Bible reveals a pre-historic time period but I also believe Adam's dispensation goes back only 6,000 to 7,000 years. The pre-historic time still did not involve evolution.
Let me try this one more time because I can't keep repeating, for one thing my question is not being understood (maybe my fault). I'm not upset, just wondering how much plainer I can state it. I'm not offended but I'm going as far as I can and still not getting the point across.
How, can an ape jump from the ape species, to man? Again, there are apes, there is man (right!). Over time, if one is evolving into another, with the pre-species also perpetuating, you are not going to have only two or three variations of horses, man or anything else. The slightest change in a species is proposed by evolution to take millions of years! (follow me so far?) Where are all the in-between species that took the millions upon million of years to develop when both ends of the spectrum are here and in full sight???
Honest to goodness it is a legitimate question but it has to be addressed DIRECTLY. By taking a side thought and explaining other areas that evolution believes and bringing up the earth's age, does not directly answer this question.
I'm not coming from frustration, honestly! (I already know the answer) What I am doing is trying to be passionately specific in trying to get understanding across on this question and the fact that is has never been answered.
"Missing link" is an incredible understatement, the whole chain is missing. The pre-species of men have repeatedly been proven to be teeth of extinct pigs or derived from fragments etc... The proof has never been there but also still does not answer the above framed question of evolution in the present(right now)!
I'll end on this particular subject with this post but did appreciate the correspondence. I respect everyone on here and their sincere search for answers.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242052 04/25/06 10:43 PM
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You're asking the wrong people....
None of us is a scientist, nor an archeologist, nor an historian... so we cannot supply you with these answers....

There are experts on both sides of the fence who will argue both cases with as much coviction and faith in their respective 'proofs'....

But any belief of a system which is primarily based on having faith in a flawed document, to my mind is neither sound nor reliable.

With all the very best will in the world, I put muy faith into scientific research, carbon dating and common sense.

Thank you.

Nice talking to you.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242053 04/26/06 01:40 AM
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Wow, I have been away for a few days!

(Welcome Jim.)
I'm one of those that believes that the bible and science are not mutually exclusive of each other.

Evolution can be taken at many levels - and I do believe man has "evolved" to an extent. From some reading that I've done it would appear that mankind has grown taller and more muscular over the years. Look at all of the Olympic records that keep being broken - it would not be possible if man were not getting "better".

The same goes for all animals; they adapt or evolve to ensure survival. The same for viruses and bacteria (which is why we have the problem with antibiotics that we do! Sorry, sore subject of mine from the Asthma page, LOL)

Now, do I believe that man once was swimming in the ocean and crawled up onto land to become a monkey then into homosapien? NO. That's not adaptation, that is a complete metamorphosis.

I have also stated (somewhere long, long ago) that I don't disagree with the big bang theory either. However no scientist has any reason why it occured. Could that not have been the way God chose to start our solar system? I don't know, and neither does anyone else.

I have never seen anything in science to disprove God. But neither will I ever see proof of Him, because all the proof has already been supplied - it is up to us to choose whether to believe in it or not. That's where faith comes in - and that is the hingepoint of Christianity - whichever denomination we are speaking of.


Michelle Taylor
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Faith and free will... we all have choices.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242055 04/26/06 02:07 AM
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I'm replying now on this new area of subject, as commented above, by Alexandra:
People who accept theories that are other than Biblical are also putting faith in "flawed documents".
How do you determine if the Bible is flawed? Do you determine this because you believe it is? What document does contain absolute truth, the documents of Buddah?
People comment on theories that are other than Biblical all the time (like in the preceeding posts), who are not archeologists, scientists or historians. How are they able to do this (Christians included), when they are none of these?
The majority of the time people accept what they WISH TO BELIEVE and has nothing to do with proof.
Why do I accept the Bible? I accept it foremost because it bears witness with my deepest self (heart). I also accept it because of its fulfillment of hundreds of precise prophecies. The claim that there are contradictions in the Bible, is a wish and not a claim with any substance.
I tried to find contradictions in it, as an atheist,in my youth but instead I accepted its truth and was profoundly changed. Some call it a religious experience, I call it eternal life but I cannot, even with every waking second of my life, convince someone else that what I experience is true and real. I can only share my beliefs and they can accept or reject based on what they search out for their selves.
We get caught up in "proving" things when in reality even proof itself is not enough for most people. People resist what they don't want to believe and bend over backwards to believe what they do want to believe.
Bottom line; You're gonna believe what you want to believe but that does not take away from the fact that there is ONLY ONE TRUTH for every aspect that exists.
My choice is the Bible, as God's Word and truth. Everyone comes to their own decision. I share what I believe to be truth that I also believe brings eternal life, people then search it out and accept or reject. My responsibility, is sharing what I believe is God's Word, God and that person will have to take it from there.
Michelle, have you read my article Jenna has featured, having to do with the age of the earth and fall of Lucifer?

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242056 04/26/06 02:12 AM
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No, but I will have to do so!

I've been a bit overwhelmed with a family issue this week, and so haven't been on top of my game I'm afraid. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I'll be back when I've had a chance to look at it! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242057 04/26/06 04:16 AM
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Jim has written an excellent article and submitted it to me for publishing on the Bible Basics site. Hehas also posted on another thread for questions about his article...I was so awed by it that it is running live on the site right now. I think everyone should go read it, both part 1 and part 2.

yes, maybe
Ii am harsh and blunt and too friendly with the edit button, but I feel that we should all just be nice. There are people who come in and read all the time without posting and sometimes what we write can be read the wrong way. Even though I know you all are involved in a wonderful and very well thought out debate ( which I am loving, by the way) I felt that the certain way the comment was posted needed to be re-worded.

It was not an attack on anyone individually. I won't do that. But just remember that there are other people who read this string and they may not understand...

please continue with the discussion...

PS If the poster wants to go back and reword her particular post in a more reader-friendly way she is absolutly welcome to do so. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 04/26/06 04:18 AM.

JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242058 04/26/06 04:57 AM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242059 04/26/06 06:40 AM
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Quote:
I'm replying now on this new area of subject, as commented above, by Alexandra:

.....How do you determine if the Bible is flawed? Do you determine this because you believe it is? What document does contain absolute truth, the documents of Buddah?


Actually, one of the first Sutras taught by the Buddha was the Kalama Sutra, which strongly encourages Students of Life and 'Seekers of Truth' to absolutely strip every lesson to shreds and to scrutinise anything they learn with clarity and precision, and to further question, re-question, and if necessary, question again, before accepting anything as an infallible Truth. And he held up his teachings, first and foremost, to this scrutiny before anything else....
Whilst I wish to be extremely respectful to my Christian friends here, speaking purely from a personal and singular point of View, the Bible did not stand up to my scrutiny, whereas everything I have learnt through Buddhism has yet to throw shadows of Doubt across my Field of Logic.....

Quote:
.....The majority of the time people accept what they WISH TO BELIEVE and has nothing to do with proof......
Why do I accept the Bible? I accept it foremost because it bears witness with my deepest self (heart)......


If the majority of people accept what they WISH to believe, then they are not using the intelligence and discernment they were born with...
I am repeating myself...I have nothing but admiration for those who accept the Word of God into their hearts, be it via the Bible, the Qu'ran or through the Torah....
But the heart is the seat of emotion, and the Mind is the seat of Logic.

Quote:
I tried to find contradictions in it, as an atheist,in my youth but instead I accepted its truth and was profoundly changed. Some call it a religious experience, I call it eternal life but I cannot, even with every waking second of my life, convince someone else that what I experience is true and real. I can only share my beliefs and they can accept or reject based on what they search out for their selves......


This part, I cannot dispute, providing you have done with your chosen scripture what I have done with mine... Stripped it to its absolute bare minimum essentials, line by line, scrap by scrap, and found every single syllable to be diamond-cut clear and fundamentally true....

Quote:
We get caught up in "proving" things when in reality even proof itself is not enough for most people. People resist what they don't want to believe and bend over backwards to believe what they do want to believe......


You are generalising strongly here.... people may be more intelligent, more discerning and more skeptical than you realise. 'People' now, more than at any other time in the percievable History of Man, are seeking for something stable and immovable upon which they can rely.... people from all walks of Life want to find a rock for their anchor... This is why there has been such a surge of Spirituality and New-age thinking in recent years. I am not for one moment attempting to indicate that it's all "good" or commendable, but more and more people are looking for something upon which to rely.


Quote:
Bottom line; You're gonna believe what you want to believe but that does not take away from the fact that there is ONLY ONE TRUTH for every aspect that exists.


According to Buddhism, there are Two levels of Truth:
Relative and Absolute.... And one must first understand, accept and embrace the first, before being able to do the same with the second....but the two are inextricably linked...

Quote:
My choice is the Bible, as God's Word and truth. Everyone comes to their own decision. I share what I believe to be truth that I also believe brings eternal life, people then search it out and accept or reject. My responsibility, is sharing what I believe is God's Word, God and that person will have to take it from there.


The key word here, the absolute crux of your discussion, is the word 'CHOICE'. You have chosen to believe and accept the Bible as the unshakable word of God, and for this, I heartily commend you and deeply respect and honour your Belief and Faith.
Again, simply from my own personal and individual perspective, I subjected it to scrutiny, and along the way, discovered Buddhism. But I did not 'choose' Buddhism because I had faith in its teachings, or believed what the Buddha taught is true... I moved to Buddhism because, quite simply, there is nothing within its teachings that can be disputed, questioned or held up to be ambiguous....

I will at this point emphasise something encouraged throughout Buddhist teachings, and state that my above responses have come about through my own personal study and appreciation of the Buddha's teachings...
Aach one must absorb their personal scriptures for themselves, and accept or reject the lesson therein.... I do not claim to speak for, or to represent other Buddhists. I would never say 'Buddhists think' or 'As Buddhists, we all'....Because, as a Buddhist, I am encouraged to Accept only that which will enable ME to see Truth face to face.

I also would like to take this opportunity of thanking the forum Moderator for being open and caring enough to permit this discussion to continue.
You all have my gratitude and respect for being so generous.

wow i dislike the title of this thread... #242060 04/26/06 04:31 PM
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JimLow, pleasure discussing with you. You are articulate and considerate, as are the rest of the folks in here.

Now, 10% of me wanted to cry foul when you immediately resorted to the Bible is the Word of God and the that's all I need argument. Did not God make you a reasoning, intelligent being? Isn't is the responsibility of intelligent people to challenge authority?

Did not Christ himself question the Jewish rabbi's interpretation of scripture and the way they did things (like charging money to get into the temple)? His very example was to challenge authority and do what was right, what feels right in our heart, and not take the words of "experts" on God.

However, I totally agree with you that some things are beyond words to even express. Such as rapture. Enlightenment. The true nature of the creator.

This is why the Buddha held up a flower as one sermon, without mentioning a word.

The greatest things can only be felt, and can never be explained. Discussion and splitting hairs (your semantics reference) can't really get us to any end but discussion for the sake of it. (And I'll never forgive Bill Clinton for the 'that depends what 'is' is' defense.)

But I love discussion. I love being a thinking, rational, logically-induced being. It's fun. However, at the end of the day I'm going to go with my gut feeling, just as you.


Darling Poor
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To Alexandra,

I did not mean to imply that Buddhists never accepted evolution. Only that they were the first to state it was not incompatible with a belief in a creator.

It's refreshing to find someone who carefully reads my words and can find the flaws in my arguments and is not afraid to point them out to me. Such is message board posting that I go quickly and don't spend time to edit a spare word, such as "even" in my post, which would have removed the implication that they were against evolution at the get-go.

Big bang: Vishnu sleeps in the pool of cosmic consciousness and he opens his eyes and closes his eyes and the universe is created and destroyed. And the world is his dream.

I also note that pictures rendered of the entire universe seem to resemble a lotus flower. To my mind anyway. The Buddhists I believe also noted this.


