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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242032 04/23/06 06:07 AM
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Alexandra Offline
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There is a vast difference between 'Moderation' and 'Censorship'... in a world where we delight in the privilege of Free Speech (unlike other countries such as Burma, China and Nepal) the active participation of contributors to a frank and open discussion should be viewed with an open mind.
Randomly going through posts and editing them at will is not Mindful or skilful Moderation. It's censorship, just because you don't like the content.
There is a difference between Moderating, and Editing because of your personal beliefs. The two should not become blurred or overlap...
Whilst I will accept that offence may have been caused, and that I should apologise for personal remarks made against TexasDave4 - I do so to him, not you. This has nothing to do with you, and should not be subject to your interference.
As I have already told you, he and I have resolved our differences, and now communicate as and when the occasion arises.
Your moderating of this affair should have consisted of merely contacting us both and asking us to keep our differences off forum. This would be the appropriate procedure for anybody engaging in such exchanges.

You see, I too am a Moderator of long standing on another forum. And woe betide me if I permit my personal opinion to interfere with the freedom of others, if all they are doing is engaging in lively debate.
It's simply not done.
Theological discussion broadens the mind and can educate and enlighten. To expect everyone to come onto this forum and adhere to your personally imposed rules and regulations is both short-sighted and unreasonable. Where discussion is animated, lively and diverse, what gives you the right to censor others, simply because you disagree with them?

If this post is edited or moderated in any way, I will complain to the forum administrators.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242033 04/23/06 07:56 AM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242034 04/25/06 12:34 AM
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JimLow Offline
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The Bible is a "revelation", not an "explanation". Jesus explained why God does not reveal everything, in Mark 4:11-12 and Matthew 7:6.
In Genesis 5:1-2, some believe, it reveals that there were more than one set of male & female because it refers to God calling "their" name Adam (maybe Adam & Eve combined?) which they believe refers to other Adams, possibly representing other races. It also says that when God banquished Cain, he went into the land of Nod, there having relations with his wife and concieving Enoch (Gen 4:16-17). They believe Cain's wife was from the other original sets of people.
My belief is that all peoples came from the one set; Adam & Eve. You have to consider though that lifespans were in excess of 900 years in those first generations of people, so that age differences in those who married would be what we now would consider generations apart. This would make them seem more like distant cousins that siblings.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242035 04/25/06 01:49 AM
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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242036 04/25/06 05:22 AM
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Alexandra Offline
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This would seem to bear out my post (#3) of this thread) that some stories are simply a means of attempting to explain something which in fact nobody actually knows anything about.
When solid concrete, indisputable scientifically-researched data and information tells us that life spans have been steadily increasing during the existence of Mankind, due to the gradual, evolving capacity of this species to improve its lot in Life, it is absolute fantasy to give any credence to these vast ages purportedly reached by these characters, given that the life expectancies due to disease, malnutrition and lifestyle were in fact vastly inferior to those experienced today....Even in our lifetime (when I was a girl) if someone reached the age of 75 or 80, they had done pretty well.... Nowadays, people are seeking to continue employment into their sixties and seventies, and dying at a similar age is considered still 'young'....A reasonable figure is around the ninety mark....!
TexasDave's post (#2) can only be pure hypothesis, to say the very least....there is absolutely no other documented evidence in existence anywhere else which gives credence or support to his statements.
I think him to be a devout Christian, and his belief and persistent, constant referral to Jesus Christ in virtually every post he writes, is admirable, I daresay.... But Leading Theologians and Biblical experts - many of them Men of God themselves - have repeatedly indicated that such matters should be taken with a pinch of salt.
It is one thing to be devoted to ones' God...It is quite another to simply accept an account of happenings at face value, when there is not a single shred of evidence to support their veracity.

I am not seeking to question nor criticise peoples' individual beliefs in God, nor to ridicule or trivialise their faith: What I am saying is that some common sense has to be brought into play here....

Jim's post, for example, does much to attempt to provide a viable explanation of these accounts.... TD4's contribution is at odds with this.... So it would seem that even those who adhere to what they are presented with Biblically, are unable to agree... But the facts given do not stand up to scrutiny.

If you attempt to take every single word of the Bible as concrete fact and as an indisputable account of events as they occurred...Then God HAS to be moving the Goalposts at his own convenience, and playing some terrible and cruel tricks on his own creation.... This in a mortal-level human-based situation, would be regarded quite simply as despotic, unbalanced and frankly outrageous.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242037 04/25/06 04:50 PM
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JimLow Offline
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I mean no disrespect to anyone in saying this but "intellectualizing" some things, does not bring out the truth about them. Those who choose to accept those things we cannot always intellectualize do so by "faith" however, that does not mean it is a blind faith.
Faith doesn't come at all unless a person has a true experience that produces that faith.
Some don't understand this and hate to even hear it said because they are angry at the very concept of God because they feel somehow cheated in life. This brings about the lambasting of those who do have faith.
The fact is, some of the most intelligent people who ever lived, also had/have faith in God and the Bible.
There is no possible way we can intellectually explain that faith or transmit it to others. It is a personal experience that happens but is as real and more so than anything else that person has ever experienced.
Mankind fancies their selves as being highly intelligent and understanding all things when in reality, we know very little (a virtual drop in the bucket).
I don't believe for one moment that resentment toward someone who has faith, by someone else, is because they feel it is non-intelligent to believe but most likely because they resist anything they can't grasp with intelligence. If you struggle with faith from an intellectual standpoint, it is understandable how very frustrating that would be.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242038 04/25/06 06:21 PM
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Alexandra Offline
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Very well said, Jim... I see your point and can understand where you are coming from....
I would hope that you are not accusing me of lambasting anyone with regard to the faith they hold.. I already stated on more than one occasion that I find those whose faith and belief is solid, admirable, and for them to remain steadfast is commendable.
What I cannot support are those who in the face of undeniable evidence, still insist on practising Blind Faith.... and I have accused nobody here of doing so, even though I have disputed the presentation of certain matters as factual.....They simply do not stand up to scrutiny, but it is not I who has worked to get to the bottom and origin of these writings...Others have done so, far more capably, and doubtless will continue to do so.
As I further mentioned in my original post - it little matters what the Old testament tells us... the important texts for our time are those found in the Gospels of the New Testament....Jesus Christ's central message, whatever one may think of the bible as a chronological document (factual or otherwise) is the one to take note of....

