BellaOnline Forums Family Moms Ranting: Children Should be Seen and Not Heard???

The zealots on the CF forum slay me. Children shouldn't be allowed in restaurants, shopping malls or anywhere a CF person might accidentally be exposed to the little terrors. Bah! Exactly how do they expect children to learn how to act in these places if they're not exposed to them?

Children are not pets--you don't crate them up for the day when you have to go out and you don't leash and muzzle them (well, okay, you can leash them) in public. Neither are children little dolls that sit perfectly quiet and unobtrusive.

I have friends who are CF thruogh choice and others who are CF for medical or other reasons. NONE of them wish to live in a world secluded from children; and when they want a completely child free day/night out, they have no problem finding one.

And the continuing "breeders" comments. Oooh...

Lynn:

You are right, I find them offensive as well. I will just leave it as ignorance.

as a childfree woman I would just like to clarify something...A "breeder" is a person who should never have had children.
I would never call that name to a parent.

Its not that childfree people want to be segregated form children its just that well for me personally I get sick of breeders who cannot control their children in a public place.If my husband and I go to a quality resturant we do not want our night ruined by screeming brats and usually the breeders think their kids are just being cute but they are NOT.

Is it not to much to ask for them to control their children? This would not have happened years ago...Children were raised alot better then. Pretty soon we will see a society filled with the dregs of society raised by loosers who just wanted a meal ticket. I think we are seeing that in society now but its going to get alot worse still.

I really admire the people who have children and put 100 percent into raising them right.It really is the hardest job in the world. I am lucky I am free to live my life the way I want to and am so glad that will never be me but thats just me.

I read the original article on the CF board - and i posted about it. There are some parent that are truly uncaring about how their children behave when they are out in public. Or anywhere, from the way it seems! I am shocked at the language and lack of respect that some kids are allowed to get away with these days. And if parents don't teach it to their children, then their children don't show it to other adults either.

But then it's like some of the CFers just have it in for all children! And any woman that actually chooses to have children has no brain cells left (and heaven forbid any of us actually choose to stay home with our children! You'd think we'd had a lobotomy)

I mean really, Freespirit. Is it not a bit duplicitous to come on here and say that you admire Moms for the job we do, and then go make a post on the CF board that mocks us? The titles of those posts DO show up on the main listing, and when it's talking about a subject that all of us have already been embroiled in, we're gonna look at it! <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have read a few of the posts and decided not to read or comment anymore on it on their site. It is their opinions and their site. I have enough to be stressed about without reading them. I have wondered about the titles on the forum. I don't know if people without kids understand that sometimes no matter what you do, you can't control your child from being upset in public. Somedays are just like that. Children are like everyone else and have [censored] days. It embarrasses me when they act up, but I need things like groceries so I can't lock myself in the house and never leave. I try to handle it with as little stress on everyone in the store and the kids. I do not take my kids to eat after a certain time at night, to certain places to eat or to adult movies because I know it is not a place for kids. But I had a greeter act weird towards us at Walmart the other day because we were trying to get our daughter to sit in the front of the buggy. She is 2. I guess he thought we were suppose to beat her into the seat instead of telling her calmly we were not moving until she sat down. I guess the point is people are going to judge you no matter what you do. Just do your best and make good adults.

There are some cruel people out there that have 0 patience. I wish everyone had patience....

There are alot of inpatient people out there I know...But there are some people out there with "little horrors" who let them run riot with no consideration for other people and this is wrong.

There are many (notice I didint say all) people with children who have no clue and are to lazy to raise them right and we as a society are starting to see society breakdown because of it.

I feel sorry for all the decent parents out there trying the best they can and doing a bloody good job raiaing their children with love and care and then they get to school and they mix with the "ferals" who are a bad inflence on the children who otherwise would not go off the rails - its always been this way but over the last 10 years or so it has gotten alot worse.

Some children are adorable and I love interacting with them when I'm out. Some are not.

Just like grown-ups. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm CF and I enjoy the company of children. However when I go to an "adult" place such as an expensive restaurant- one that is dimly lit and requires dress attire, I would like to dine in a quiet atmosphere. When I attend an evening movie or play or concert I don't want to hear children scream.

