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End of EU in sight? #195065
06/07/05 01:26 AM
06/07/05 01:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 339
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 339
Deep Throat, where are you now that we
REALLY need you?

I think "globalism" is beginning to fall apart. With France and
the Netherlands rejecting the loss of sovereignty to the EU---
suddenly they realized what they were losing (their identities)---
they pulled out while they still could. The EU was about to
accomplish what Hitler had failed to achieve, a united Europe
dominated by the strongest member, Germany. The French, detesting
Bush, also suddenly realized that without their cooperation, Bush
could not pull it off. The only thing remaining is for the Germans
to pull out and Britain will be isolated as the "little Buddy" of an
abandoned Bush and his NeoConRats.

The collapse of the Euro has been predicted for some
time. You can't just throw a bunch of diverse countries into a
blender and homogenize them with a single currency.
The problems created are greater than those intended to be solved,
and I'm not so sure that that was the goal anyway. Powerful interests
in all these countries have their own agendas and the separate
populations were apparently sold a bill of goods. Time to wake up
and smell the coffee. In order for anyone to win others had to lose.

Get a load of the article I'm including here by Al Martin (ala "Al Martin
Raw") predicting dire circumstances. Makes you wonder what to do

> From:
> Renowned Funds Manager Predicts Global Economic
> Collapse
> By Al Martin
> (May 30) There was an interview on CNBC of the
> renowned funds manager Julian Robertson. He is one
> of the greatest of the
> old-timers. 53 years on the Street. He manages the
> Robertson group of funds. They used to call him,
> still do call him
> 'Never Been Wrong' Robertson. He has predicted
> every economic cycle, every debacle, every bull
> market, and every bear
> market. Of course, he's a very old man now. But
> his reputation on the Street is like nothing you
> could imagine. When the
> segment of his interview was through, his comments
> alone took the Dow Jones down 50 points. Just on his
> comments alone.
> That's how powerful this man's reputation is.
> Robertson was actually a teary-eyed, an old man.
> When Ron Insana asked him about his predictions, he
> said that he's worried
> about the speculative bubble in housing and the
> fact that more than 1/4 of all consumer spending is
> now sustained by that
> bubble, plus the fact that 20 million citizens
> could lose their homes in a collapse of the
> speculative bubble in housing,
> and that the Fed and, indeed, central banks
> worldwide would act in concert out of desperation to
> reinflate the global
> economy in the process, creating an inflationary
> spiral unheralded in the economic history of the
> planet.
> Insana then asks, "Where does it end?" And he
> said, "Utter global collapse." Not simply economic
> collapse; complete
> disintegration of all infrastructure and of all
> public structures of governments. Utter, utter
> collapse. That the end is
> collapse of simply epic proportion.
> In 10 years time, he said, whoever is still alive
> on the planet will be effectively starting again.
> And the comments were so negative. I've never
> heard anything like it. From a guy who was 53 years
> on the Street. This is
> Julian Robertson, the renowned Republican. And yet
> he blamed everything on 'the Bushonian Cabal,' that
> the Cabal has now
> consolidated power and money on the planet to the
> maximum extent possible. That the planet's net
> liquidity--that is, net
> free cash flow--is now a negative number. That the
> planet is not simply sinking into a sea of red ink;
> it is already sunk.
> The people just don't realize it yet.
> The enormity of it was such that he said that the
> Bush-Cheney regime--calls them 'the Bush-Cheney
> regime' (I swear this guy
> must listen to me)--the Bush-Cheney regime is
> preparing the nation for transition from democracy
> into dictatorship because
> a dictatorship will be necessary to control, not