Just by way of an explanation, I am an Italian Roman Catholic, was convent-educated, and served as a Parent Governor at my daughters' Roman Catholic Dioscesian Primary School, in the U.K. for nearly five years.
so I do have some indication of what it is to both practise a christian religion devotedly, and what it means to have faith and belief....I further have some knowledge of Biblical matters.
I am now 49.
I hope you would agree by the timbre of my posts that I am not incoherent or unintelligent, and I put a great deal of thought and consideration into my forum contributions here....
So it is not without a great degree of thought, consideration and - yes, soul-searching - that I eventually put what I was unable to reconcile myself to, aside.
I am a practising and devoted Buddhist now, and believe me - for me - This is definitely the better, more satisfying, and yet completely demanding path to follow.
I enjoy discussions of this calibre enormously, and inspite of my declining my catholic religious background in favour of another course, wholeheartedly respect, admire and support the desire of others to follow God as devoted worshippers.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242039 04/25/06 07:14 PM
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greenspice Offline
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Yes, but what about evolution? Is it against Christian teaching, or can it be accepted as part of a Christian God's work? Surely scientific evidence is proof?

Jane


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Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242040 04/25/06 07:28 PM
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JimLow Offline
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"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason" (Ben Franklin).
No, I was being general and not accusing you but would like to add below:
The number of people from highly intellectual backgrounds, who Believe in the God of the Bible is huge. I'll start with famous Scientists, then will go on to famous Astonauts (Bible was read to the world viewing audience on the Apollo missions.)
Bible/God Believing Scientists:
John Philoponus
Hugh of St. Victor
Robert Grosseteste
Roger Bacon
Dietrich von Frieberg
Thomas Bradwardine
Nicole Oresme
Nicholas of Cusa
Georgias Agricola
Johannes Kepler
Johannes Baptista van Helmont
Francesco Maria Grimaldi
Blaise Pascal
Robert Boyle
John Ray
Isaac Barrow
Antonie van Leeuwenhoek
Niels Seno
James Bradley
Ewald Georg von Kleist
Carolus Linnaeus
Leonhard Euler
John Dalton
Thomas Young
David Brewster
William Buckland
Adem Sedgwick
Augustin-Jean Fresnel
Augustin Louis Cauchy
Michael Faraday
John Frederick William Herschel
Matthew Fontaine Maury
Philip Henry Gosse
Asa Gray
James Dwight Dana
George Boole
James Prescott Joule
John Couch Adams
George Gabriel Stokes
Gregor Mendel
Bible/God Believing Astronauts
Buzz Aldrin (Apollo 11)
James Benson Erwin ( Colonel USAF Apollo 15)
Charles Moss Duke Jr. (Brigidare General USAF Apollo 16)

Again, I'm being general but some non-believers try to perpetuate the idea that only a few un-informed, oldfashioned, non-intellectuals believe in the God of the Bible but this is far from the truth. I'm, barely scratching the surface with these listed. There are Entertainers from movies, music etc..., some you would not even suspect that are also believers in the God of the Bible.
The "intellectual" argument was not enough to dissuade them.
Just thought I'd add this for interest.

Re: Did adam and eves kids have sex with each othe #242041 04/25/06 07:49 PM
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Just my opinion of course but evolution DOES NOT have the scientific proof behind it that is claimed. I do believe the fossil record etc..., does have proof for an extremely ancient earth but the evolution of species, into other species is a false theory.
Instead of going into the endless aspects of each side of this argument, can I just mention a couple of common sense things?
In the theory of evolution, it doesn't just claim man cam from apes but starts with single cells, then more complicated cells, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, tree dwelling mammals, apes and then man. Of course I condensed this and there were many other in-betweens, including different stages of man.
Here's the common sense questions; 1. If we deveoped from these species as did many other species (lizards to birds etc..), then why do all of these pre-species still exist???? Why if man came from apes, are the apes still here? Why so many species of apes and monkeys still here, from 600lb gorillas, down to spider-monkeys you can hold in the palm of your hand? Does this mean there are literally millions of stages of evolution, continually in motion? If this were true, why did it stop at man, as the final result? If perpetual evolution was actually happening and starting over and over again, you would have a huge number of in-betweens and not the jumps from one to the other. For example if lizards are still becoming birds, where are the hundreds and hundres of slight change-species??? Where are the different stages of scales turning into feathers. There should be some lizards out there with .001 percent feathers, to 99.009 perent scales and on up the scale!! The same true with all the others, which means the earth would be a complete mess, full of in-between species at every different stage.
Do you see the problem with evolution? This argument IS NOT SILLY, is has as much validity as any other question that could be asked about evolution!

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