I know that when I travel by plane there will be children some of them well behaved and some of them not. Believe or not a screaming child on a plane does not bother me. That child and his parents need to be on that flight. I understand the situation. However a baby does not "need" to be at a 9pm showing of an R-rated movie.

I know several parents who share these views. I have heard many of my friends complain about how they paid for a baby sitter for a nice evening on the town and saw another couple bring a crying baby or active toddler to a quality restaurant.

Very true...I have seen people bring their kids to the most innapropriate places... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes Horse Crazy....So true some children are not the best to interact with are they? and yes just like you say - just like some adults.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I take my children to the theatre, to symphonies, to museums, to fine restaurants, etc. Children need this exposure in order to learn to value these experiences and to learn what is appropriate behavior (yes, you can learn manners at home--but the lessons stick better with practice). I, as do most of my parenting friends, choose early times, matinees and performances that are specifically scheduled for families--out of concern for our own children.

As has been mentioned by other parents elsewhere, if you are not enjoying your experience you have several options--you can choose to ignore the behavior, you can comment to management, you can comment to the parents, or you can take your business elsewhere. The same applies to the parent with the well behaved child who is on the receiving end of nasty "breeder" and "moo" comments made by anti-child couples nearby.

I would ceartinally never use the term "breeder" to a decent responsible parent and anybody that does that is sick in my opinion.But I will call an irresponsible person who should never have had kids a breeder because that is what they are...

If I were at a resturant for example and I saw a child running rampant and genearally spoiling my dining experience I usually have a gental word to the parents and if this does not work I go straight to management.

This has happened to me in the past unfourtunatley and I spoke to the parent (breeder) and she was very rude to me telling me to mind my own buisness and said her kid was just being a child - said child walked up to our table and blew our candle out then proceded to run around the resturant like it was a playground.

the parent actually encouraged her child to "play" just to [censored] me off so I went to management and had a word and explained the situation to which he asked the "lady" to control her child or leave...She made a real big fuss and the whole place by now was staring at the feral.Her husband was like a frightened little rabbit! he went along with everything she said....Anyway she got up with her brat and her poor husband and walked out and was told never to come back again.

If children are qwell behaved by all means its okay to bring them to a classy resturant but if not let them go to burger king where they belong.

As this is a support board for moms, I take exception to the use of the term "feral breeder" or "breeder" in your posts, freespirit.

You are, however, quite right in your method of handling the situation and its good that you handled the situation calmly.

I appoligise for offending anybody here but I will not appoligise for what I said.

I have previousley stated I have the upmost resect for parents who raise their children right and you all deserve praise.

I use the terms "breeder" and "feral breeder" to people out there who do not raise their children right.Baisically they should not have had them and we all know there are plenty of people out there like this...

It breaks my heart to see children suffering from neglect e.c.t and these people that had them for god knows what reason are taking out their frustrations on the poor innocent children....

I am getting off topic here - the point is I will not go back on what I said and this is NOT directed to you parents out there who love their children and raise them right.Parents have my full respect and admiration.You guys do the hardest job in the world when it is done right.

Hi, we can't decide or predetermine the intelligence level or present coping ability of parents. Perfectly capable parents lose out to stress, and often. We have also "banished" segregation. I think the best we can hope for is enlightenment along the way. For those around us and most importantly ourselves. We do not have separate worlds. We share one.

Many people would look at my situation (without knowing all the facts) and judge either me or my child.

One of us must be to blame for the fact that Michael struck out at me. It would probably be me: I was too lenient raising him, i didn't discipline him enough, I spoiled him. OR some would say I went the other extreme; I must have been abusive to him, I was too strict, I didn't care about him and let him raise himself.

Very few people would see the truth of the matter: that i am a Mom dealing with a special needs child. That I have done the very best I can. I do not let Michael run wild, as a matter of fact my life would be much easier if I didn't discipline Michael - but how is he ever to learn acceptable behavior if I don't? (And by discipline I mean grounding, no computer, TV, video games - spanking an Asperger's child is a definite no-no).

Yet even the nurses at the ER could not understand why I was not pressing charges against him - and i told them he was Asperger's (autistic for the ones that looked completely blank - I thought these people worked in the medical field) <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So looking in from the outside, a person can never know what has happened at a given time. Children are fragile, as are their emotions, and small things set them off. I would ask a little more patience of the CF community in public settings.