> civil unrest. That isn't what he said. He said that
> it will be necessary
> to control, in 5 years' time, food and water
> riots.
> He said the federal government, that part of
> Patriot II Act, the internal exile, that the
> government is going to have to
> build now huge detention compounds on federal
> lands, probably in the West where the land is
> available, to potentially house
> 50 million or more citizens that will be in
> financial ruin.
> Food production will fall. And any further effort
> to control environmental destruction will be
> abandoned. Inflation will
> run into the double and eventually triple digits.
> People will be carrying around U.S. dollars in
> wheelbarrows like Germany.
> And he finally ended his comments by saying that
> he hopes that he is not alive to see this. And he
> looks at Ron Insana and
> he said, "The 'lucky' ones are the ones who are my
> age now."
> Total collapse of public infrastructure. Total
> collapse of medical care systems.
> All public pension plans, Social Security will
> collapse. All corporate pension plans will collapse.
> I've never heard
> anything like it.
> But he backed that up with some fabulous
> statistics that I have pointed out before in various
> articles.
> What he did is he did it all in literally one
> statement literally. But, 14% of all real estate
> transactions now being
> interest-only mortgages, and another 14% of people
> now, that, when they bought their homes, originated
> more than 100% of
> the purchase price in the mortgage and then
> borrowed further.
> This was on the Ron Insana show on May 24, 2004. I
> mean, it was absolutely extraordinary. And he had
> pointed out all that
> we have pointed out before. What he talked about
> is he globalized it a lot more than I have in the
> past by saying that the
> American consumer is effectively now supporting
> the rest of the planet, which is true; that
> consumption rates in all other
> nations are falling, have fallen to the point that
> the tax revenues to governments, that the business
> and industries those
> nation states are providing is now a net negative
> number relative to total debt service and public
> cost, that this exists
> in virtually every nation state on the planet now.
> And he pointed out, more importantly, and I'm
> trying to think how we imply this or how we express
> this to the people, what
> extraordinary times we are living in and how the
> destruction of the planet has been engineered by the
> Bushonian Cabal from
> 1980 to 1992, and then from 2001 to present, which
> has effectively destroyed the economic liquidity of
> the planet.
> And it was absolutely extraordinary.
> When Insana asked him, you know, he said he had
> sold all of his real estate and he was moving into
> one of the new
> super-secure compounds for wealthy Republicans for
> when the 'barbarians will be at the gate.'
> He said, "Ron, those barbarians will be
> potentially a third of the American population."
> Ron asked, "What are your friends doing?"
> The implication being wealthy Republicans. And,
> this is interesting, he said everyone that he knew
> that had a home worth
> more than a million dollars in the United States
> has sold it. They have sold all of their
> landholdings. They have
> liquidated all U.S. securities. They have bought a
> townhouse or something in one of the new ultra-high
> secure semi-secret
> Republican compounds with the barbed wire and the
> machine guns. And then they also own a home, like,
> in the Cayman Islands
> or somewhere in the Caribbean. He spoke of the new
> Republican high-security compounds that are being
> built throughout the
> Caribbean, and even in Switzerland.
> And this is what he points to: He said the new
> wave, or where the wealthy Republicans are going in
> their housing--and he's
> right. It tells you much about what the wealthy
> Republicans think of where this planet is going:
> that they all want to live
> in these ultra-high security communities that
> haven't even been built yet.
> And we're talking about not simply the guards at
> the gate. We're talking about communities the