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242062 04/26/06 05:29 PM
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Again, just my opinion but the "hyper-philosophy" I spoke of earlier, implies man-woman has reached a "spiritual plane" and a super-intelligence but is also a "self" religion, where man-woman appoints their selves as God.
With this condition of self, everything is also super-scrutinized, except what self wants to accept as truth. The use of intelligent sounding words, doesn't make something truth and neither does deep sounding philosophical meanderings.
Christianity is different, in that it is not about self but also about giving to others, as was demonstrated by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who did this to save others.
I know this, my final post on this subject, will again be corrected with deep philosophy and super intelligence and this does not offend me, I sincerely hope it somehow helps you to do so.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242063 04/26/06 06:25 PM
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HorsecrazyGal, thank you for your comments...Really nice engaging with you on this one....:)

The Buddha taught that there are Four Impondrables....
areas of cogitation which can only ever lead to pure speculation, simply because there are no means available to be able to answer the questions without any room for question or ambiguity....

"The definitive abilities of a fully enlightened Being to perceive the Truth of the imponderables, as opposed to the abilities of one still subect to illusion, and samsara: This is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...(That is to say the profound efect of complete immersion in meditation, and that person's abilities to control involuntary functions, whilst in the depth of meditation)

"The [precise working out of the] results of karma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, existence of a Creator,etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

These then, are, according to the Buddha, subjects best left to one side, because to the unenlightened Mind, in a state of illusion, the answers cannot be satisfactorily provided.;
And that's fine....


Jim....
I'm not at all sure exactly what it is you are trying to say...
For my part, I would never personally, following the path I do, set myself up as a Deity to myself, nor to anyone else for that matter...
In fact, the Buddha grew angry when his followers and disciples attempted to elevate his status to something above human...he was adamant and insistent that this was never ever to be considered, or transmitted....he strongly resisted all effigies depicting him, but realising that they might help his followers with their devotional visualisations, he relented, but insisted that any effigy did not actually resemble him, as a likeness...
This being said, Buddhists refer to Universal Buddha-Nature being in every sentient being - that is to say, that anyone is capable of reaching Enlightenment, just as Buddha did...... and Christians attempt, through their Thoughts, Words and Deeds, to be the very embodiment and personification of Christ.... Christians are taught to accept Christ into their hearts...So surely it follows that assuming they are righteous and devoted, Christ is within them and speaking through them? They are in fact, 'God-like'?

Or have I misunderstood you?
And why give up on the discussion? This is so interesting....!

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242064 04/26/06 08:35 PM
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Since you asked the question as to what I meant, let me answer it but I'm not discontinuing involvement in this same discussion because I'm "giving up on it", I just feel it ends in the same responses and is repetitious. Some religions actually practice repetition but to me they are "vain repetitions". And again, that's my opinion and I mean no offense.
My reference to seeking for self only, as being god-like, is because self-sufficiency taken to far, with no reliance upon God as the giver of life, is the equivalent to that. A person in such religious philosophy, doesn't have to say "I'm a god" or "I am God", for this to apply to them. It is evident in their implied knowledge of all things, or at least in their pursuit of that god-plane.
Christ dwelling in a Christian's heart by faith has no similarity to what I just described. It is because of a person knowing they are lost without God, that they accept his Lordship in their lives. A person who recieves Christ, has more reliance on him from that point on and they actually "die to self". This doesn't mean God takes our individuality away, he knows us each by name and even has the hairs of our head numbered. His Lordship means he directs our paths, inspiring us, leading us and filling us with his Holy Spirit.
This may anger some but you'll have to take it up with THE AUTHOR but the Bible says, that there is not one being that has ever been in existence (any name you want to name, including religious figures), that will not some day confess that Jesus is Lord (Phil 2:9-11,Rom 14:11).

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242065 04/27/06 12:01 AM
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Hmm, I'm wondering where in my words you derived the implication I believe I am god-like or know all things. I opined on some subjects, and that is all.

I'd be the first to state that some things cannot be known, or even discussed in words. In fact, I did so state.

Curious, but in speaking with Catholics/Christians over the years, I have found that they, more than any other follower, likes to super-scrutinze what they believe is truth, i.e., the Bible. Rarely will you find one who does not have a well-worn Bible they can recite in depth.

Therefore, this person you describe, this super-scrutinizer who believes they hold absolute truth, does not sound like my questioning self, but like you. In a bizarre irony known as deconstruction, you have in fact, described yourself in the words above.

I'd also like to note that you do not know to which religion I adhere, because I have never yet stated it in here. Don't assume that because I am knowledgeable in some world religions that I adhere strictly to any of them, or that I discount Christ. I don't. I have deep love for Christ, Buddha, Native American Goddesses and more. It's simply that I feel all religions speak of the same thing.

Christianity can not claim to be original. It borrows heavily on Zoroastrianism, a far older religion. Zoroaster created Satan. Satan was stolen from the Zoroastrians, given the Pagan goat feet and horns and inserted into the ancient Jewish text known at the Old Testament. That's not super-intelligence, it's historical fact.

All cultures have flood stories. All cultures have Moses stories. And these are cultures which predate the Old Testament. The borrowing is heavy. But why do we even need to split hairs who said what first? I'm only trying to say I believe they all, in essence, say the same things. That's not super-intelligence, it's common sense.

Let me quote something I heard Joseph Campbell say. These are not MY words but food for thought. "Once you say that your God is the God, then everyone else's God is no God at all."

And that leads to religion toppling, world wars, and cultural genocide.


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242066 04/27/06 01:57 AM
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I didn't have your posts in mind at all when I posted mine.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242067 04/27/06 02:54 AM
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As Alexandra so eloquently stated, "to the unenlightened Mind, in a state of illusion, the answers cannot be satisfactorily provided."

From Psalms: Wisdom calls aloud in the streets and the public square. It is our duty as sentient beings to seek out the parables of the wise men/women of the ages, to study them, to learn from them, and to seek our own paths to the divine.

Truth is not aboslute and the paths to enlightment (if you choose to use that word) are varied.