(Although I do agree that bringing 2 yr olds to a horror movie that is R rated is wrong!)

Okay, most people can tolerate well-behaved children. I'm one of those people. I can appreciate a child who isn't screaming and throwing stuff around. And I really love the children whose parents must have done a bang up job and have excellent manners. I recall a few children that have held open doors for people, said their "pleases" and "thank yous," and I specifically remember this one little girl who was no older than seven who noticed that I had dropped several stacks of cups (this was at my job at the movie theater) and ran over and picked them up for me. I made damn sure that I complimented both her and her mother. And believe me, that little girl made my [censored] day at my job that much better.

BUT:

It is not appropriate to allow your child to misbehave in public, period. Even worse when you do nothing to discourage bad behavior. Not everybody thinks it's cute when little Ashley starts banging the silverware on the table at a restaurant that isn't Chuck-E-Cheese or little Jimmy throws a temper tantrum in the middle of Wal-Mart because Mommy won't buy him the new GI Joe.

I'm especially not too sympathetic when I had to spend the 14 hour flight to Japan listening to two toddlers take turns squalling the entire flight. Now, I'm not an unreasonable person. I understand that the cabin pressure changes are uncomfortable and that a kid won't be too happy during take-off and landing. But having to hear a child screech and wail for 14 hours, effectively screwing me and others out of sleep? And this brings me to another point: I remember flying when I was a kid and my ears hurting horribly from the air pressure changes. That's probably downright torture for a toddler and infant. Why subject them to that?

What's even better is when the kid is doing something that can be dangerous and the parent does nothing. Then when the kid gets hurt or worse, the parent wants to scream lawsuit. There was a recent case in Pennsylvania (I think) where a woman was charged and convicted for not going into dangerous waters when she couldn't swim and save somebody else's child. She was charged because she was previously in proximity of the child and somehow, that meant she was the kid's guardian, despite the fact that she didn't know the kid and despite the fact that she previously pointed out to the kid's father that the kid was going too close into the water and brought the kid back to his father. The father apparently deemed it unimportant to watch his two-year old son, and the kid went into the water and drowned. Now the woman was sentenced to 18-months in prison for somebody else's failure to parent. How that even constitute as justice? It takes a village indeed.

It not only annoys other patrons, but it also doesn't put the parent in a good light either. It just smacks of "I'm too lazy and/or spineless to discipline my children." And if you're the parent of a special needs child who has a tendency to freak out in public, while I understand that's rough, it's not usually obvious that a kid is disabled in any way. It's not for the rest of us to bear the responsibility.

Other people pay for their meal, airplane seat, movie, etc. It's not fair to ask everybody else to ignore the child or otherwise adjust so you don't have to discipline the child. Oh, and just because it says "family restaurant" doesn't mean that it's okay for a child to be loud and obnoxious. There's only one place off the top of my head where a kid pretty much has a mandate to be loud and run around and that's Chuck-E-Cheese (or similar places, depended upon where you are in the world).

And please don't say that we have no idea how hard it is to raise children. Yes, we do. Different experiences have showed us how hard it is to raise children, which is why we've decided to not have them. Not to mention that it's not a valid excuse. My parents raised two children and my mother did it on her own from when I was 13 on. My sister and I have always been well-behaved in public, so it's not an impossibility.

Society has come to the point where there is now a market for several TV shows on different channels on how to deal with misbehaving children. I watch Supernanny and Nanny 911 and what I find so funny is that the nannies on the show aren't teaching anything novel. It's just plain old common sense. Your kid does something good, you reward them. They do something wrong, you punish them. That's the very first thing they teach you in the most basic psychology class. Classical and operational conditioning.

It's not even just the CF who feels this way. Please keep that in mind. My sister plans on having children and she gets more annoyed at misbehaving children and their parents than I do. Ditto for my mother, and she raised me and my sister. Of course, she (and my father when he was still alive) taught my sister and I how to behave in public. Any misbehaving would result in disciplinary action and this was a time when it was still okay to spank your child. (I'm only 20, BTW, so there isn't that large of a gap; this was the late 1980s - early 1990s).

Also keep in mind that yes, there is a fraction of the population that don't like children at all, but this does not make them evil in any sort of way.

