BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Philosophy Fate vs. Free Will

Does the concept of fate leave any room for free will? If there is free will can fate still exist? If any one has any thoughts, arguments, opinions, poetry and/or quotes please feel free to post a reply.

As a Christian, I believe that fate applies to the will of God in regards to the world in a general sense. In other words, fate is prophecy by God that determines the outcome of the world. While free will determines my personal outcome. Helpful?

Perhaps not absolutely everything is 'fate' (if we accept that it exists), and that free will gives us several choices as to how we get to the same place, but maybe with different life experiences etc. ? Maybe 'fate' also includes learning those life experiences/lessons, but gives us a choice about the situations in which we do so? That's probably a bit of a tenuous argument, but I thought I'd give it a go <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

best wishes - Jane

God has foretold the world from beginning to end. That sounds like fate. You and I have personal choice ( free will) to choose God or satan. If we serve God we will end up with God. If we serve satan we will end up with satan. A servant resides with his master. Choose wisely.

I'm not sure that everything fits nicely into a 'moral absolute', (again, if we agree that such things exist) - I think that sometimes there may be shades of grey, and that these are some of the times that I meant. That is, we may end up at the same destinations, but through different routes/choices, and that these choices may be equivalent in 'moral value'. Obviously if they aren't, then it's socially pragmatic to take the route which would harm the fewest, I feel. Just my opinions though <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

best wishes - Jane <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There are moral absolutes. Is raping a woman always wrong? I believe so. Don't you? That is a moral absolute. How about slavery? Is that always wrong? Sure.

Weird, then, how slavery was done in the name of Christ for so long. I mean, there's even advocation of slavery in the Bible.

Does that mean that there are parts of the Bible that are wrong? Or (no!) could it be (no way!) that Christians got something wrong once? I mean, if they could get something as big as slavery wrong for so long, who knows what they could be getting wrong now!!!

Have you ever read The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy ? It is a dry read but all of it is backed up with hard facts about christianity or the lack of it and of course the bibliography is included. It's packed full of some pretty interesting facts.

Being Buddhist, what others label as 'Fate' I would label as 'karma' but many see this as something personal, or judgemental. This would be incorrect....karma is merely a consequential result of previous action. It just "Is". It is not a retribution, or a pay-back... it is merely the unfolding result of previous experiences....Free Will on the other hand, is inbuilt. it is Choice. It gives us the skill to discriminate and to evaluate, and to decide, faced with this choice, whether to proceed Positively, Negatively or Neutrally.....Hopefully, we would use our judgement and discrimination to decide skillfully... therefore we accumulate the positive Karmic consequences, thereby eliminating or reducing our eventual suffering...
The Process of Free Will and Choice begins in our Mind...In our Thought processes and mental machinations...
A Buddhist Rule of Thumb, dealing with karma and free will, is this:

"If you would know what you once were, Look at what your Life is doing today. If you would know what you will be, Look at what your Mind is doing today."

Hope this adds.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you're probably right, Texasdave - that moral absolutes do exist, in terms of society. On the other hand, I do think that there are many choices which don't fit neatly into morally 'good' or 'bad' labels. I think what Alexandra has said about the difference between karma and choice is very helpful. I find that a lot of the choices that are available are a direct consequence of how I've previously chosen, so that it makes sense, if life is to be bearable, to chose wisely and to harm none whenever possible.

best wishes - Jane <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(harm none' is the first of the five Buddhist precepts... it directly recommends that you consider the well-being of all sentient beings.... this includes ones' self...)

Interesting tht you should mention it.
if however you have anything to do with Buddhism, no surprise at all that you should mention it - *giggle!* <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As a Christian, I understand that God commands to "harm none" including yourself because we do not belong to ourselves but to the God that created us.

Well then harming none gives us all something in common then <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's nice to find common ground <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jane

I never doubted it for a second <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's all labels... Buddhist, Christian, hindu.... We're all sentient Beings, that's the 'be all and end all of it'... <img src="/images/graemlins/lovers.gif" alt="" />

Hey davey, guess what! You just said "As a Christian, I understand that God commands to "harm none". Well, it's funny you should say that, as I'm sure you wrote in a post earlier that you're a hunter and go around blasting animals to pieces. Well that doesn't sound like you're harmless to me - right matey! I mean, I love your work, but you're a bit scary-chicken-neck* sometimes. I shall say no more. I think we'll just leave it there. Look, are you still reading this - stop it right now! Personally I think people that kill animals for fun should get a ruddy good punch up the trousers!!!! As my mother always used to say "good manners cost nothing"** which is completely true!