Proverbs 1
Prologue: Purpose and Theme
1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for attaining wisdom and discipline;
for understanding words of insight;

3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
doing what is right and just and fair;

4 for giving prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young-

5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance-

6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.

7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools [a] despise wisdom and discipline.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242068 04/27/06 06:25 AM
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Quote:

Let me quote something I heard Joseph Campbell say. These are not MY words but food for thought. "Once you say that your God is the God, then everyone else's God is no God at all."

And that leads to religion toppling, world wars, and cultural genocide.


Wonderful post in its entirety, CHgal...

Gandhi - one of the most respected, renouned and saintly men of our times, said that

"God has NO religion"...

He also said:

"The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different."

I do not feel it appropriate, however, to continue responding to your posts Jim, because I sense that the discussion shows signs of descending down to the level of a mere tit-for-tat argument on the veracity of the scriptures unde the microscope, and I for one am not prepared to table counter discussion.
I promised the Moderator of this forum that I would not stoop to undignified or contradictory argumentative exchange, and much as I am both tempted and capable of countering the points you have put forward, I have decided to leave it at that.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242069 04/27/06 01:59 PM
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I'm not a historian - but it was only for a little while that Satan was represented as the cloven hoofed "Pan" type creature. And I don't think it was by all denominations that he was represneted this way - I think it was only by some trying to "downplay" his power and make him seem harmless and silly. (Which to me seems a serious mistake - in a military view one should never over- nor underustimate the enemy.)

The Bible refers to him, as Lucifer, as the most beautiful of all angels, and then on earth can take any form (snake for instance - which was a most beautiful creature itself until after the temptation of Eve - hmmm, could this be where the Dragons came from? Conjecture only).

Quote:
Curious, but in speaking with Catholics/Christians over the years, I have found that they, more than any other follower, likes to super-scrutinze what they believe is truth, i.e., the Bible. Rarely will you find one who does not have a well-worn Bible they can recite in depth.


I know I was taught to do this, not so I could go around quoting the Bible at other people, but so that I could have God's Word in my heart, should I ever be in a situation where I needed advice. The Bible has just about everything you could think of in it - murder, stealing, lying to your best friend, getting jealous of your sister, etc. King David alone is an excellent example of what one should and should not do on a daily basis! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> So that's why it is good to memroize scripture, to have a handy "guide" and it helps bring one closer to God. Because even though I have invited Him to be my Lord and guide me, I still have free will, and I exert it daily. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (I feel a song posting coming on - be on the lookout!)

Quote:
Let me quote something I heard Joseph Campbell say. These are not MY words but food for thought. "Once you say that your God is the God, then everyone else's God is no God at all."


But that is the truth. I believe (as I'm sure Jim and Jenna do as well) that there is only one God - Jehovah. In 1 Kings 18: 20 - 40 it tells the story of the prophet Elijah and the priests of the false god Baal. I won't wuote the whole thing - it'll take up the whole page, here's a link Elijah and the priests of baal But this IS our stance as Christians. It doesn't make us popular, but our commission is not to win a popularity contest, but to spread the Word of God and to show people His incredible love. And as a side effect, to keep people from spending an eternity in Hell. (That's the less pleasant side of it.) <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242070 04/27/06 02:01 PM
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Oh, Jim - read the article, but I'll post on it in the correct spot! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(After I get back from the hospital)


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242071 04/27/06 02:09 PM
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Quote:
I think it was only by some trying to "downplay" his power and make him seem harmless and silly. (Which to me seems a serious mistake - in a military view one should never over- nor underustimate the enemy.)



Michelle, help me out here, because this is something which always truly puzzled me....

God is the Omnipotent Creator who guides through his word, and encourages His followers to the non-practise of Sin...Right?

Lucifer, on the other hand, is His opposite.. he is the Great Temptation personified, the embodiment of all that God rejects, the one who encourages mankind to stray and do evil....

But if Mankind was given Free Will, the power of choice and discernment, then... isn't it an easy way of copping out of the responsibility of ones' actions to say, both "I was Guided by God" or "I was tempted by the Devil"... ?
Doesn't this offer an explanation for a decision which was based entirely on Human Voluntary thought process?

new title new title new title lol #242072 04/27/06 04:42 PM
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Great quotes from Gandhi, Alexandra. Hadn�t heard those but excellent, thanks for sharing.

And thanks for the quotes, Lynn. Some powerful stuff, and proof that even Christian text does say there are many paths and many wise (wo)men from all ages. Why is that ignored?

Bella, I think it is admirable you know the Bible so well and hold so much belief in your heart. I�m more of the �text of no text� school. I love and adore words. But I also know that �everything transitory is but a reference� (Goethe). That is to say, there are eternals which cannot be expressed in language because their magnificence exceeds the power of words to convey.

Come to me as a child, He said. Children can�t read. Children don�t need to point to a phrase in a man-written book, which is subject to mistake, to justify their love.

My degree is in English, not history. But I do know the early Catholic church did not use Pagan goat feet and horns to diminish Satan�s power. It was an attempt to demonize another faith.

Back then, men and women worshipped male and female Gods. The male God was Kernunnos or Pan. The Catholic popes wanted to vilify Pan. Make him evil. If you danced to Pan, you were dancing to Satan. Demonizing another faith. Now in order to choose �good,� you had to stop your prior faith and take on the official new one. It�s the politics of people control. God toppling, spin doctoring. It is somewhat like how the Nazis took a beautiful symbol of the four winds of the Natives, changed it slightly, and now that symbol is a hated image in our world.

What is so wrong with accepting the fact that God has many faces? Politicians don�t like it because it makes the masses hard to control. And the indoctrination has gone so far down the line from pope to bishop to follower that people actually believe God has only one face. The official face, official name, official party line.

I really wish all the religions of the world would ease up on this �our God alone is the one� insistence. It was this belief that caused Spaniards to find all Aztecs were pagan and death be to them who would not convert. It is behind the crusades against Islam, which still haven�t stopped. And both sides are to blame.

