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Jeremiah 8:8

"How is it that you say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false." (MKJV)

Jer 8:8 "'How can you say, "We know the score. We're the proud owners of GOD's revelation"? Look where it's gotten you--stuck in illusion. Your religion experts have taken you for a ride! (MSG)

You quoted this scripture from this translation...but the Message Bible puts it more clearly, it explains that it was the RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS that have misjudged and messed up the meaning of the Bible for themselves. The game of semantics is mans game, not God's. It is a lie from the devil that the Bible is not the true Word of God. Only those who have decided that they are smarter than God the Father even try to make the argument that the Bible is innaccurate. When one has a personal relationshirp with Jesus Christ, it becomes clear that we are not better or smarter than God and so therefore accept his Word whole heartedly without doubt.

Rev 22:19 if you subtract from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will subtract your part from the Tree of Life and the Holy City that are written in this book.

God tells us in Revelation that no Word of His will be detracted from this book....semantics have changed nothing in the message of His Word.

2Ti 3:16 Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another--showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God's way.

God assures us that he wrote the Bible. He assures us that the message in it is His message and that His will for us is as accurate as it was 2000 years ago....

"The Muslim belief is that he was not risen. He was alive and kicking."

Of course you believe this!!! how else then can you justify the rqadical extreme beliefs of your religion???!!! Again, another lie from the devil that Jesus is not who He claims to be....satan wants nothing more than to see you get carried away in your disbelief....it gives him great pleasure to obscure the facts so you will not be in the book of life....thats his goal, and he doesn't care one iota for you in any way shape or form....he will feed you anything you will believe as long as its not in Jesus Christ and God the Father....it's the mystery of the resurrection that is the stumbling block for you... you really can't prove it NEVER happened...not without semantics....and I don't buy into the semantics argument...you can't prove to me it DIDN'T happen so YOU have no argument.

"1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews ask for a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom;
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness.
1Co 1:24 But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men."(MKJV)

Here is your biblical history of Islam, it's beginnings....

"Gen 16:15 Hagar gave Abram a son. Abram named him Ishmael.
Gen 16:16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar gave him his son, Ishmael.
Gen 17:16 I'll bless her--yes! I'll give you a son by her! Oh, how I'll bless her! Nations will come from her; kings of nations will come from her."
Gen 17:17 Abraham fell flat on his face. And then he laughed, thinking, "Can a hundred-year-old man father a son? And can Sarah, at ninety years, have a baby?"
Gen 17:18 Recovering, Abraham said to God, "Oh, keep Ishmael alive and well before you!"
Gen 17:19 But God said, "That's not what I mean. Your wife, Sarah, will have a baby, a son. Name him Isaac (Laughter). I'll establish my covenant with him and his descendants, a covenant that lasts forever.
Gen 17:20 "And Ishmael? Yes, I heard your prayer for him. I'll also bless him; I'll make sure he has plenty of children--a huge family. He'll father twelve princes; I'll make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 ***But I'll establish my covenant with Isaac*** whom Sarah will give you about this time next year."
Gen 25:17 Ishmael lived 137 years. When he breathed his last and died he was buried with his family.
Gen 25:18 His children settled down all the way from Havilah near Egypt eastward to Shur in the direction of Assyria. The Ishmaelites didn't get along with any of their kin.
Gal 4:21 Tell me now, you who have become so enamored with the law: Have you paid close attention to that law?
Gal 4:22 Abraham, remember, had two sons: one by the slave woman and one by the free woman.
Gal 4:23 The son of the slave woman was born by human connivance; the son of the free woman was born by God's promise.
Gal 4:24 This illustrates the very thing we are dealing with now. The two births represent two ways of being in relationship with God. One is from Mount Sinai in Arabia.
Gal 4:25 It corresponds with what is now going on in Jerusalem--a slave life, producing slaves as offspring. This is the way of Hagar.
Gal 4:26 In contrast to that, there is an invisible Jerusalem, a free Jerusalem, and she is our mother--this is the way of Sarah.
Gal 4:27 Remember what Isaiah wrote: Rejoice, barren woman who bears no children, shout and cry out, woman who has no birth pangs, Because the children of the barren woman now surpass the children of the chosen woman.
Gal 4:28 Isn't it clear, friends, that you, like Isaac, are children of promise?
Gal 4:29 In the days of Hagar and Sarah, the child who came from faithless connivance (Ishmael) harassed the child who came--empowered by the Spirit--from the faithful promise (Isaac). Isn't it clear that the harassment you are now experiencing from the Jerusalem heretics follows that old pattern?
Gal 4:30 There is a Scripture that tells us what to do: "Expel the slave mother with her son, ***for the slave son will not inherit with the free son.***"
Gal 4:31 Isn't that conclusive? We are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." (MSG)