The most important point: Those with children made the decision to have children. It is the childed that should and have to make life adjustments. It is not fair to ask others who had no part in the decision to adjust their life for you. Give the child some home-training or invest in a babysitter.

I apologize if this comes across as curt, but I try not to sugarcoat things. And the "you" is in the general terms, not to anybody here specifically.

Michelle- I wish you the best with Michael. You know him better than anyone. You did what was the best for him and that is more important than what the nurses thought. I could just imagine how bringing the police into it would have help the situation for him. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I recently talked to a friend who made comments like "I guess you think I am a bad parent" or something like that because she was making her child do what he was suppose to. I told her not to worry about what I thought. I hate that we as parents carry the guilt of feeling like we can't do enough for our kids and then the shame that others try to assign us because they don't think we are doing enough for our kids.

If they are letting their children run through the place causing problems, they are the ones that don't care if they are in a good light. But my favorite nice place to eat without my kids usually has kids there. Never have seen any kids act up there. But it is my favorite place because they ban cell phones. You have to leave to use one or go to the bar. I personally get tired of self important people talking over everyone on a cell phone more than hearing kids being upset because the food is taking so long.

Hey, i think those of us with kids also dont enjoy being around people who can't control their kids. I've flat out left places when my kids were acting up and they really needed to be out of there, regardless of how badly I wanted to be there.

Anyhow, I'm a prolific breeder (6th on the way, 5th living) and I get a *lot* of nasty stares when we go on a plane or into a restaurant, but usually my kids are pretty well behaved. By this point in time I'm quite efficient at knowing what to bring to keep them occupied.

I try to stay away fromthe CF forums too, I posted there once or twice by accident looking at active topics and not paying attention to the forum.

I dont think calling names is ever appropriate though. if there is an issue, address it when it happens, don't rationalize everyone.

Meg

>And please don't say that we have no idea how hard it is to >raise children. Yes, we do.

No, you don't. You see someone doing it, you experienced being raised. You see your brother, sister, best friend, aunt, whatever, raising kids. Maybe you even "raised" a little brother or sister. However, until you push one out, have it cut out or legally adopt one, you *don't* know. You see, but you aren't doing.

I applaud you for the guts to stick to your decision, I really do, but in all fairness, you don't know. You can't know because you haven't done it yourself. That's not bad or wrong, it's just fact, you don't know. Just like I don't remember what it's like to be childfree, because it's been that many years and I started young. I wouldn't pretend to know what it's like or claim I did.

Meg

I posted the comment below on the "This is the most populare forum at bella" (sic) because I felt it needed saying... With your indulgence, I will add it here too...

I have to say, from the point of view of a mother who has become estranged and separated from her own two daughters (so I have a foot in both camps, if you like!!) whilst I agree that those who have children have attempted to fiercely defend their parenthood status, there ahave been some who in their efforts to celebrate their choice of being child-free, have used comments or phrases which have put parents on the defensive.... Many happy parents have interpreted the term "breeders" as being all-encompassing..I for one understand that it is not: It is designed to label and to categorise those who have borne children irresponsibly and for financial gain or supplementary support... whose children are simply a means to an end... Prominent though they may be, however, I still think they are in general, in the minority... Most people who become parents love their children, and only want to do the best for them.

It may therefore be useful to reserve derogatory terms for those who fit the bill... and only when they appear on forum to declare their status and attempt to justify their actions....

If we expect politeness and respect for our decisions, it stands to reason that we must show the same for those with whom we 'speak'....

its good that you bring your kids to these places. exposure certainly helps in teaching children on how to behave in public. i love kids and have a long patience for them but we can't blame other people who don't and easily get irritated with children...

i salute those parents who were able to raise their children with proper manners without forgoing the fun that childhood brings them. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

i see breeders as people who have babies. I buy breeder fish, for example. I had a pair of breeder snakes. I am a breeder as I have children, lots of them, thus prolific breeder.

I dont really care what others think breeder means, all it means is the ability to have offspring.