Who knows the truth? Can you really believe any person on earth holds the truth? If so, then you are in fact following men, not God. To me, any book is Baal. Buddha knew this. Buddha knew if he wrote a book, it would be used to people control, bash folks over the head with. He acquiesced, but made sure the words he wrote could not be used against other humans.

I paraphrase Dostoevsky � �Hell or not is bargaining, not faith.� In The Brothers Karamazov, he told his brother priest that Catholics are afraid to relax their stance, accepting that all Gods can equally be valid, out of fear. And I think the essence of God is love, not fear.

�Love is the only rational act,� said Levine. An omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being does not require your fear, or for you to instill it in others. Only a return of the love he put in our own hearts.

And love has no face.


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242073 04/27/06 05:03 PM
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Quote:
But if Mankind was given Free Will, the power of choice and discernment, then... isn't it an easy way of copping out of the responsibility of ones' actions to say, both "I was Guided by God" or "I was tempted by the Devil"... ?
Doesn't this offer an explanation for a decision which was based entirely on Human Voluntary thought process?


Yes, I do believe to use either as a total answer is a "copout". My 14 yr old is constantly trying to tell me that Satan "tempted" him to do something when I catch him in a lie or doing something wrong. I will then point out that it may have been Satan tempting him (or using someone else to) but it was his choice whether to fall into that temptation or not!

Likewise God guides us in the way we should go - the best way for us, but it is our choice whether or not to follow it. He can use us to His benefit either way, but it is to our benefit if we follow His way.

It's kind of like a ramped up Jiminy Cricket! Pinocchio didn't do such a good job of listening to him either. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Re: new title new title new title lol #242074 04/27/06 05:18 PM
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Thanks Darling, it was tickling in the back of my head somewhere what the origin of the Satan - pan thing was!

Ok, I forgot the original - but the Catholic drawings of Pan/Satan were not the "cute" ones. They depicted a powerful being that was quite frightening. I'm talking a little later down the line that Satan was "reduced" by some well-meaning, but misguided Christians hoping to show that Satan is inferior to God by making him look silly - which he is anything but.

And I have often wondered if some of the lesser known religions that have a singular god by a different name may be worshipping our Lord. But any religion that worships more than one god (or goddess) cannot fall into that category, because He says "I am the Lord your God" - singular. He's not sharing that post with anyone.

But you are right when you said that God is about love. Everything He does is with love, it's us people that screw it up - even when we have good intentions sometimes. That's where dave and i kept getting into it. He wanted to preach the sin/Hell aspect, I'd rather talk about the love/hope aspect. Because that IS what God is about - especially since He gave us Jesus.

Personally, I think Hell is more for us Christians to worry about, because it is our responsibility to share the Word with others, and if we do not live up to our responsibility, then we have to answer for the soul that does not join us in Heaven. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Re: new title new title new title lol #242075 04/27/06 10:07 PM
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You're welcome, Bella. You are a credit to Christians everywhere to focus on the love aspect. In the end, that's what it's all about.


Darling Poor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242076 04/28/06 03:41 AM
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Quote:
But if Mankind was given Free Will, the power of choice and discernment, then... isn't it an easy way of copping out of the responsibility of ones' actions to say, both "I was Guided by God" or "I was tempted by the Devil"... ?
Doesn't this offer an explanation for a decision which was based entirely on Human Voluntary thought process?


I wanted to address this myself...

Lucifer was God's right hand angel. he was the most beautiful and most honored among the angels. God loved him the most. He was the only angel God gave free will. Then God decided to create people. he also decided to give them free will. The one thing he had given Lucifer that He hadn't given to the other angels.

Lucifer was mad. He was indignant. He was out of his mind jealous when God anounced that he loved poeple more than the angels and that the angels were to minister to the people. Lucifer could feel these emotions because he could choose to feel them. His sin is pride and it was the first sin. Sin is disobediance to God. When Lucifer decided to follow his feelings, he fell into disobediance.

Satan's greatest weapon is to make us think we are intelligent, artiulate, and almost as all knowing as God. We've got it figured out! He laughs when we question God's Word. he rolls on the floor wiht tears streaming in hysterical laughter when we decide we know more than God. And he wins when we decide we don't need God. Picture him standing right next to you whispering in your ear convincing you that these are only your thoughts and he had nothing to do with it. In fact he's not even sure that he even really exists...

The very basis of your arguement (on this subject) is buried in Satans logic.

The beauty of small children is that they trust us. period. no questions asked. They love us we love them and they trust us. They belive what we tell them and they obey or face consequences. It's the same for us with God. either we trust that because he loves us unconditionally even when we stink to high heaven with our sins and our pride and super intelligence, or we suffer the consequences. We can carry the worlds yoke or we can trade it in for His. we can be responsible for every [censored] thing here on this miserable planet ( violence, pedofilia, rape, murder, pornography, theft, robbery, road rage etc) or we can give the [censored] where it belongs, right in the lap of Satan.

Every sin is rooted in pride. Even Buddah thought this too I think, right, what comes around goes around? karma? You get what you give...?

It's the same, in a way. If you give up your hold over your own life and letting your pride die on the cross with Christ, giving your life over to the Lord, then what you get back is blessing ten fold. Just like Job. Refusing to curse God in the middle of his disaster, God restored him ten fold.

Fruit of the Spirit : Joy Peace Happiness Love acceptance (for yourself and others) some little known fruits - patience, respect, admiration, long lasting friendships and reconciled relationships... plus the knowledge that no matter what is going on in your life you can handle it because God will never give us more than we can handle.

And of course, eternal life with God instead of eternal life without Him... stay with somone who loves you or with someone who despises you... your choice.

PS I did a book review on a wonderful book called "God's Assasins" In this book is the best description of Satan's feelings toward us... here is the link to the review...

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35691.asp

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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242077 04/28/06 05:41 AM
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Quote:


Every sin is rooted in pride. Even Buddah thought this too I think, right, what comes around goes around? karma? You get what you give...?