"1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in Heaven for you
1Pe 1:5 by the power of God, having been kept through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time;"(MSG)

Here is a scripture NOT written by Paul...since you don't like him....of course...but written by Peter about God raising Jesus from the DEAD....

and this is said by Jesus himself regarding resurrection:

" Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them (the religious teachers, Pharisees and Saduccees, hmmm...the "scribes" maybe), You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.
Mat 22:31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:33 And when the crowd heard this, they were astonished at His doctrine."

notice that Jesus doesn't say the God of Ishmael?

and another written by Luke:

"Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit upon his throne,
Act 2:31 seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption,
Act 2:32 God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses."

Do you want to continue? I could go all day and all night with this...

One last one because I want to...and I know it is Paul, but it is becuase of your very dislike of him that I use his testimony so much...because I believe whole heartedly that Jesus Christ, the resurrected Son of God changed Pauls life so dramatically that he had to spend the rest of it explaining it to eveyone else...

"Rom 6:7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
Rom 6:8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10 For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God."(MKJV)

One last comment to one of yours:

" Paul was the murderer of Christians. MASS MURDERER> When he realised he could not break the spirit of the followers of Christ he introduced his own version of Christianity. One that also appealed to the idol worshipping Romans and Greeks."

This is the VERY ESSENCE of Evangelistic ministries!!!!!....reaching the unreachable sometimes even using their own beliefs to turn them to the Lord...Paul didn't make up his own version of Christianity, he made it relatable...

"1Co 3:20 The Master sees through the smoke screens of the know-it-alls." (MSG)

And I didn't delete everything, just the inflamitory language in your post...

AND the question raised by Lady valkirye is almost a year old...she doesn't even pop in here anymore...

Jenna, I'm just here to add to your post, not disagree with any of it (quite the opposite in fact!)

Paul didn't start preaching Jesus because he couldn't get anywhere preaching against Him, (come on, under that line of thinking the pharisees obviously won, because Jesus was killed for his preachings!) Paul started preaching for Jesus because the Lord made THAT much of an impact on his life! But you don't like that explanation; because as much as you say you respect Jesus, you don't believe in Him.

How can you have respect for a man that you don't believe 90% of what He preached? There are only 3 options for Jesus to have made all the claims that he made; He was a liar (you wouldn't respect a habitual liar), He was insane (how can you respect the ravings of a lunatic?), or He was who He said He WAS!

There is also the fact that much of Christianity is based on FAITH. God could give everyone concrete proof if He wanted to. But then, how would we be worthy of Him? As Moses was leading the Israelites away from Egypt God gave His people signs everyday, and they still turned from Him.
He asks 3 simple things of us. To admit our sin adn repent of them, to have faith to Jesus was His son and died and rose again for us, and to accept Him as our Lord and redeem our sin. We can NEVER make up for every sin we commit. I don't think we could ever even remember every sin we commited; and God knows this. So He showed His grace and sent a 1 time, last for all sacrificial lamb- the new covenant. You can argue semantics and words all day long; but it boils down to FAITH.

In reference to BiblBasixEditor's comment, Im sorry i dont want to go into a debate on whos religion is extreem and who is lead away by satan... Theres no need to start throwing insults. If you cant debate in a friendly manner than I guess your the one with extreemist views. If you would however I wouldnt mind hearing what exactly is extreem about Islam.

And in reply to BiblBasixEditor as well as BellaAsthmaHost, I do believe in Jesus!!! 100%!!!!
The only difference between us is that I refuse to believe that the bible contains the purest form of his teachings.

We Muslims believe...
He was concieved and given birth to in no less than a miracle
We believe He was son to the Virgin Mary (Whom we regard as being the most pious woman in heaven)
We believe He performed miracles to cure the blind and the leppers
We believe that he came with the message from God and that he taught it
We believe He was THE MESSIAH (Or translated as the Christ from the Greek word Christos)
We believe in his second coming
We believe he will fight the anti-Christ (Also known as the Dejjal in the east)

So what exactly do you think makes me different from you? I believe just like you... The things I have mentioned to you are not believed by most christians in the western world any longer.
But WE BELIEVE.
HOWEVER... what we dont believe is that the bible is the authentic source of his teachings. The verses conflict with each other, some of the translations omit verses some add more. ANd how can we prove this is the word of God? WE CANT!!
Simple as can be said. There is no basis of belief. Before you have faith you have to have evidence. You are just blindly accepting the bible as the word of God without any evidence. Infact all the evidence is against this.
And further all the evidence Ive seen to discredit its authenticity is given by christians. If I have said anything it is merely what I have seen repeated from your own scholars.