> security of which have never
> been built before.
> He's referring to is these new gated communities
> that are being built with the 18-foot high walls and
> the
> machine-gun-toting guards and underground food
> lockers, cryogenic food lockers, and their own power
> plants, their own
> water. But it bespeaks volumes of where the top
> 10% of the nation feel the planet is going.
> The only thing that keeps popping into my mind is
> - what is it going to look like in ten years' time?
> What comes to mind is the final 30-second shot in
> the movie Rollover. The famed movie Rollover with
> Kris Kristoferson and
> Jane Fonda.
> The final 30-second shot when the decision was
> made, when Hume Cronyn is standing in his office in
> the Citi Bank building
> in New York with its 30-foot vaulted ceilings and
> mahogany paneling. He's got the phone in his hand
> and he's talking to the
> group of bankers, the 13 Gnomes, he called them,
> in Switzerland, that have the last remaining free
> cash flow in the world.
> He says, on the telephone, "Pull the plug." Then
> he lights up a cigar and pours himself a glass of
> brandy. And he looks
> down on the street. He's 20 floors up. It's all
> plate glass window. It was actually shot at the Citi
> Bank building. And he
> looks down the street. It's winter. December.
> Absolutely bitter cold, 3 feet of snow on the
> ground. And all is dark. The
> power's gone. No more power. Everything has begun
> to collapse. And the wind, you hear this frigid wind
> whistling through
> the canyons of the streets around Wall Street,
> which have become canyons. And there's a few people
> there in tattered rags,
> with steel drums, burning stuff to keep warm. It
> shows them, they keep dumping in U.S. currency to
> keep the fire going. And
> then at the end it shows down between Wall and
> Broad, there's like 2 or 3 hundred people, there's a
> food riot in progress.
> And Hume is sitting there looking out of his plate
> glass window with a cigar in his mouth.
> The very final scene: You see the food riots. Then
> you see the police come in in these
> ultra-high-tech-looking riot
> control, hover vehicles. They're all black matte
> with dark red digitized writing that says "State
> Security." And they start
> gassing the crowd. And then it shows the Citi Bank
> executive helicopter coming down on top of the 57th
> floor of the
> building to pick up Hume. He gets in the
> helicopter. The pilot actually asks him, "Where are
> we going?" And he said, "Oh,
> to my executive compound." The pilot points in the
> front seat of the helicopter and he said, "We have a
> case of the 1961
> vintage Rothschild `61. Mr. Chairman, we secured
> an extra case for you."
> Then they fly over where the food riots are. And
> there's no power. And there's trash blowing through
> the streets. And some
> of the telephone poles have come down.
> And they swing over the harbor and most of the
> boats are swamped or sunk or all grungy. This is
> what Robertson's words
> reminds me of. ---
> * AL MARTIN is an independent economic-political
> analyst with 25 years of experience as a trader on
> CFTC. As a former contributor to the Presidential
> Council of Economic Advisors, Al Martin is
> considered to be a source of
> independent analysis for financially sophisticated
> and market savvy investors.
> After working as a broker on Wall Street, Al
> Martin was involved in the so-called "Iran Contra"
> Affair as a fundraiser for
> the Bush Cabal from the covert side of government
> aka the US Shadow Government.
> His memoir, "The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran
> Contra Insider," (http://www.almartinraw.com)
> provides an unprecedented
> look at the frauds of the Bush Cabal during the
> Iran Contra era. His weekly column, "Behind the
> Scenes in the Beltway," is
> published weekly on Al Martin Raw.com, which also
> publishes a bimonthly newsletter called
> "Whistleblower Gazette."
> Al Martin's new website "Insider Intelligence"
> (http://www.insiderintelligence.com ) will provide a
> long term macro-view of
> world markets and how they are affected by
> backroom realpolitik.