* no offence
** which means...oh just look it up

An animal is not a person and if you eat meat you pay someone else to kill an animal for you. I hunt, yes. I eat what I hunt. Animals are not morally equivalent to humans. No big deal.

Actually I'm a vegan, so I don't eat meat.

I realise some people enjoy eating meat, I have no problem with that, but the majority of them don't enjoy stalking, killing and watching the animal die for their plate. You need to be a particularly loathesome type to consider this sort of thing a 'sport'.

Killing is not a sport. The sport is in finding the game. That is why they call it hunting and not killing. The kill is just the harvest. It is not barbaric as many would believe. A sucessful hunter finds the game, stalks, and then makes a clean instant kill with little or no suffering. Poachers are the ones who give hunting a bad name. Much like motorcycle gangs give a bad name to an otherwise wonderful passtime of motorcycling.

Yea you tell the freak! I believe he is Pure Evil.
Anybody who hurts an animal is [email]fu@!ed[/email] in the head.

Game hunting is considered a sport by the mindless 'killers' that participate. And I'm sure they're not all able to make such an expert 'clean instant kill' as you are - plently of animals escape wounded and die with horrible suffering.

What is it that you actually enjoy about it? Is it the element of 'playing god'? Being able to choose which animal lives or dies? If you're such a christian guy, then why not do charitable things with your free time, mission work, stuff like that, rather than stalking through the woods with a gun and blasting apart defenceless animals?

You say you visit this forum to 'spread the word', but you're giving christianity a bad name.

I know I'm Buddhist, (So it could be that in TD4's eyes i'm beyond saving, or my comments don't count....) but I used to be a christian - and if I still were, I, and many like me, would probably wish to disassociate ourselves from the calibre of "Christianity" TD4 is expounding. To me, it's not giving it a bad name, it just isn't Christianity at all.

Alexandra,
I have a question for you. You say you used to be a Christian. Were you once saved and now you're lost?

TD4:

I see your post is 'Re: Alexandra '...
Sorry, but I can't read your post content. I've already advised you I'm ignoring you.....

Who are you ignoring, there's nobody there <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />*

*I shall say no more

Alexandra,
No response is still a response. Were you saved and now lost? Can you answer that question? Do not be afraid.

ssshhhhh

Hi Familychoice,

I am really enjoying your responses <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thank you so much for being on the Bellaonline Forums, you are certainly a breath of fresh air.

Eva

familychoice... is that you in your avatar....? I love that picture...

If it isn't you, I might 'steal' it, it's so funny....



if it IS you.....

I might steal it, it's so funny!!

Oooh thank you all - big kisses xxx *(nothing saucy though). It's not really me, but don't tell anyone as it's a secret** I'm much better looking than that, but I've had a bit of problem growing my beards so we'll say no more about it. My mother always said I had funny hormones. Anyway, what I meant to say was that Alexandra you can borrow my beardy photo anytime. And that's true that is. I'm a bit fed up with him anyway, so I might change him for a nice puppy or kitten, if I can find one with facial hair. What am I talking about...they all have facial hair. Or is it fur. I think we'll just leave it there. I shall say no more. Actually, perhaps it is me in the photo, who can say? I can't - That's the beauty of my enigmas.

* stop that
** forget about this

One thing that always amazes me is compasionate, accepting people that are quick to judge and call names about particular subjects. If someone stated the same about someone who aborts a child it would draw the ire of many in these forums.

From those that do not eat meat (from warm or cold blooded creatures or wear animal products and eat only products from farms that do not kill small animals through poisons (mice and insects are animals also?) I can accept critism about hunting and fishing. Otherwise it seems to be a very selective form of "morality".

Life feeds on life. Each person enjoys nature and its bounty in thier own way.

The money used by state animal conservation organizations come from taxes on hunters and fisherman, not from general taxes. Talk with a park ranger about the importance of hunters in mantaining the health of forest creatures (especialy the deer herds).

written by a loathsome evil man who is %^*(^% in the head

I often struggle with the concept of freewill. The choices we make are so influenced by culture, body chemistry and genetics.

Seemily rational persons are swayed by charismatic leaders to do horrid behaviors. Deprogramers can change true believers into accepting the reality of the majority. Hypnotists can help shy people to act otherwise in front of strangers. A blow to the head or electric convulsive therapy can cause major personality changes.

Free will and the "I" of self is just another illusion. I used to make a living by teaching others how to change behaviors, thoughts and emotions, to help them change world views to less stressful ones and also to help intergrate multiple "selves" into one.

One philosophy that intrigues "me" is that highest form of existance is to be free of the illusion of self.