So who is being extreem? I would say your being extreem by closing your mind to the possiblity that you dont actually have the answer to anything at all.

earlier you quoted the fact that your version of Jeremiah 8:8 says something different than AAAAAAAAAALLLLL THE BIBLE VERSIONs in all the other bibles. So why doesnt it make it so clear in all the bibles?
Maybe that one is the authentic bible. maybe that is the one that is Gods word? Wheres the original scripture in the original tongue? Did you know that no 2 ancient manuscripts from which the bible is translated from match? They all differ. Christian scholars will tell you this.
In fact this debate has been done and dusted before. Christian scholars have come up against Muslim scholars and have always walked away not able to prove a point because you have no basis to make an arguement.

Why not try looking for the debates of "The Great" Jimmy swaggart and Ahmad Deedat? OR look for the works of Dr Zakir Naik.

My brothers and sisters dont close your minds and accept everything as the truth until you really have a good look at it. Ruling out what may be the truth is extreemism!

I'm not a bible scholar, I'm just a mom, who came to know Jesus as my Savior for the simple fact that it hit me one day; If I didn't know Jesus - how could I ever teach my children about Him, and how could I live with the thought that their eternal salvation might be missed, because I didn't do my job as a Mom. Then in my journey, I came to know Him for my own reasons, and realized I needed Him just as much if not more than anyone else.

I guess what I was trying to say in my last post was, I don't need proof that the Bible is God's Word. This is one of those areas where I believe faith comes in. You seem to feel you need eveidence before faith, I feel faith is what comes in lack of evidence. This is what I was trying to point out - this is part and parcel of the Christian faith.

Also, I agree with everything you wrote about Jesus, but you left out a few things that I believe.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus is one part of the Trilogy: Father, Son, Holy Ghost
Jesus not only died on the cross for our sins, but was raised from the dead on the third day - in body and soul.

I understand you see this as being extreme, but we are told there is but one way to heaven. To some that might sound narrow-minded, but on the other hand, it sounds extrememly fair. Because that way no one is held up to various "controls" or "tests" to get into heaven. They just have to follow God's instructions.

I understand your beliefs. I am aware that the only basis of christianity is faith! There is definately no sound evidence.

I respect that as a mum you are trying to teach your kids what you believe is the route to heaven. That is a beautiful thing.

There are many things that I would accept as just faith. However when something is shrouded with so much doubt and the book that is "the word of God" contains so many errors which some Christian sects claim to be over 50,000, I find it hard to just have faith in believe.

Everything about the new testament has a question mark all over it.
The three days of the resurection has 4 different accounts and 4 different stories, same with the tomb of Christ (PBUH), none of his desciples saw him crusifide they all fled, the 4 gospel accounts all conflict with each other, every single bible scholar there is will tell you that man has mingled with the scripture, There is no quote from Jesus' mouth (PBUH) to say I am son of God or worship me.

YET we are led to believe that it is all true because the guy that was slaying Christians for fun (Paul) says so.
He writes books that contradict the gospels and adds them to the new testament and suddenly the HITLER of his time has become a saint. Thats a bit extreem!!! lol
On top of that all the old testament says worship one god and dont create idols. Yet paul comes along and says 3 Gods for the price of 1 and all you have to do is believe to get a one way ticket. Its really not a question of faith. its a question of logic!

I understand you are not a scholar. Nor am I. I cant claim to be. But I have been studying the bible for some years now and I find it plain to see its not what it is claimed to be.

If you are not a scholar and are not willing to study the roots of your religion you are walking what could be into hell. I am not saying you ARE im saying you COULD be. Because you are only using faith to cover the mistakes of 2 thousand years of mistakes.

There is a very good book called "The Dead Sea Scrolls. The Gospel of Barnabas and the New testament" by MA Youseff.
Check it out. I highly consider it.

I know I spoke with you privately, but i want to post publicly, too. I am not unwilling to study the Bible and it's history, it is just that I am just now getting started! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And that's a lot of history to cover.

But, for the sake of debate, why is believing in the Trinity "walking into hell" (possibly)?