Renaissance guy
Re: End of EU in sight? #195066
06/07/05 04:45 AM
06/07/05 04:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,765
Norfolk, VA
Bob S. Offline
Bob S.  Offline
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,765
Norfolk, VA
Carl. I think many of us knew this a long time ago and now, the Europeans are beginning to think the same thing. Not only Hitler but Napolean as well. Another experiment that may well fail. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Robert F. Stachurski
Re: End of EU in sight? #195067
06/07/05 06:34 AM
06/07/05 06:34 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 323
Warszawa, Poland
A_dam Offline
A_dam  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 323
Warszawa, Poland
I think that globalism cannot 'fall apart' unless the world econony falls apart: globalism is not artificially (i.e ideologically) constructed entity. Rather a stage of development of profit-oriented economy. No conspiracy here.

I believe that the EU has nothing in common with 'what Hitler had failed to achieve' as Hitler didn't try
to 'unite' Europe - he, and the Germans, have subjugated Europe in cooperation with Stalin and Russia, in a way resembling a barbrian attack on civilized world.

And most of all I object the statement that

'Powerful interests
in all these countries have their own agendas and the separate
populations were apparently sold a bill of goods. Time to wake up
and smell the coffee. In order for anyone to win others had to lose.'

which I tend to see as a credo of a conspirational theory follower :-) Sorry about that. The last statemnet of the credo seems taken out live of some history of the fight between social classes manual, or races, or cultures, whatever.

Well, at least all this is how I see it. Critisism is welcomed :-)

Re: End of EU in sight? #195068
06/07/05 10:02 AM
06/07/05 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 995
raytan Offline
raytan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 995
Carl - that's the most laughable headline I've seen in a long time - is it from Fox? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: End of EU in sight? #195069
06/07/05 10:06 AM
06/07/05 10:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 995
raytan Offline
raytan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 995
Bob - what have American beer and the American dollar got in common?


Answer: they're both very weak!!!!!


<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: End of EU in sight? #195070
06/07/05 10:52 AM
06/07/05 10:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 995
raytan Offline
raytan  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 995
communists have been predicting the imminent collapse of capitalism over and over again since the 19th century but it hasn't happened yet....

and plenty of people in the USA would dearly love to see the EU collapse too - hence the reason for "news" stories like this appearing over and over again.

when you have a deficit the size of America's and your currency is disappearing down the toilet like the American dollar is, I suppose one way of dealing with that is to keep pretending to yourself that there's a crisis in Europe.... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Re: End of EU in sight? #195071
06/07/05 10:23 PM
06/07/05 10:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 339
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 339
I have never understood the lust for globalism when alliances when needed have worked for centuries. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is an unnatural think to remove any groups personal identity. I am sure you are familiar with the still very Dutch community of Prospect Park. They pose no harm to anyone. Why the drive to homogenize cultures and eliminate these innocuous identities?
I also don't understand the Neo-con focus when the Dems have also supported the EU and Clinton supported their admitting Turkey in 1999.
Economies are nothing to make rash moves with as any economics 101 student learns and one does not need a crystal ball to see this would not work. It appears that all have participated in what is destined to fail not just Neo-Cons, but I can understand why Robertson as a Republican holds them more responsible.
We all must take personal responsibility for the debt we create and take action to pay it down. Being forewarned it being forearmed.

Renaissance guy
Re: End of EU in sight? #195072
06/08/05 03:15 AM
06/08/05 03:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,577
JagaBella Offline
JagaBella  Offline
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,577

I do not want EU to die out but this is the first experiment of this kind and I am not sure it will survive,

Raytan and all people who read Polish, please read this very interesting article in Polish:
Socjalna Europa na beczce prochu

here is also an interesting article from Turkish perspective:

Re: End of EU in sight? #195073
06/08/05 04:52 AM
06/08/05 04:52 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 323
Warszawa, Poland
A_dam Offline
A_dam  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 323
Warszawa, Poland
Hi All,
I think that one cannnot deny that there's a crisis in EU, but EU's crisis or even 'the end of social Europe' does not necessarily mean 'the end of EU'. I am, for instance, wholehearteadly all FOR European Union, and at the same time I am against EU of the recently rejected 'constitution'. I think the recent crisis was inevitable - after EU spreading over so great area. I hope we'll succesfully overcome the crisis and the 'postcrisis' EU will be even more fascinating and more efficient than before.

I must say that in my opinion the homogenization of cultures in the so called Western societies nowadays is taking place independently from the existance of states, union of states etc. And the last thing one can say about the EU is that EU removes any groups personal identity. In fact the EU acts the opposite - it strenghtens
the identity of various groups of peoples.
I also do think that the first experiment ever of the "EU kind" happened in Central and Eastern Europe, lasted some 400 years and ended up some 250 years ago - it was called Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodow <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The second experiment of the "EU kind" happened in trhe North America and lasts till now <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> THe third one is the EU itself <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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