No, because the Buddha did not subscribe to the idea of Sin....
He taught that whatever is thought, said or done, is what it is, it is only our perception which labels it so....
For example, even in America, some states have a much lower age of consent than others... those with higher ages of consent think a low age of consent is immoral and unacceptable...But those with a low age of consent think the opposite. Nobody can therefore say what is right and what is wrong. It's just what the person thinks of "it", that makes "it" sinful or otherwise.....

As shakespeare so eloquently put it (and just where did HE pick this up?)

"There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242078 04/28/06 06:43 AM
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

- Epicurus (341 - 270 BC)

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242079 04/28/06 03:11 PM
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I am willing and able to walk around with my 3 yr old and keep him from making and doing all sorts of things that will keep him from getting hurt. However, he will never learn not to do these things unless he makes the mistakes and gets hurt from time to time (like jumping on his bed when I've told him "no" - he falls off and bumps his elbow). That mistake experience is a much better teacher than me protecting him from everything in the world.

God is much the same way. He could protect us from everything - but then we would never grow. We would never build character, we would never be able to empathize with someone in need.

Free will - man chose sin in the beginning, and we have the choice everyday as to whether to take it or leave it. Just becasue it's there doesn't mean we have to be part of it.


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Oh, I buy the bit about Choice. I buy the bit about Free Will. I buy the bit about consequences, of doing good and not doing good...

I just cannot buy the "God" bit.

Any creator who can "answer prayers" and heal little Tommy of a terrible illness, but can then permit a disaster like the tsunami or Hurricane Katrina to kill countless thousands is what I cannot swallow.

I'm sorry.
I think I should leave it there.
I am straying into areas I promised i would try to avoid...
If anyone would like to continue this theological discussion, in this vein, I have created a new thread in the Buddhist forum...

("Discussion on A supreme Being, Higher Power, God")

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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242082 04/28/06 06:41 PM
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Alexandra,
I hope you don't mind me responding to your above past two posts, since you wanted to take the discussion to another forum.
This is the "Bible Basics" forum and why we answer discussions from the Bible point of view.
In regard to God allowing evil, I call this the "God-Blaming Syndrome" but am not accussing you of this! I just want to point out that this very same argument, is the reason so many people cannot accept God. How can a God, allow the evils, sufferings, etc.., we see in the world??
If I may repeat what the Bible says about it, on this Bible forum, it might possibly, at least shed some light.
God gave man-woman, complete authority over the creation (Gen 3) and at the same time, free choice to accept or reject him (De 30:14-18, Gen 2:17 & 3:4-50). When they chose sin (evil) over God, THEY WERE THE ONES who brought evil into the world, sickness, disease, disasters etc...
Some ask; "Why didn't God create them incapable of choosing evil? Because God wanted children who would accept him by choice and not robots who were required to. Had already had angles created to serve, mankind was created to be family, who would serve God and one another, out of love.
God cannot break covenant and he gave his Word that man had dominion and choice.
Do I believe there is symbolism used in the Genesis account of evil entering man's world? Possibly, yes, but if you think about it, it would be an incredible task, to describe these events in a way that is understandable to mankind, from the beginning, forward.
The fact is, it was man, in association with satan (yes he is called satan & the devil, repeatedly in Bible scripture), that brought the sickness, disease, death, calamities, disasters, wars, etc..............
God has offered redemption from this but that doesn't mean we will be immuned to it (Mt 5:45).
The very fact that we see a difference between good and evil (people rejecting God because of evil), proves that these two things do indeed exist. There is the ridiculous argument that evil is relevant to each person but if you accept that view, you cannot reject God because if. << You didn't imply that, I just wanted to include that point.
John 10:10 "The thief (satan-devil) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy; I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
The scipture shows the contrast between God's works & purposes and those of evil. Another scripture states that Jesus came to destroy the "works of the devil".
God does not perform the evil, he is bringing it to an end!

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242083 04/28/06 06:46 PM
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Typo correction in above post:
Sorry, meant to say "There is the ridiculous argument that evil is relevant to each person but if you accept that view, YOU CANNOT REJECT GOD BECAUSE OF IT."

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242084 04/28/06 07:10 PM
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Thank you for the patience and perseverance shown in responding to my post...However, in a private prior discussion with the BibleBasix moderator, I agreed, by virtue of the fact that this is a Christian forum on which she moderates, and through a set of guidelines constructed by her, which were mandatory for being permitted to continue, I cannot in all honesty freely express my point of View here without offending her principles. This would make me feel uncomfortable.
In view of this, I decided to open up a separate thread in which to continue this discussion, with no holds barred (save those I posted in my first post there, which I don't think anyone would either disagree with, or fail to comply with anyway....!) I am not intending to bring this discussion to a halt, single-handedly, But I also think that it has either run its course, or gone off-topic.... or indeed, both.
Thank you all once again for having the consideration and courtesy to come back to me on this... I will be sure to continue observing this thread, and contribute, providing I don't step on toes... I would welcome you all to the other discussion.

Last edited by Alexandra; 04/28/06 07:13 PM.
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Well, if things like natural disasters can run someone away from God and their faith, I would have to say they are in big trouble when the end finally comes and the anti-christ has free reign on this earth...

better start stock piling food now, because the state of the world is going to get much worse.

it's too bad that people can't seem to give Christianity the respect they demand for their own religious beliefs. But that has been my experience.

In her first couple of posts in the Buddhist forum where she would like to continue her discussion, she claims that she has never met Christians who are so fired up (not a direct quote) about the Bible as here in America. Good! Who wants to be luke warm anyway?


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242086 04/29/06 04:21 PM
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Jenna,I too hope I am often accused of being fired up!

Rom 8:18 "..the sufferings of this present life are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us."

I Cor 15:24-26 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enimies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

God allows evil to run its course because of man's disobediance but Praise God, all evil, suffering and death, will be eliminated forever in the future!

Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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Edited by Alexandra.
inappropriate response.

Oh, hush my mouth - !! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Alexandra; 04/29/06 07:16 PM.
Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242088 04/29/06 08:06 PM
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We'll go along with that wish!
Now let's see if you can really do it!