Or is it because I'm not following every rule set forth in the Old Testament? (Do you still offer up sacrifices?) - I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but if you insist on adhering to one rule, then you must abide by them all, right? Or if not, then who chooses?

Beyond that, then we get into; Well whose religion is right then? You say Islam, I say Christianity, Arius says Wicca, Samten - Buddhism.

As far as the four gospels, of course they don't match up exactly; they were seen from the point of view of 4 different men- 4 men with completely different social values instilled into them before Jesus came into their lives. That doesn't just disappear because of Him.

If you are at a car accident, and you ask 4 different people what happened immediately afterwards, you are still going to get 4 varied storied, depending on where they were standing, what they were doing, how they were feeling. We have very little idea of what was going thru each of the men's minds when they witnessed the crucifixion; grief, terror, guilt(?), shame, anger, disbelief (like in I can't believe this is happening), helplessness, etc. That has to affect the way a person sees an event. We, and they, are human and bound by these bodies with these emotions. And that had to be THE MOST emotional time in their lives!

But I will study some more, and get back to you. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTW - Jenna, if mine & Kibrisli debate bothers you on this forum, please let me know. It is YOUR forum, after all. <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure we can take it somewhere else if need be. This discussion does seem to be at least in the lines of Bible basics, though (kind of) <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Thanks!

kibrisli7


1. There were two of Jesus' disciples present at his crucifixion...John and Mary

2. Jesus is LORD...Alpha and Omega...God and man simultaniously

3. You said "Before you have faith you have to have evidence. You are just blindly accepting the bible as the word of God without any evidence" You need a dictionary...this is the very essence of faith....believing in what you cannot see...Billy Graham put it best for me "We can feel the wind, see the effects of the wind, but no one can SEE the wind...but yet we are sure that it is there..." This is faith

You are so close..but your own intelligence trips you up. Let go of it, if your pride will let you, and just accept Jesus for what the Bible says about him and what your heart tells you is true. Then you will find that the very truth you seek will set you free from the constraints of your own mind....You can't explain God, you can only recieve His love...Your trying to fit God and jesus into your own finite existance...God can't be squeezed into our small universe, He us bigger and grander than we will ever know...thus the mystery of God...You either accept or reject...theres no half way...

In answer to your question about the authenticity of the Bible, kibrisli7, the problem with the discussion is that I DO accept the Bible JUST AS IT IS TODAY as God's divine Word. I don't believe it is corrupted as you believe...that is the basic difference....

I think everyone needs to stop and answer this question first so that kibrisli7 will know where everyone is coming from before continuing with this discussion...

Michelle,
I in no way want this debate to end it is very interesting and you are handling yourself beautifully....I'm just jumping in every now and then to put my own two cents worth in...:)

Firstly Michelle, Great answer. I am happy you have looked at it in such a way.
4 different accounts... However your own Christian scholars will tell you that the 4 gospels were not actually written by the 4 disciples that they are attributed to.
We dont actually know who has written them! But we do know it is not actually likely to be the 4 desciples Mark, Luke, Matthew and John!

You can only learn this if you keep up your research. I am sure you will my sister!


And Jenna... Lol
i dunno where to start. OK OK OK I get you believe in the trinity. I understand that I need to just Let the truth into my heart and let Jesus set me free... But you are telling me the bible is devine word of God, However you are agreeing with me no doubt that there are many different versions of the bible. In the last 500 years how many different versions have been published?? In 1952 they published the RSV and that omitted things that were not actually found in the earlier ancient manuscripts! It says so in the preface!!!!!!!!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!! HOW MUCH MORE DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT!????
IT is obvious someone or some people have added some porkys!! (Yes i can speak cockney LOL)

How about the catholic version of the bible with 7 more added books to it? IS that devine with a hint more of devineness?

How about the research done by Christians themselves that found 50,000 errors in the bible? Thats a lot for a devine God dont you think?
"God is not the author of confusion"!! (1 Cor 14:33)

If you want me to so readily and blindly accept the trinity why are you not willing to swing the other way also?
What if it really isnt me that is too proud to accept the truth? How can I accept something as true knowing that thousands of errors prove it otherwise?
Why dont you try to read the holy Quran and than tell me where the errors are? Try to show me what about it proves to you its not from God.
We dont rely on accounts from people that books could "Possibly" have been written by.
We believe the Quran is the word of God and we dont attribute authors as its "C0-writer"

Lol I almost forgot..
ontop of all everything u mentioned you also state that I cannot comprehend that God is infinite and how IIIIII am the one that should stop trying to fit God into my finite existence!!!