Quite so...Or Not-self... as it is called in the Diamond Sutra... Difficult one to understand..harder to explain...very simple though, in it's logic...
Clarity and cut.... hence the name, 'Diamond' Sutra... it cuts through all illusion with perfect precision and clarity.

Damned if I've managed to get my head round it all - !!

Thanks for the post.

Nice to see you here. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But aing, we have taken away the deer's habitat, as well as the Florida Panther and Bobcats, the coyotes cannot be relocated from our airport, so they are trapped and killed. Just a few of the animals that would help to keep the deer population in control if their habitat was left alone. The park ranger will tell us what they want the public to be told, unless you have a very good and old buddy who is a park ranger (like I do). Then, they will discuss it honestly.

Unless there's a private discussion going on somewhere, Firefly - I have nooooo idea what you are talking about - !! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Firefly was responding to a previous post of mine made on page 2. We got off topic for a bit.

Ok, i'm just jumping in at the end, not actually commenting directly to Aing (although, welcome to the forums!) - you just happened to be last in line.

Most of you here know I believe in free will, but there are things beyond our control which I guess would qulify down the path we call "fate". Things like natural disasters, accidents (well actually, those a lot of times are caused by the decisions made of other's free will) Alexandra, I believe it was you that pointed out how we are all interconnected, and it is definitely true; even if we can't see it! The butterfly effect was a term long in use before it became the title of a screwed up movie! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I guess I kind of picture if like a big road map; here's my road - every time I have a choice to make I come to a fork, the one I choose to go down continues on, the other dead ends. But then there's all these other roads that have intersections with mine because of other people's decisions (the intersections would be people I come in contact with). Or maybe some that have bridges that go over my road. (These are the ones I don't immediately come into contact with.) Some of these roads become a tangled mess because I and/or someone else made the wrong choice, but hopefully we will work it out and the roads will straighten back out, and maybe give us a lovely winding view of the mountains. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I know that was a rather weird and convoluted example, but it does seem the way our lives cross when we make decisions. Roads get torn up by tornadoes, too. Someone just has to come behind and fix them. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" />

In fact, Michelle, if you were to stand back and visualise, your mind just wouldn't be able to take it all in... because not only would your path be intersected by the path of every single person you come into contact with, their paths would also be intersected by every single person THEY connect with...and so on and so on, ad infinitem.
Such is the interconnectedness of all these paths, that in fact, they all meld and merge into one another, and there is no distinction, border or boundary...

So we're all one one great big unified all-encompassing path...together....

The Right or Wrong choice does not exist. There is no such thing.
"Right" and "Wrong" are mere evaluations we make at the time, and what may seem right - absolutely entirely Right - at the time, due to the current circumstances, may only appear "Wrong" much later. But we can't make that evaluation because the Future is a non-existent concept.
We may find a similar situation arising at a later point, but with the necessary available information, either make the same decision again, or change our minds and do the opposite.... but the results, and the results only, will demonstrate whether we were skilful in our decision.

The concept of Right or Wrong merely depends upon our Perception. And Perception is often DEception.
I walked down Oxford Street in London once, on a bitterly cold January day... it was sleeting and dysmal. I saw a man in shirtsleeves, completely oblivious to the inclement weather.
It turned out when I stopped to speak to him, that his interpreter (as wrapped and bundled up as I) explained that he was an Inuit Eskimo, in London for a conference....

What is freezing to some, is a walk in the park to others.
So we can only evaluate something from our own Point of View. But it is only ours, and we have to accept that others may see it differently. But It is not Wrong. And it is not Right.

Grab my hand Michelle, let's go for a cuppa!!

Sorry Alexandra, it was off topic on the previous page, but since Aing is only two hours away from me down the coast, I felt the need to reply. (the neighborly thing to do). Most of the time I think I know what I am talking about. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh, hey...! that's no problem at all..I just thought I was losing the plot....!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for clarifying..!

I think fate is what God has planed and makes us go through and free will is what we do with our fate and karma is the natural consequences of our choices good or bad. for example we are born to ms. and mr somebody in somewhere Earth and some point in time (fate) with that envoroment and expereinces we have our moral ethical make up. we use free will to detremane how we veiw others and the world at large. if we choice to be victoms of our child hood and other experincese them the world will make us victoms to more. karma if we buck aganaist our childhood teachings then we rick condenation and rejection from our family and hometown people. weither it is good or bad our choices effect others and there choices effect us but how much is depented on how much we choice to let it most of the time. the other part is out of our control for example drunk driver hits you...war... and God controls the weather so fate has a big say
ok i type too much...sorry