I'm not into the CF lingo and don't care to be, it's not a place I belong or would try to infiltrate. I just go about my happy life the way it is <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

meg

Hi, This is my first time ever to participate in a forum discussion. I have to say you are all great, I�m loving it. You are also raising a lot of interesting points. All of which are reasonable and fair. My two cents worth is this:
Yes it would be nice to sit on a plane or in a restaurant or in my own living room for that matter and have peace. But it rarely happens. I understand the noise and confusion is more difficult for a hands off bystander. And I realize unless you are a mom you rarely encounter �enforced� unselfish living.
Yet, unless you are to become the last woman standing, the world will continue to be populated and if you truly can�t tolerate the ineptness of some families or bare watching a situation that is out of your control, loudly play out, you may need to look at other options for your social outings and shell out the bucks for first class.
Venting will not bring the common-sense-police movement alive. The way the world is heading, unless we do some truly inspired maneuvers, (possibly as a movement) a child�s ability to display self-control is likely to become a less observed phenomenon. A mother can not teach what she hasn�t examined or learned. Self-control, self-discipline, biggie size fries, and 150$ basketball shoes are at opposite ends of the spectrum. So are aggressive video games and spiritual compassion.
All I guess I am trying to say is that blaming will not solve this problem. It is bigger than all of us. And although mothers should do their part to raise respectful children, that is not a contractual stipulation upon conception. And there are no mental illness tests necessary. The finer point is... what �self respecting� mother wouldn�t try.

If parents dont have a resonable intelligence level or coping abilities sorry to say but they have no buisness having children but they do anyway...So sad <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I feel for the children of such lousy parents.

Nobody has mentioned segragation - I ceartinally would never condone that...Where was the word segregation ever used? Makes us chilfreers sound bad dosent it? Was that you intent?

I am sorry you have a child with special needs...I feel for you and your child and hope he gets the help he needs.YOui sound like a decent parent to me and none of what I said about breeders would EVER apply to a peson such as yourself.You have done the best you can and under the circumstances you are doing well.

As for patience with children in a public setting.When I see kids acting up with there friends I am very tolerant because there is no parent there to dicipline them and mby nature kids will act up like that when no adult in charge is present.

What I do have a problem with however is when they start acting up in a pubic setting and their " parents" ( I use that term loosley) see them and do not dicipline them.That I do not have any patience for...Some parents these days really have no idea..they are clueless...Society is breaking down and I believe a major contributing factor is in the way people are raising there children.

People have no values anymore because "parents" cannot be bothered to instill them.

Well said! You go girl! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes I know I spelt popular wrong in the subject heading Alexandra but you cannot edit it and when I saw it it was to late.Gee makes me look silley(sic) dosent it??? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My response to this post is in the "married without kids" forum.

I feel sorry for you. In my country, ranting children are the minority, as most (notice I did not say all) parents are very aware of discipline for their children. Just as some adults have problems with their behavior, kids do too.

I always wanted to visit Australia but you have me worried if there are so many "out of control" kids and unconcerned parents there. The percentage here is much, much less than you seem to indicate in your country. Too bad Australia has such a problem with breeders, or perhaps you just make a mountain out of a molehill?

Trish

Hi, I do not want anyone to feel badly. I agree with the point that unless you are carrying around a healthy dose of self-possession, moms feel a lot of insecurity and guilt and worry. I also feel society is in a bad place right now. Although there are surely moments, generally I don't believe parents are intentionally being bad parents. It is a tough time to parent and not getting any easier. I think you have to walk a mile in "that moms" shoes to know why things are the way they appear at any given time. Depression and "social" illnesses are taking away peoples ability to act and be in the present. And there are moms who feel their kids should express themselves freely, even in public. Most of us are not that way so you really shouldn't encounter that situation often. If you are, maybe it's karma.

Judith, I love that picture!

Lol....Let me assure you that your country has its fair share of out of control kids...More so than here Australia I think.We dont have to have special police in our schools and we dont have gun detectors...It is so sad what is happening to society in your country and mine aswell to a degree.
I think America has its fair share of "bad parents" look at how your societys values are breaking down...Speaks for itself dont you think. I am not saying We aussies dont have a problem because we do but I think its alot lesser of a problem you guys have and I really do feel for you - its a terrible problem and one I cant see getting better any time soon.

Express themselves freeley in public?

Of course but only if they are well behaved dont you think?

Common courtessy and respect for elders should prevail but sadly some of todays children dont have many values instilled in them.

It is not their fault it is their parents fault for not lovingley guiding them and instilling these values in them.

If I encounter a situation where a child is behaving badley with an adult present do you honestley think it is Karma?
You are not serious sureley?