HEY WAKE UP!!! your the one trying to make God out to be in the form of a man. Your the one trying to say God had to manifest himself into a human form and than kill himself to save us!! Is that finite or what???
Im the one telling YOU to stop believing this... Yes God is infinite. We cannot possibly comprehend what he looks, feels and smells like!
He is so allmighty, why would he need to put himself into human form and than die to save us? This idea is beyond the belief of my 6 month old cousin.

"He is Allah the ONE, the self sufficiant,
He beggets not, Nor is He beggotten,
And there is none comparable to him" (The holy Quran 112)

Allah! [none has the right to be worshipped but He], the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them [His creatures] in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter. And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His thrown extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, above everything, the Most Great. (The holy Quran 2:225)

This verses from the Holy book is a description of God. A description far more deserving of his majesty than the picture you are painting with your finite mind.

Kibrilis - I received this story in an e-mail the other day, and I thought it was a beautiful example of why God would "demean" himself to come down in human form to save us; I'd like to share it with you (and everyone else!) <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"]There was once a man who didn't believe in God, and he didn't hesitate to let others know how he felt about religion and religious holidays.

His wife, however, did believe, and she raised their children to also have faith in God and Jesus, despite his disparaging comments.

One snowy eve, his wife was taking their children to service in the farm community in which they lived.
They were to talk about Jesus' birth. She asked him to come, but he refused. "That story is nonsense!" he said. "Why would God lower Himself to come to Earth as a man? That's ridiculous!"

So she and the children left, and he stayed home.

A while later, the winds grew stronger and the snow turned into a blizzard. As the man looked out the window, all he saw was a blinding snowstorm. He sat down to relax before the fire for the evening. Then he heard a loud thump. Something had hit the window. He looked out, but couldn't see more than a few feet. When the snow let up a little, he ventured outside to see what could have been beating on his window.

In the field near his house he saw a flock of wild geese. Apparently they had been flying south for the winter when they got caught in the snowstorm and couldn't go on. They were lost and stranded on his farm, with no food or shelter. They just flapped their wings and flew around the field in low circles, blindly and aimlessly. A couple of them had flown into his window, it seemed.

The man felt sorry for the geese and wanted to help them. The barn would be a great place for them to stay, he thought. It's warm and safe; surely they could spend the night and wait out the storm. So he walked over to the barn and opened the doors wide, then watched and waited, hoping they would notice the open barn and go inside.

But the geese just fluttered around aimlessly and didn't seem to notice the barn or realize what it could mean for them. The man tried to get their attention, but that just seemed to scare them, and they moved further away. He went into the house and came with some bread, broke it up, and made a bread crumb trail leading to the barn. They still didn't catch on.

Now he was getting frustrated. He got behind them and tried to shoo them toward the barn, but they only got more scared and scattered in every direction except toward the barn. Nothing he did could get them to go into the barn where they would be warm and safe.

"Why don't they follow me?!" he exclaimed. "Can't they see this is the only place where they can survive the storm?"

He thought for a moment and realized that they just wouldn't follow a human. "If only I were a goose, then I could save them," he said out loud. Then he had an idea. He went into barn, got one of his own geese, and carried it in his arms as he circled around behind the flock of wild geese.

He then released it. His goose flew through the flock and straight into the barn -- and one-by-one, the other geese followed it to safety.

He stood silently for a moment as the words he had spoken a few minutes earlier replayed in his mind: "If only I were a goose, then I could save them!" Then he thought about what he had said to his wife earlier. "Why would God want to be like us? That's ridiculous!"

Suddenly it all made sense. That is what God had done. We were like the geese--blind, lost, perishing. God had His Son become like us so He could show us the way and save us.

As the winds and blinding snow died down, his soul became quiet and pondered this wonderful thought. Suddenly he understood why Christ had come. Years of doubt and disbelief vanished with the passing storm. He fell to his knees in the snow, and prayed his first prayer:

"Thank You, God, for coming in human form to get me out of the storm!" [/color]

I'm sorry I don't know who the author is. But God had been trying for years to get the attention of the Israelites, and they had been growing farther and farther from him (look at the journey of 40 years in the wilderness. How many times did God provide for them? And how many times did they turn around and fall into whining and complaining and saying God wasn't enough?) Jesus was His answer, to come to us personally, to experience what we experience, to say "Yes my child, I have been there, too."