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Count yourself lucky I had the consideration to come back and edit. if that isn't respect I don't know what is...

When you are able to speak about my spiritual practise with as much authority as I am able to speak on Christianity, I will look forward to having a more constructive and encompassing discussion with you.
until then, show some courtesy.

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Read my post on the other thread, it and this one, are my last to you.
You have shown no authoritative knowledge about Christianity and the Bible, whatsoever.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242091 04/30/06 05:21 AM
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Jimlow,

Let's just recognize and shake the dust from our sandals so to speak...

I agree with the comments you made about the suffering in this world being only temporary and that we can look forward to eternity with the Lord where all our tears will be wiped away.

One question that I like to raise is this:

Where do we want to spend eternity? Because we WILL spend eternity somewhere... in the city gates or outside the city gates?

I'm so grateful that my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that I cry for those who are not accounted for yet. Christ came to everyone not just a select few. All of us are God's children. Our only job is to love all God's children no matter how obstinate they behave. I'm not called to evangelize the way some are. I'm not even called to teach or preach. I am not called to judge but being judgemental is my thorn in my side. I am only called to love. Love the Lord my God with all my heart and soul and mind; and to love everyone the way the Lord loves me. Sometimes I fall short but that is because I'm human, but my prayers are for all people to feel the sense of security and peace and acceptance that I feel within the arms of the Lord. Some people are hard for us to understand let alone love, and thats where I just let go and let the Lord.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242092 05/22/06 11:57 PM
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Hi i noticed that some of your post dont have anything to say why is that? and how do you stop it from deleting what you have wrote? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. judge not lest ye be judged.
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Hi freebubbles! I'm not sure if Freespirit will be back on here or not, so I'll go ahead and answer for her (forgive me, Freespirit if I say this wrong.)

But she had come to a place with her own spiritual beliefs that did not neccessarily coincide with these on this board, nor did she want to cause any disruptions with anyone, so she opted to delete all of her previous posts and refrain from joining in on any more religious discussions.

She's keeping her spiritual beliefs on a much more personal level now.


Michelle Taylor
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oh ok I thought that it was a computer glich or something


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242095 05/23/06 02:06 AM
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God gave man free will. Does this not mean we freely choose what we believe or not. and that we must face those choices and the repercations of it?

Dont you find it funny how many people say the devil made me do it or its not my fault the devil....

I dont personaly believe the devil has that much power over me or anyone...but my free will and lack of knowlegde sure would effect how i made choses and that would be my own fault not God.. not the devil..not any one else


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242096 05/23/06 02:09 AM
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just one more queastion. who has the greatest power over man? God/the devil/ or mans free will? explane


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242097 05/23/06 04:10 AM
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Thankyou Michelle for explaining for me as you expained me well! lol....

I was going through a very hard stage spiritually 5 weeks ago or so (when I deleted all those posts)Its still hard for me to talk about but I am slowley getting there.

I just thought It would be best for me to take a back seat and just observe and learn from others then maybee I will be able to have more of an input.

Thanks again <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242098 05/24/06 07:36 AM
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Hi Free Spirit nice to see you. Are you doing better now? how can i help? defferance a side of coure!!lol


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242099 05/24/06 10:54 AM
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Hello Freebubbles Yes i am doing much better now thankyou for asking,Thanks for offering to help but I guess this type of thing has to be done by self (well for me anyway)
Where abouts in Texas do you come from? Texas is h-u-g-e! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242100 05/24/06 06:39 PM
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you know the part of Texas that is closest to Ok and NM Im about 15 mile from both in a town no one has heard of population is about 300 or so or i was 2 years ago i moved 70 miles to Amarillo (you may have heard the song by Groege Strait AMARILLO BY MORNING) it on I40 and Highway 287 and I27 if you travel on those.


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242101 05/25/06 09:00 PM
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Cool Freebubbles,Sounds like a cute little town.Is it like desert? I have heard texas is quite flat? Also I have heard it is quite unlike the rest of america. I am looking forward to going there anyway.We are hiring a car when we get over there and we will be doing alot of driving.

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right now we are in a drought and could use the rain!!! any way where i am at it is very flat but there is asome cayons close by about 20-30 miles NE from amarillo and the is Palo duro canyan too about 15mile SW i think. we have grass trees and some rivers too. we have a saying "If you dont like the weather stay 10 min. and it will change." and that is true the wind blows then it stops it can go from 15mph to95 in one hours and back again. we have tornados and get the after shocks of husacain weather. tahts what brings the rain sometimes and thunder/ lighting stowms.
i dont thing we are that different form any other state in America but i have not traveled far out of tx eather. I did live in Arazona and has a tendence to say in America when talking to the Navajo/Hopi but i think that was because there is a real differnce between the reservations and amreican. the have there own goverment laws...


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242103 05/30/06 04:58 AM
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I am really looking forward to visiting texas it is deffinatley going on our intenneary.

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i hope you like it!!!


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I have heard alot of "interesting" things about texas so I am sure to be entertained when I get there

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I have wondered this. If you go by the Bible, the children of Adam and Eve would have had to have sex. It would have been incest. It is a silly idea, of course, and the mythological nature of Genesis becomes apparent. I profess Christianity nonetheless.

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Didnt the bible say cain was band from the garden and cast out then found a wife from the land of Nun or Nod? I wonder were they came from?


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242108 06/09/06 11:37 AM
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Hmmm the mind just boggles dosent it???? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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The Hebrew People were great story tellers, and they taught by parables.

I don't believe that these stories were meant to be taken literally. They were intended to show us the way to live, and to love and respect God. In every story told in Genesis there is a lesson to be learned, and to look for logic in writings which were based on faith and spiritual values is like looking at the food on your plate and trying to figure out where it came from without bothering to taste and eat it! It is like studying a tree instead of looking beyond to the magnificent forest in which it grows.

In any spiritual writing, you have to look beyond the words, beyond the 'story' and find the real treasure that lies hidden within the message.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242110 06/15/06 09:11 PM
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The problem is when the texts are taken literally and how some people intepret ceartian religious texts to suit their own agendas.