The Karma the parent will recieve as a result of poor parenting pales into insignificance to the Karma I was getting for simply being in the pressence of bratty children and their "parents"

I honestley feel sorry for these parents because they are the ones who will be on the recieving end one day of "bad Karma"

If I understand the Bible quote properly, "The sins of the fathers shall fall onto the sons." Than we are born with bad karma and given the very nature of the beast, it's impossible to feel overly confident about being a "good parent", the deck is just stacked against you. You can be a good person and try your best. I agree whole heartedly there is something going wrong. As in every generation before, something gets missed, lost, or overlooked, or is just to big to see. I think it's a deeper element and linked to society change, I don't think poor parenting is creating the change. Just possibly a lot of poor attitudes.

What has any of this got to do with the bible?

I disagree that poor parenting is not a major contributing factor to the downfall of society - you say possibly a lot of poor attitudes but where does a bad attitude come from in the first place? From poor parenting....

I respect your opinion on this.YOu are entitled to say whatever you want but I will have to agree to disagree with you on this one but thankyou for your input anyway.

Yes poorly raised kids create a flat note in the tone of society. But I see the chicken/egg adage.

Which came first the poor attitude or the poor parent.

Can ya see it freespirit? Bye!

Yes I can see it but I dont think you do. Ciaw!

Parenting advice from the non-parent. Always so appropriate. If you don't like being in mixed company (that is, children being children side-by-side with adults), freespirit, try a commune--or the CF forum. Otherwise deal with it, just as we moms (after all, that is the target audience for this particular forum--MOMS) have to deal with persons who truly have no concept of parenting.

We thank you for choosing not to have children.

WOW! This one is almost as heated as the ones texasdave kept riled up! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FreeSpirit, just wanted to say thankyou for your kind words. And I wasn't trying only to gain sympathy (although lately I am feeling pretty sorry for myself) - but to show that it is not always possible to tell what is going on in the mind of a child and/or parent when a meltdown occurs. For the majority of us Moms that have been in the 3 yr old - tantrum in the grocery aisle, stage - it is embarassing, and we would love to take a gag or piece of tape and just make our child be quiet so everyone would stop staring.

Unfortunately we can't do that. (And I really wouldn't, but I do sometimes wonder, and my husband is convinced he should invent children's chewable valium!)

There are good and bad kids everywhere. Sometimes you will see an amazing child come out of the foster system, and wonder how it was ever accomplished. Other times you watch the child whose parents truly love him go deeper into gangs and drugs, no matter how many interventions are done. These things happen.

But I do believe that we as parents have a responsibility while our children are still little and impressionable to teach them to treat others the way they would want to be treated. Courtesy basically boils down to that. Even if one is not a Christian, one can grasp the basic tenet - even small children. Teaching synpathy and empathy are possibly two of our greatest gifts we can give to our children. And will not only help them in day to day life; but if everyone did this, could make a difference in the world one day.

Big dreams, I know; but then Dr. King had some dreams, too, and some of them have come to pass.

So very true, Michelle. And some adults, obviously, missed this lesson growing up.

Apologies to the MOMS, my patience wears thin and my tolerance low.

I know this isn't my zoo to keep. But as Michelle has mentioned in previous posts here, some non-moms who shall remain nameless have a nasty habit of pretending to pat moms on the head for their good work while spitting on them all in the same breath. If they want to do that, fine--but not on a forum for MOMS.

I was having trouble posting here before as I had a message come up that said I had "reading priviliges only...seems I can post now.I dont know what happened.

Too, bad Freespirit. I fully support your choice to not have children. Thank you.

However, for continuous and unjustified mom-bashing--however much you "really don't mean to"--and derogatory references to moms, you've made my ignore list.

Enjoy!

Oh please dont accuse me of praising mothers and not meaning it...I mean everyword of it.You dont know me at all and you dont know what I am about.I meant EVERY WORD of what I said.

I dont know what I have said that is so bad.If anything you are the one who has been nasty and condecending to me...

Your statement "we thank you for not having children" How childish and spiteful can one be?

I was never dishing out advice to you on how to raise children as I as a non mother do not have that right but I thought I was just talking common sense.Please dont tell me I have "no idea" of what it is to raise children.I have plenty of childed friends,I have nices and nephews...I constantley hear how hard child raising is and I believe it is.