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I belive this:

God created Adam and Eve... words meaning man and woman...

Then when they had children, which he created, they were perfect people...

the fear of incest has always been disease and birth defects from imperfection of the species, but if hte species were perfect, we wouldn't have that fear?

If we didn't know it was wrong, in effect, that it wasn;t wrong as we know it to be wrong now, and we were perfectly created, why would it be gross?

I think of course they did... they had to!


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242112 06/19/06 09:41 AM
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but Cain was kick out of Gods presence and found a wife in the land of NOD if he found a wife there where did she come from? did an angle volenteer to become human and be Cains wife? i cant rap my mind around an angle giveing up her place in heaven and imortality to be a murders wife! so that begs the thought maybe the angles thet fell with satin became human not demons which would make earch a liveing hell and while i can believe earch is liveing hell it would be hard to explane satin tempting eve as a snake in the garden if he was human and it would be hard for people to use satic as a scapegoat (the devil made me do it) if he was human and there for mortal and died years ago. of course there is the issue of the Scottish Highlanders and imortal vamipers and such from popular movies but thats a whole new ball game.
then there is the idea that eve had daughter but because they where girls not record and one of cains sisters left with him but still...the presents of GOD ALmighty in all His splinder and she choices to go into the great unknown with a man that killed her brother? that dont gel either... so is there other gods that made people too? and if there is not then why did God say I AM A JELOUS GOD YOU SHALL HAVE NO GODS BEFORE ME? of couse this could be ment as personal gods like money sex drugs and personal greed and selfishness!!! so maybe God made other people out side of EDEN? but why would he not let them be in pasadise with adom and eve? Did He have a specail project or test to see what would happen to atom and eve or did He already know that adom and eve would fail and eat the apple and if so would not that be mean to curse the whole race with pain and suffering when He knewn adom and eve would fail. after all He did make them so would nt it be just as much His fail for giveing eve and adom free will but not enough self control?


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No, an angel did not become cains wife. The Bible doesn't state how or why, it just states that he did. I guess you'll have to ask God when you see Him... I already answered this question for you above...<img src="/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by BiblBasixEditor; 06/20/06 03:23 AM.

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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242114 06/21/06 06:39 AM
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sorry i meant no offence. i was just thinking out loud sorta speak. why do i seem to irratate chirstians with my questions when they are good questions? and just questions! im not trying to convert anyone in to my religion haha im chirstian!!! i just wondered what others thought and i know you already answered. queit nicely too. but i thought others my like to give it a go.


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Some christians dont like to many questions asked....Silly really isint it? That is why I like buddhism so much because unlike christianity you are encouraged to ask questions and explore your spirituality.

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freebubbles, i think you may have heard some of the stories of "Nephilim" - the angels which were supposedly caught between heaven and earth when Lucifer was cast out and God shut heaven to all of lucifer's followers.

I believe the story of the nephilim to be a myth because God would have known which angels were involved w/ lucifer and would not have accidentally left some outside of heaven.

Also, as far as women angels - I do not recall any being mentioned in the Bible, in fact I only remember two being mentioned by name - Michael and Gabriel, and then two other men (no names) in conjunction with Lot in Sodom and Gomorrha.

But in actuallity I believe angels to be neither male nor female. They were not created as we were. I believe it is in the revelations that the Seraphim and Cherabim are described; and they are not human sounding at all! I believe the angels that have appeared to humans have looked human in order to be comforting and familiar (after all, it would be a scary enough visit as it were!)

In the Bible when it refers to sons and daughters of God, and sons and daughters of man; I think (and many Biblical scholars) think this refers to the saved and unsaved.

These are just some things I have come to in studying; but I don't figure I'll know for sure until I get to Heaven! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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freebubbles,

You in no way irritate me with your qiestions, I just wasn't sure you saw my previous post about what I thought is all... not thatit's the end all answer, I was just wondering...:)


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freespirit,

i actually enjoy questions about what I believe. it reinforces my faith to have to search my heart for why I believe what I do.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Thats great - Its just that there are alot of christians that dont but its good to see your not one of them

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ok i never thought that angles where humanish or male or female, but there is a passage that talks about angles taking human wifes and makeing Gaints like goliath iwill have to find the referince but i know it somewhere in there!!! how elses would you get gaints?

Bella you forgot Danaille. Raghiall, and Urial. but i have never heard or Nephillim. all the Angles i have heard of are the Gardeans of north south eart and west (revalations) and they all have---ial meaning messageger of God..


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I think thats why i have a hard time believeing that Cain took a female angle to be his wife...they all appear as men!!!


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who is Nephilim?
i wanna hear a story!!! tell me a story!!! please pretty please!!! lol gee no cable tv and just barnie to watch all day yeepee AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


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You can read about them here:

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Posts: 7,189
An interesting book to read (although totaly fiction) is Madeleine L'Engle's "Many Waters" which is about the twin borhters of Meg Murray from "A Wrinkle in Time" (probably her best known novel).

But it deals with the twins going back in time to just before the great flood happened. And they just happen to land in with Noah and his family.

Madame L'Engle obviously uses the Bible (and probably the Apocrypha - some books of the Bible recognized by the Catholic church, but not by all Protestant churches) as a source for her book, as well as her own imagination. But it gives you a really neat feel for what it might have been like back then.

This is the time period just before the Nephilim were supposedly wiped out. And they do feature in the book. It is very neat. Although, like I said, fictional.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242125 07/02/06 05:54 AM
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freebubbles2 Offline
Shark
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Jenna wow you got the sourses dont you!!! I'll check them all out!!!
Michelle, Would the book be in a liberary or is it a new release?


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242126 07/02/06 11:29 AM
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Chelle - Marriage Editor Offline
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Chimpanzee
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Chimpanzee
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Oh yes, it should definitely be in a library.

It is oftentimes part of a compilation with "A Wrinle in Time" and a couple of other stories about the Murray family.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242127 07/03/06 04:07 AM
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freebubbles2 Offline
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Cool ill try to check it out!!!


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
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