I should not sink down to your level but I just cant resist..... "I just want to thank you for having children because they can look after me in my old age...

I will pay for it out of my hard earned money and from all the money I saved by not having children but in the mean time I will keep subsidising your children through my taxes....But that I do not mind as ivesting in childrens education is to me very important as every child deserves a chance.

You can all re- read all of my posts concerning this issue and not once have I ever mum bashed anyone.

I dont know how many times I have to say I respect all you good parents out there.You do a bloody good job and as a reward you are sending into the world well adjusted adults and you can be proud of them.

Michelle do I really come across like texas dave??? I am shocked and saddened if this is the case as I swear this was not my intention. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Lyn accuses me of being an un- geniuene person by saying I attack mums out there and then "pretend" to be nice to them.This is [censored] and I am really hurt by this as everything I say comes from my heart and I have said this so many bloody times but for those of you who do a good job raising your children and teach them right from wrong e.c.t I praise you - Ipraise you all and you have my full respect.I have said this on many occasions and I dont know whay she is so mean to me as I have done nothing to deserve it in my opinion. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What has what I said upset her so much??? Now I have to wonder if I have hit a raw nerve...I must have or else she would not have taken what I said to heart.Hmmmm <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

When you explained about children that act up in public - like have tantrums e.c.t I know that is normal and it has happened to me on manyy occasions when I have been in charge of my nice and all I could do was pick her up and carry her out of the store untill she stopped.I was mortified <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />...She got punished big time though as she knows there are consequences to bad behaviour...

I was talking about kids acting up in public while "parents" do nothing and actually ignore their children. They dont even try to correct them - that annoys me sooo much!!!!The sad thing is alot of children do this (act up) to get attention from their parents...

NO, no no - I wasn't meaning YOU were acting like TD at all!

So sorry that came across that way! No I meant the debate was getting as heated up as some of the ones that TD was in (those ususally got to be quite interesting!)

I think the one thing that was said, that I know I took rather personally, was that on one board you came on and said how much you admired mother's for what they do - but then went to the CF board and it seemed like we were being made fun of - this was the thread titled Mom's Board That's what Lynn is talking about (I think) and what I referred to in my very first post on this thread.

However, since that first post, you and I have had the chance to come to know each other a little more. I respect you and your opinions. But for some reason we seem to have this antagonistic relationship with the MNK board. Anytime someone (Delongcrey I remember in particular) tries to keep peace on both boards, she is ostracized.

But even if you (you in the general broad sense)are not referring to us particular mom, the words "breeder" and such are still wuite hurtful - because some people do sling them at me when my autistic child gets out of hand. Or automatically assuming that Meg is being irresponsible because she has more than 2 or 3 kids. - If she is raising them well, then what difference does it make how many she has?

i'm starting to ranmble here, sorry - I took my nighttime meds. Y'all are lucky you are getting entire sentences instead of snhjdgubnblat! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

i think I will leave off here for now, and continue in the morning when my brain is fresher. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But FreeSpirit, I do apologize that I came off as comparing you to our dear TD, that I did not mean to do. <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" />

No need for an appology from you michelle...


Cfers get deffensive alot because we are judged so much esspecially from people that supposadly care for us.My mother in law for example can not get over the fact that I wont give her grandchildren.I am sure she blames me....


Thankyou everyone for listening anyway.

My father is definitely one of the 'old school'... typically British, married and had kids in the '50's, when dads didn't usually attend births, change nappies, or even know who their children were until they could string a sentence together...I'm exaggerating, but you get the picture...
if ever we went out for a meal together, as a family, and we heard a child complaining more loudly than normal (!) he would jokingly mutter under his breath 'drown it'! and we'd laugh, because we know he's kidding...
But I didn't realise quite how often he said this, until while I was out for a meal one day, with just my two girls, (the eldest was 10, the youngest, two) we sat in a restaurant, and heard a child begin to cry...instantly, my two-year-old piped up: 'Drown it!'...!!

My father never said it again.

Who said that "little pitchers have big jugs"? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Children are so impressionable aernt they?

They are like little tape recorders and they copy everything their parents say.Thats why it is paroumount that a good example be set to them.They deserve nothing less...

That was a funny story though about your dad...I bet that taught your dad a lesson eh? lol...